115 réponses à ce sujet

[Kartikeya]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think Merrill is basically right and the authors don't want the player to understand that, so the put the right answer into a character that they then paint as a complete twit.  The problem for the authors of DA2 is that Merrill (and certainly not the Merrill in DAO) is NOT a twit when it comes to magic.

Spirits tend to reflect the human emotions they embody.  Merrill herself quite correctly says that it's stupid to blame a spirit of desire for being what it merely is....an embodiment of desire.  Spirits that don't try to activily possess people don't do it because they are benevolent.  They do so because they are incurious at best and contemptious of mortals at worst.  In DAA Justice was becoming increasingly "demonic" the longer he was away from the fade which meant that Anders offering to be his host was an especially stupid thing to do....and it's a mistake that only happened because Anders foolishly believed (because of his strong Andrastian faith) that there was such a thing as a 'good' spirit.  It's exactly this sort of mistake that Merrill would never make.

Merrill understands that she is putting herself at risk of becoming an abomination and asks her dearest friend/most respected rival (and often lover) to "take care of her" if that happens/  Merrill walks into this with her eyes wide open understanding the risk.  That puts her above pretty much all the other mages in Kirkwall, mage-Hawke included.

-Polaris

I'm confused. The writers, who wrote Merrill and invented this whole world, and therefore have determined exactly how it is...don't want Merrill to be right? Don't want the player to think she's right? They wrote her.  I'm pretty sure they don't have an agenda against their own fictional creations.

[Tigerman123]

IanPolaris wrote...

I wouldn't take Justice's unvarished word on that.  In DAA Anders challenges Justice on exactly this same point (aren't demons nothing more than spirits with particularly 'colorful' personalities) and Justice flies off the handle and gets very angry with Anders....but never denies it.

Sure, Demons are spirits defined as such by their actions, ie they're selfish serial killers, rapists etc, just like there are humans who do those things, except that spirits are dominated by whatever abstract concept they're an avatar of, so they have less free will.

YES I am talking about the same Merrill.  I realy hate how the writers try to picture the one person in the story that understands and can use blood-magic responsibly AND understand spirits better than perhaps all other mages in Kirkwall combined and tries to make her into some 'dumb blonde'.  The anti-mage tone in DA2 is really obnoxious.

How is her understanding of spirits better than anyone else, because she clever and accepts that there's risk?  All blood mages do.  Uldred was cleverer and more powerful than Merrill and I doubt he intended to end up the way he did.  The only ways to treat with demons in relative safety are to force them to obey your wishes, trick them, or bargin with them.  Merrill couldn't force the pride demon to surrender knowledge through force, she's not not as cunning as it is, and she has nothing that she would be willing to trade, such as other mortals, or releasing it.   So what did she think that the demon was getting out of their deal?

In the end she was incorrect in her assumption that the demon wanted to possess her, and was only saved from releasing a pride demon in the alienage by Marethari's intervention.

[TJPags]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
That's because the circle system as it's presented (and certanly like it's run in most of Thedas) is EVIL.  There is no real nuance about it.  It's evil.
-Polaris

Its as evil as the draft.  Its the same situation.

When the system works, its not nearly as oppressive as its made out to be.  Wynne has no trouble getting permission to come and go more or less as she pleases.   Other mages are treated similarly.   The problem for mages like Anders is that he doesn't want to ask permission, so he keeps running away.   Going AWOL.   So the MPs bring him back to camp.  And, because he's a known troublemaker, he doesn't get his leave passe signed...   endless circle.

Greagoir and Irving are clearly friends.   Greagoir just takes Irving's word that the circle is cleansed; takes it over Cullen's, for that matter.

Kirkwall's Circle is the complete opposite.  A blood mage as first enchanter and a psycho as Knight Commander.  And even then, Bethany comments its not nearly as bad as she thought.

