115 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin,

No one is saying that magic isn't dangerous and NO ONE (rational anyway) isn't saying that magic and mages shouldn't be regulated. Too many pro-templar/pro-chantry people try to make that implicit claim and it's just not true.

What is EVIL is locking away people, treating them as animals (or worse....and Knight Captain Cullen...the so-called *moderate* Templar feels that mages aren't people) for somethng they haven't done. By all means, lay the hammer down on magical criminals and those that abuse magic. A place like Kirkwall's Gallows would be just punishmet for the lot of them.

However, it is EVIL to lock away people....people....for what they might do rather than what they've done, and it's EVIL to systematically abuse and set people against a minority group to justify this control. I will never agree with what Anders did. I kill him every time (and would kill him the moment I find out he's an abomination if I was permitted to). However, the Chantry and the Grand Cleric are NOT innocent bystanders.

Even Lelianna has undergone a "stupid transplant" and now sounds like Templar-Lite when it comes to magic....which is quite odd given her involvement with the Hero of Fereldan.

-Polaris

[Oneiropolos]

We don't KNOW how his parents regarded mages or their circle. Sebastian has been in the chantry since he was like 13. (I am slightly disturbed that he also talks about womanizing and drinking.. just how young did he start?!?!) We know Sebastian was actually stuck in the chantry because he was 'making his family look bad', something Sebastian brings up when he comments on no one being actually free. The Starkhaven mages also comment that the circle was much better there. I think we can safely say Kirkwall probably ranks as the 'worst' mage circle.. and I don't see how you could get worse. I mean, they stuck them in an old slave prison Plus with what we know from the Band of Three, the Tevinter mages were doing some REALLY messed up crap in Kirkwall regarding the veil and blood magic. The Band of Three flat out states that Kirkwall has the highest amount of mages turning to blood magic too. So we could be looking at a combination of mages turning to blood magic ---> Templars being harsher ---> More mages turning to blood magic ----> Templars getting even harsher ----> It didn't all go to hell in a hand basket, they're making Hell look like the cozy place you want to be.

I am curious where it says the Ferelden circle is the most liberal? I'm not saying it DOESN'T say that somewhere, I just don't recall that one. I do remember the mages having a debate of the different stances that mages take regarding to how the circle, and the mages themselves, should operate. I'm wondering if we do use that, then we can Fereldan as "Possibly best situation" and Kirkwall as "Worst" And Starkhaven as "Burned down", and Tevinter as "Barely qualifies as a mage circle because they are in charge". Does that mean all the others fall somewhere else?

[tausra]

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Circle system being evil, by pretty much any Western definition it is.  You are taking away people's humanity for what they might do and putting them into the hands of such good guys as K-Captain Cullen who don't even aknowledge that mages should be treated with even basic human decency!  The Kirkwell system IS what the Circle system is all about when all the "optional nice stuff" is distilled out.  If the rest of you can't see it's evil, then you are beyond help (and frankly so are the writers).

-Polaris

Our Western idealogy has never had to grapple with the thought of 9 year old able to torch an entire city. The People of Thedas deal with that as a rather common possibility, along with Dragons, Giant spiders, and raving pollution spilling creatures. The Mindset, and thus the morals, of Thedas are distinctly different than our own and using our morals as a guide is short sighted and ethnocentric. I would rather the few lose their rights than have to live in constant fear of Blood Mage Cults, Demons/Abominations, or your average Angry Mage. Do they deserve daily abuses? No. Do they deserve nice, lavish rooms and little restrictions on what they can and can't do? No.

There are, or were, 14 Circles, with each likely housing the magic wielding population of whole nations. The Templars are a selective group, with moderate standards, so basically they're woefully out numbered. You must be at least a little oppressive to control an enemy several times your number.

[LobselVith8]

Oneiropolos, all the Circles rose up and broke free from the Chantry and the templars. I don't think the mages would have done that if there weren't serious problems with the Circles across the continent. When we have Anders talking about mages being raped and tortured, I didn't get the impression that he wax only talking about the Kirkwall Circle. Nearly a thousand years of this system, and when the mages are shown that "the mighty templars can be defied," they all break free and emancipate themselves.