The problem we face is that we are ALWAYS seeing the Circle from the perspective of the renegades.   If you spend all your time adventuring with militias, John Dillingers, and outlaws, its obvious the American government is corrupt and oppressive...

Don't forget that Finn (the mage from WH, think that's his name) also gets to leave when he asks.

I really see Anders and all these blood mage abominations as little children who just don't want to have to follow any rules.

[Bayz]

Vormaerin wrote...

Its as evil as the draft.  Its the same situation.

When the system works, its not nearly as oppressive as its made out to be.  Wynne has no trouble getting permission to come and go more or less as she pleases.   Other mages are treated similarly.   The problem for mages like Anders is that he doesn't want to ask permission, so he keeps running away.   Going AWOL.   So the MPs bring him back to camp.  And, because he's a known troublemaker, he doesn't get his leave passe signed...   endless circle.

Greagoir and Irving are clearly friends.   Greagoir just takes Irving's word that the circle is cleansed; takes it over Cullen's, for that matter.

Kirkwall's Circle is the complete opposite.  A blood mage as first enchanter and a psycho as Knight Commander.  And even then, Bethany comments its not nearly as bad as she thought.

The problem we face is that we are ALWAYS seeing the Circle from the perspective of the renegades.   If you spend all your time adventuring with militias, John Dillingers, and outlaws, its obvious the American government is corrupt and oppressive...

That actually bugs me a lot too

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Is it safer? We have mages resorting to blood magic and becoming abominations because of the Chantry controlled Circles. We have a brutal system where mages are being raped, tortured, being made tranquil, and killed in order to enforce the status quo. We have the templars torturing a Dalish child for information on the apostate Feynriel. We have the Knight-Commander order the genocide of all the Circle mages in Kirkwall for something all of them are innocent of.

The Kirkwall Circle is clearly completely corrupt, though I don't buy the "Templars made me do it" argument entirely.  Orsino was supporting blood magic research that had nothing to do with the Templar issue.   Most of the blood mages want to rule the world, not just squish templars and be normal citizens.

Neither Grand Cleric Elthina nor the Divine supports what's going on in Kirkwall, though Elthina is oddly powerless or too passive to do much about it.

The mages who do just want to be normal are the "irrelevant" characters that you actually can save and help get out of Kirkwall.

[AlexXIV]

Spirit and demon are two words for the same thing. Also in our world btw, if people believe in them. In western culture demons do usually have a negative ring to it, while spirits are rather positive. I think people like to believe that for everything that happens some higher power is responsible. So the logical thing would be to seperate supernatural beings in good and evil.

DA2 I think shows that all spirits are just as dangerous. Merrill is pointing it out as well and it makes sense. Anders is possessed by a spirit, which corrupted the spirit and has some bad impact on Anders as well. So all spirits, good or evil, are dangerous to deal with. They are not 'creative' life forms, so they only think in one direction if you want so. The only time a spirit ever changes is when it gets corrupted, obvously by consorting with mortals.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 avril 2011 - 01:00 .

[Bayz]

Well the fade is supposed to be thinner in Kirkwall so...

[LobselVith8]

Vormaerin wrote...

The Kirkwall Circle is clearly completely corrupt, though I don't buy the "Templars made me do it" argument entirely.  Orsino was supporting blood magic research that had nothing to do with the Templar issue.   Most of the blood mages want to rule the world, not just squish templars and be normal citizens.

Neither Grand Cleric Elthina nor the Divine supports what's going on in Kirkwall, though Elthina is oddly powerless or too passive to do much about it.

The mages who do just want to be normal are the "irrelevant" characters that you actually can save and help get out of Kirkwall.

I'm not claiming all mages turn to abusing blood magic or becoming abominations because of the Chantry controlled Circles, but we see many do. In fact, we have two mages who are sane before going into the Gallows and mentally disturbed when they leave (and one of them was raised in the Ferelden Circle). It has been acknowledged by the devs that the Ferelden Circle is the most liberal of all the fourteen Circles in Thedas, and we see the brutality and cruelty that mages can endure from one of the harshest. We have characters condemning the Circles as slavery. We can listen to Alain tell us how a templar is raping him in Act II and we can hear how a man is wondering why his formerly romanced and now tranquil counterpart can't remember him as she coldly tells him that only Knight-Captain Cullen can command her. If the Circles were as wonderful as people claim, then there wouldn't be a continential revolution from all the Circles in Thedas breaking free from Chantry and templar control.

[AlexXIV]

Vormaerin wrote...
The mages who do just want to be normal are the "irrelevant" characters that you actually can save and help get out of Kirkwall.

Yep, innocents are always irrelevant.

[The Baconer]

arcelonious wrote...

I particularly like this conversation between Merrill and Anders:

Merrill: Are you alright?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be alright?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls.
Merrill: Anders...there is no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Dragon Age II wrote...

Pride: You think this elf, with her innocent face, would turn down a demon's offer? She didn't before.
Pride: How 'bout it? Would you take what I offered the boy? Scion of the Dalish! Saviour of elvenkind!
Merrill: Can you... Do that?
Pride: I am the greatest of my kind! Whatever tricks your little pet has taught you pale in comparison.
Hawke: All spirits are dangerous, huh? You understood that, huh?
Merrill: I... Cannot put you ahead of the fate of my people.
Pride: You took my dreamer! Now you will take his place!

[Abispa]

Justice said in DA:A that the difference between spirits and demons is that spirits have no desire to leave the Fade and demons desire to live in the "real" world through mortals. It is inferred that all spirits of Justice must be spirits and all spirits of Sloth must be demons, but it was never explicitly stated. Maybe there are Justice spirits who desire to enforce their philosophy on mortals and Sloth spirits who are too lazy to bother; in that case a Justice could be a demon and and Sloth could be a spirit. Either way, nobody in the DA universe has a complete understanding of the Fade, so the contradictory information on the Fade could viewed as understandable speculation by various groups and not bad writing by Bioware.

[AlexXIV]

Clearly Justice desired to stay in the mortal world or why would he join with Anders.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 avril 2011 - 01:15 .

[IanPolaris]

Kartikeya wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think Merrill is basically right and the authors don't want the player to understand that, so the put the right answer into a character that they then paint as a complete twit.  The problem for the authors of DA2 is that Merrill (and certainly not the Merrill in DAO) is NOT a twit when it comes to magic.

Spirits tend to reflect the human emotions they embody.  Merrill herself quite correctly says that it's stupid to blame a spirit of desire for being what it merely is....an embodiment of desire.  Spirits that don't try to activily possess people don't do it because they are benevolent.  They do so because they are incurious at best and contemptious of mortals at worst.  In DAA Justice was becoming increasingly "demonic" the longer he was away from the fade which meant that Anders offering to be his host was an especially stupid thing to do....and it's a mistake that only happened because Anders foolishly believed (because of his strong Andrastian faith) that there was such a thing as a 'good' spirit.  It's exactly this sort of mistake that Merrill would never make.

Merrill understands that she is putting herself at risk of becoming an abomination and asks her dearest friend/most respected rival (and often lover) to "take care of her" if that happens/  Merrill walks into this with her eyes wide open understanding the risk.  That puts her above pretty much all the other mages in Kirkwall, mage-Hawke included.

-Polaris

I'm confused. The writers, who wrote Merrill and invented this whole world, and therefore have determined exactly how it is...don't want Merrill to be right? Don't want the player to think she's right? They wrote her.  I'm pretty sure they don't have an agenda against their own fictional creations.

It's not that confusing.  The writers (esp DG) wrote themselves into a box log ago in the Dragon Age universe.  The only way they get out and get more people to support their "good guys" (Templars) is to try to either rewrite the rules of the universe (chancy) or discredit them.  Merrill is written to discredit them.