Tausra, now that the Circles have broken free from Chantry control, I wonder how the mages will react to nearly a thousand years of subjugation. I guess someone should have considered that oppressing mages for centuries and denying them basic rights might come to bite them sooner or later.

[Abispa]

All through DA2 I'm killing slavers. Even when I get the chance to take them in alive, I kill them. Why? Slavers are evil. Lower than dirt. Slavers capture and sell humans and elves to, oh, let me check... oh, yeah. To Tevinter! Where slavery is legal. A nation ruled by... MAGES!

I'm just pointing out that even without the Chantry, people around Thedes may have a dim view of mages.

Modifié par Abispa, 02 avril 2011 - 06:44 .

[Rifneno]

tausra wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Circle system being evil, by pretty much any Western definition it is.  You are taking away people's humanity for what they might do and putting them into the hands of such good guys as K-Captain Cullen who don't even aknowledge that mages should be treated with even basic human decency!  The Kirkwell system IS what the Circle system is all about when all the "optional nice stuff" is distilled out.  If the rest of you can't see it's evil, then you are beyond help (and frankly so are the writers).

-Polaris

Our Western idealogy has never had to grapple with the thought of 9 year old able to torch an entire city. The People of Thedas deal with that as a rather common possibility, along with Dragons, Giant spiders, and raving pollution spilling creatures. The Mindset, and thus the morals, of Thedas are distinctly different than our own and using our morals as a guide is short sighted and ethnocentric. I would rather the few lose their rights than have to live in constant fear of Blood Mage Cults, Demons/Abominations, or your average Angry Mage. Do they deserve daily abuses? No. Do they deserve nice, lavish rooms and little restrictions on what they can and can't do? No.

There are, or were, 14 Circles, with each likely housing the magic wielding population of whole nations. The Templars are a selective group, with moderate standards, so basically they're woefully out numbered. You must be at least a little oppressive to control an enemy several times your number.

Except that most of that is quite possibly nothing more than the Chantry's fearmongering to keep their stranglehold on power.  Almost every one of the things people cite as reason for mages to be locked up happened in part BECAUSE of the templars.  Connor couldn't get a proper education on how to handle his magic because the templars would steal him from his parents if they suspected he was a mage.  I blame Isolde for a lot of things, but I'm not going to blame a mother for taking a chance if the alternative was having her child taken away and not to be seen again.  Quentin?  How do you think he knew Orsino?  I'd say it's almost a certainty that he was in the Circle at one point and escaped.  Orsino couldn't have risen to First Enchanter if he was taken to the Circle 5 years ago, and they barely let mages out of their cells, let alone out of the Gallows to mingle with the public.  The logical conclusion is that Quentin was taken to the Circle by the templars, imprisoned in the demon central of Thedas where he's driven mad, and then escapes and goes butchering people.  Most of the blood mages we encounter in DA2 are almost certainly driven to evil either because they were imprisoned in a place that drives them mad by the templars, or in desperation to escape the templars' brutal crimes against them.

The templars and the Chantry share as much blame for the magical atrocities we see as the mages do.  Possibly MORE.

[LobselVith8]

And in contrast, Abispa, we have the rest of Thedas, where mages are enslaved by.... The Chantry!

[Rifneno]

Abispa wrote...

All through DA2 I'm killing slavers. Even when I get the chance to take them in alive, I kill them. Why? Slavers are evil. Lower than dirt. Slavers capture and sell humans and elves to, oh, let me check... oh, yeah. To Tevinter! Where slavery is legal. A nation ruled by... MAGES!

It's pretty sad how many people use this logic without realizing it's the exact same reasoning that racist murderers use.

[Abispa]

Not denying that, LobselVith8. I'm just saying that the fear and hatred of mages predates the Chantry, and exists outside of it. The Chasind, who are pagans, also fear and hate "witches." The Tevinter mages rule with power and blood and sank an entire continent. The Dalish may not fear mages, but I find it disturbing that being born a mage appears to be the sole criteria for leadership of a clan. True, most may no be abominations, but Zathrian demonstrated that a lone mage can cause a horrific cycle of death and injustice that can last centuries.

[Abispa]

Oh, and don't get me started on the Qun.

[Statulos]

To me the best explanation is in Awakening and coming from Justice: spirits are not interested on the "world of the flesh" while demons are.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

Not denying that, LobselVith8. I'm just saying that the fear and hatred of mages predates the Chantry, and exists outside of it. The Chasind, who are pagans, also fear and hate "witches."

 
The Chasind are governed by Shamans, who are mages. The nation of Rivain has witches, or seers, who the people refuse to be parted from. The morally bankrupt town of Haven had mages. I see plenty of examples of societies where mages aren't feared or despised, and the difference between them and the Andrastian nations is that they don't believe in the Chantry of Andraste.

Abispa wrote...

The Tevinter mages rule with power and blood and sank an entire continent.

True, Arlathan. A nation of elven mages.

Abispa wrote...

The Dalish may not fear mages, but I find it disturbing that being born a mage appears to be the sole criteria for leadership of a clan.

Because all elves once had magical ability, as Merrill reveals. They believe this was stolen from them along with their immortality. And I don't see what's so disturbing about mages in power - how is it any different than Alistair becoming King because he's of "noble blood"?

Abispa wrote...

True, most may no be abominations, but Zathrian demonstrated that a lone mage can cause a horrific cycle of death and injustice that can last centuries.

So can templars. Just ask the Dalish.

[Abispa]

Rifneno, it's not racist to kill a slaver, since in order to be a slaver s/he has to be rounding up and selling slaves. That is a crime that is easily determined in this game since there are little markers above their heads that say "slaver." True, you could argue that I'm killing characters that may just be called, slavers, but I'm assuming Bioware isn't feeding me false information. I'm not killing them because they may be from Tevinter, heck, that's where I sent Feynrial.

You say mages are justified in fearing and hating the Chantry. True enough. I'm not crazy about it myself. I'm just saying that there are many other reasons people fear mages, and, I might add, other reasons people may find religious gratification in the Chantry that doesn't include hatred of mages.

[Abispa]

LobselVith8, don't look at me to defend religion. I'm an atheist. I just don't automatically despise religious people without cause. And definitely don't look to me to defend the nobility. Just as I'm bothered by the Dalish giving their leadership to people just because they can use magic, which has nothing to do with their moral judgment, intelligence or compassion, the same can DEFINITELY be said about "nobility" (who in their right mind would make Alistar king?). I am a proud democrat (not the party) and I hate the blue blood mystique even when it's apparent on "Entertainment Tonight."

[Rifneno]

Abispa wrote...

Rifneno, it's not racist to kill a slaver, since in order to be a slaver s/he has to be rounding up and selling slaves. That is a crime that is easily determined in this game since there are little markers above their heads that say "slaver." True, you could argue that I'm killing characters that may just be called, slavers, but I'm assuming Bioware isn't feeding me false information. I'm not killing them because they may be from Tevinter, heck, that's where I sent Feynrial.

You say mages are justified in fearing and hating the Chantry. True enough. I'm not crazy about it myself. I'm just saying that there are many other reasons people fear mages, and, I might add, other reasons people may find religious gratification in the Chantry that doesn't include hatred of mages.

I didn't mean it in regards to the slavers themselves.  Just that you're using Tevinter to judge mages in the Free Marches and Ferelden.  Different society, different morals, just were born sharing a biological trait with an evil group.

[Vormaerin]

Rifneno wrote...


The templars and the Chantry share as much blame for the magical atrocities we see as the mages do.  Possibly MORE.

There is no one who is arguing that the Kirkwall Circle is operating properly.  Neither the mages there nor the templars there are following anything like the proper procedures.  The only time the Chantry itself has gotten involved, its been to chastise both leaders.

None of that stuff happens in the Ferelden Circle, even if Cullen the Traumatized becomes Knight Commander.  Most of it is against the law.

Kirkwall is some kind of nexus of Tevinter Fade magic that is screwing everyone.  It is NOT a valid example of how the Circle operates.

Anders ran away seven times and was not made Tranquil, raped, executed, or anything else until he was believed to have murdered Templars to stay free (at which point they were going to execute him).  Finn, Wynne, and various other mages of the Circle are shown wandering about on their business.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

LobselVith8, don't look at me to defend religion. I'm an atheist.

I'm talking about the Chantry specifically, not religion in general.

Abispa wrote...

I just don't automatically despise religious people without cause. And definitely don't look to me to defend the nobility.