As for the Circle system being evil, by pretty much any Western definition it is.  You are taking away people's humanity for what they might do and putting them into the hands of such good guys as K-Captain Cullen who don't even aknowledge that mages should be treated with even basic human decency!  The Kirkwell system IS what the Circle system is all about when all the "optional nice stuff" is distilled out.  If the rest of you can't see it's evil, then you are beyond help (and frankly so are the writers).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

Clearly Justice desired to stay in the mortal world or why would he join with Anders.

Indeed, and this is one of many signs (and we see them in DAA) that Justice in the real world was becoming more and more demonic everyday.  Anders should have seen this (and did but didn't put two and two together the way say....Merrill would have), and is now an abomination.  Don't let te fru-fru fool you.  Anders IS an abomination.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

It's not that confusing.  The writers (esp DG) wrote themselves into a box log ago in the Dragon Age universe.  The only way they get out and get more people to support their "good guys" (Templars) is to try to either rewrite the rules of the universe (chancy) or discredit them.  Merrill is written to discredit them.

I saw Merrill as an intelligent mage who understood the risks she took regarding blood magic and the Eluvian she restored, if somewhat socially inept because of her lack of experience in dealing with people. I understand what you about the treatment of mages because of how we got the sledgehammer in Act III regarding the mages, but I'm not certain that Meredith ordering the "Final Solution" against all the mages in Kirkwall for something they were completely innocent of helped.

[Iosev]

The Baconer wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

I particularly like this conversation between Merrill and Anders:

Merrill: Are you alright?
Anders: I nearly killed an innocent girl. How could I be alright?
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: You're sorry? For me? This could be you! You could be the next monster threatening helpless girls.
Merrill: Anders...there is no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
Merrill: All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.

Dragon Age II wrote...

Pride: You think this elf, with her innocent face, would turn down a demon's offer? She didn't before.
Pride: How 'bout it? Would you take what I offered the boy? Scion of the Dalish! Saviour of elvenkind!
Merrill: Can you... Do that?
Pride: I am the greatest of my kind! Whatever tricks your little pet has taught you pale in comparison.
Hawke: All spirits are dangerous, huh? You understood that, huh?
Merrill: I... Cannot put you ahead of the fate of my people.
Pride: You took my dreamer! Now you will take his place!

That shows exactly why spirits are dangerous, even with her knowledge that spirts are dangerous, she was still manipulated by the Pride demon.

She specifically asks Hawke to accompany her when she confronts the demon on Sundermount because she wants Hawke to kill her if she becomes an abomination.  She is aware of the danger, and that she herself is not immune to it.  Very different from Anders, who thought that it would be alright merging with a spirit, since he thought that Justice was benevolent.

Modifié par arcelonious, 02 avril 2011 - 01:40 .

[Corwyn]

IanPolaris wrote...


Merrill understands that she is putting herself at risk of becoming an abomination and asks her dearest friend/most respected rival (and often lover) to "take care of her" if that happens/  Merrill walks into this with her eyes wide open understanding the risk.  That puts her above pretty much all the other mages in Kirkwall, mage-Hawke included.

-Polaris

I think you're probably right about Merrill having the best understanding of what spirits are and she certainly is clear-eyed about what the most likely outcome of her actions are i.e. demonic possesion and/or death.  This is exactly why I don't think she's the wisest though.  

With everything she knows she is still willing to go through with this over a mirror that most of her clan tells her is better left in the past.  I understand that she wants to reclaim her history but there are other and better ways she could do this, she's willing to risk demonic possesion, which risks not only her but her loved ones, over an object.  Anders may not have been much better but at least he did what he did because he thought it would save a friend.

This makes it sound like I disliked Merrill and liked Anders when it's actually the opposite but I just felt in this case Merrill should have known better precisely because she wasn't as naive as the others about spirits but she still went through with it.  

[Abispa]

If you're desperate and convinced of huge rewards, as Merrill is, you're willing to do justify any risk. It's kind of like the unemployed man who blows his last five bucks on the lottery. There's a HUGE payoff, but the odds against winning are astronomical. And he thinks, "What the hell am I going to be able to do with five bucks anyway?" Merrill probably knows that working with the demon is going to be a long shot, but if she is possessed and killed by Hawke, what is she losing? She's a pariah to the Dalish, a recluse to the Elves of the Alienage, and just some Elf girlfriend among the Kirkwall Human community.

[White_Buffalo94]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

The Kirkwall Circle is clearly completely corrupt, though I don't buy the "Templars made me do it" argument entirely.  Orsino was supporting blood magic research that had nothing to do with the Templar issue.   Most of the blood mages want to rule the world, not just squish templars and be normal citizens.

Neither Grand Cleric Elthina nor the Divine supports what's going on in Kirkwall, though Elthina is oddly powerless or too passive to do much about it.

The mages who do just want to be normal are the "irrelevant" characters that you actually can save and help get out of Kirkwall.

I'm not claiming all mages turn to abusing blood magic or becoming abominations because of the Chantry controlled Circles, but we see many do. In fact, we have two mages who are sane before going into the Gallows and mentally disturbed when they leave (and one of them was raised in the Ferelden Circle). It has been acknowledged by the devs that the Ferelden Circle is the most liberal of all the fourteen Circles in Thedas, and we see the brutality and cruelty that mages can endure from one of the harshest. We have characters condemning the Circles as slavery. We can listen to Alain tell us how a templar is raping him in Act II and we can hear how a man is wondering why his formerly romanced and now tranquil counterpart can't remember him as she coldly tells him that only Knight-Captain Cullen can command her. If the Circles were as wonderful as people claim, then there wouldn't be a continential revolution from all the Circles in Thedas breaking free from Chantry and templar control.

when does alain say he was raped? as well as the other things?

[White_Buffalo94]

AlexXIV wrote...

Clearly Justice desired to stay in the mortal world or why would he join with Anders.

True, throughout Awakening, you can see him change from righteous spirit to an envious spirit.

[Camenae]

AlexXIV wrote...

Clearly Justice desired to stay in the mortal world or why would he join with Anders.

Agree.  Also when you took Anders into the Fade in Night Terrors...I thought Justice was trapped outside the Fade?  That was the excuse he gave for not going back there?  Well now you're in it...get out of Anders and give me my boyfriend back?

Anyway I fail to see the difference between spirits and demons.  A rose by any other name...

[LobselVith8]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

when does alain say he was raped? as well as the other things?

Alain mentions it in Act II. The other conversation also takes place in the Gallows.

[Oneiropolos]

White Buffalo, it isn't expressly said what occurs to Alain, but he does speak of a Templar entering his room at night and him being threatened into staying silent on it. So, I do think we ARE supposed to draw the conclusions on that.

But I think people are being way too Anders-ized in their conclusions. The Gallows is hellish for a circle, and while Anders WAS put in solitary confinement in the Fereldan circle for continuing to try to escape, the fact is, even a mage in DAII comments on you being from Fereldan and how she's heard the circle is a lot nicer there. Even Starkhaven's circle was burnt down, which Sebastian references when he lists people who his PARENTS WOULD HAVE RELIED ON as well as the Templars. In other words, the implication is that the king and queen of Starkhaven at least had a friendly rapport with the mages, much like we also see echoed where the circle of magi sends mages to fight at Ostogar in the first game. This whole "Down with all templars everywhere/they're all evil" mentality that Anders had is unfortunately fueled by the fact that things really are screwed up in Kirkwall.. on BOTH the Templar and Mage side.

Anders never dealt well with being in the circle, but there are legitimate abuses within the Kirkwall circle.

Back on the subject at hand, Merrill seeing the risks clearly just makes her more the fool for wanting to make deals with the demons. Anders should have seen the risks in Justice, but you have to remember that Justice was his FRIEND at that point, and that the Warden and Anders MET Justice when Justice was in the fade trying to take down someone evil from imprisoning an entire village in almost an eternal hell. It's the same way people try to justify Anders now... because the player met Anders before he killed innocents. And I don't mean just the Grand Cleric. Remember there was burning debris over the entire town as a result of the explosion. You really think no children got caught in that? The fact is, Anders did something horrific, but people want to find a way for it not to seem so horrific because they became attached to him. Anders had only seen Justice as someone who basically wanted to do the right thing at all times. Justice's corruption may have been slightly hinted at, but really, he doesn't WANT to be stuck in Kristoff's corpse. And blame Nathaniel. Go read the dialogue between Justice and Nathaniel on the Wiki:
-------
Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.
Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?
Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing?
Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no demon.
Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.
-------
Another conversation, this time between Anders and Justice, sad in retrospect:
Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
Justice: I should certainly hope not.
Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.
------

Justice makes a clear distinction that even he is worried about what defines a spirit or demon, but I do believe from what happens when you take Justice into the fade and he becomes the dominant personality instead of Anders, he is still set on making sure the boy will be okay. Justice has become something darker, but there is still a distinction between what he is and what a demon is. Justice is twisted.. maybe what we would term 'insane' now. But at the root, he is still distinguished from what a demon is to me. And I say this as a person who never even liked the character of Justice.

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Circle system being evil, by pretty much any Western definition it is.  You are taking away people's humanity for what they might do and putting them into the hands of such good guys as K-Captain Cullen who don't even aknowledge that mages should be treated with even basic human decency!  The Kirkwell system IS what the Circle system is all about when all the "optional nice stuff" is distilled out.  If the rest of you can't see it's evil, then you are beyond help (and frankly so are the writers).

-Polaris

And your argument is "The LA Cops beat up Rodney King, so all cops should be disbanded".

There is NO system that can't be screwed up by adding human beings to it.   Do you seriously think a system of "Free mages" with retards like Orsino and Uldred in it is not going to be completely screwed up?

Are the mages in Kirkwall abused?  Yes.  Is that acceptable to, tolerated, endorsed by any known Chantry authority figure?  No.  Is there reason to believe the Kirkwall system is typical?  No.  Kirkwall's Circle is definitely run by evil people.  There is no requirement that mages never see their family again.  There is no requirement that mages never leave their cells.  There are laws *against* many of the practices of the Kirkwall Templars.  So don't go telling me Kirkwall *is* the system.

This is one of those worlds where wizards don't have the choice to not train.  Its train or explode.  Therefore, there HAS to be some system of mandatory training.  There is no parallel to this situation in the real world, though we do place restrictions on individuals with medical conditions.  Epileptics generally can't operate motor vehicles, individuals with dangerous mental conditions are constrained to psychiatric facilities.  Those aren't exact parallels, but its not there are similarities.  A mage can't choose to stop being a mage.

Mages are also, ideally, protected by the Circle system from mob violence.  Witch hunts, being blamed for cows being dry, etc are common fates of real world 'mages'.   Why would Thedas be any different?

[LobselVith8]

Oneiropolos, the Ferelden Circle is addressed as being the most liberal of the fourteen Circles of Magi in Thedas. I don't think we can use it as an example of how daily life is for the mages across the continent, especially when the new ruler of Ferelden is amenable to the idea of the mages having the right to govern themselves.

As for Starkhaven, Sebastian makes it clear numerous times what place he believes mages have, that's why he talks to Fenris about turning in the apostates in Hawke's group. If his parents were similar, then they didn't treat the mages as equals. And since the Circle of Magi is controlled by the Chantry (which is why the Magi boon was turned down), Sebastian could have simply meant the Chantry, as they control the templars and the mages.

As for Anders, he addresses the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. Other characters do, and even a pro-mage Hawke can address it as such. I think it goes into the dichotomy of which side you agree with, and whether you think Anders' actions were necessary for the outcome that it lead to - the emancipation of the mages of the surviving Circles of Magi.