That's their system, for the most part. The Keepers are, more often than not, descended from the nobility who ruled the Dales (based on what Lanaya said). I suppose it fits the time period that Thedas is trying to mimic.

Abispa wrote...

Just as I'm bothered by the Dalish giving their leadership to people just because they can use magic, which has nothing to do with their moral judgment, intelligence or compassion, the same can DEFINITELY be said about "nobility" (who in their right mind would make Alistar king?).

I made him King, with a hardened personality, and Anora was Queen. Spared Loghain. Alistair gave the Elder of the Alienage a seat in the royal court, studied governance, surprised Anora by deferring to her decisions at court, and the people love them. Apparently, Aveline mentions that he's doing good things. It's not like my protagonist had a choice in becoming ruler, as an elven mage and all.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 02 avril 2011 - 07:22 .

[Abispa]

I don't judge mages, because they don't exist. I know that not every mage in Thedes isn't evil because I'm playing the same game you are. But just as this game shows fictional characters who are suffering horrible injustices, it also shows that just one of those people, because s/he is evil, scared, angry, or confused, can cause more destruction any other person can in a similar frame of mind.

I also think the game does a good job showing reasons "normal" people fear mages without simply saying, "'Cause the Chant says so!" They may be wrong, but it's understandable. Just as I think the game does a good job showing reasons why Anders resorts to terrorism and terrified mages turn to blood magic. Again, I think they're wrong, but it's understandable.

[maegi46]

So to put this into a real life scenario, every person with any relative in their ancestral line that ever committed a crime or had any kind of mental illness, should be locked away from society, stripped of all rights that "normal people have, all because they "might" break a law or potentially "could pose" a danger to society.


So then the question would become who would still be walking around? Not many of us I'd say. Of those that might be free would they then guard all the "bad" people? There are thousands of people right now in prisons across America that never committed a crime and some that were convicted of non violent crimes, ie, smoked and or possessed or sold pot incarcerated with hardened serial killers and rapists and corrupt guards...not saying all prisoners are innocent or that all guards are corrupt. I think you can see similarities though.

Imprisoning people because of something they "might" do is just wrong. Being aware of what they can do and teaching people about it and having a way to regulate it when it happens would be the answer. Maybe this war will be a good thing. Better to die fighting for freedom than stay imprisoned all your life.

Modifié par maegi46, 02 avril 2011 - 07:51 .

[IanPolaris]

Abispa wrote...

Not denying that, LobselVith8. I'm just saying that the fear and hatred of mages predates the Chantry, and exists outside of it. The Chasind, who are pagans, also fear and hate "witches." The Tevinter mages rule with power and blood and sank an entire continent. The Dalish may not fear mages, but I find it disturbing that being born a mage appears to be the sole criteria for leadership of a clan. True, most may no be abominations, but Zathrian demonstrated that a lone mage can cause a horrific cycle of death and injustice that can last centuries.

Several things wrong with this:

1.  If you read the codex entries on the Chasind, they do NOT fear magic and indeed their Shamans (who are apostate mages) form part of a ruling council in the same way that many Native American Tribes operated.  The Chansind fear and loath witches and for very good reason.  A "witch" according to the Chasind is one who consorts with Flemeth and as Merrill so quaintly put it, most people that deal with Flemeth wind up handing in pieces from the trees.  Do not conflate "witch" with "mage" when dealing with the Chasind.  They are not the same thing.

2.  The Tevinter Empire is built on power and view power as the end justification of all things.  Definately not a nice place, but honestly it is much like our historical Rome.  Tevinter is ruled by magic to be sure, but magic doesn't make the Tevinter Empire evil.  Their attitude towards power and human rights make them evil.  Magic is merely a means to an end....and if it weren't for magic, they'd find something else.

3.  The Dalish do NOT use magic as the sole means to determine leadership.  Rather magic is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition to become a keeper.  In Origins in particular we run into several Dalish who are mages but are not keepers or firsts.  Lanaya in fact says that she had to compete against several other candidates of the old blood (all presumably were mages) to earn her place and she was rightfully proud of that accomplishment.

4.  As for the Qun, I can only speculate that they had some near total cultural disaster with magic sometime in their distant past since the Qunari are so utilitarian in every other aspect.  That includes (apparently) blood-magic.  Since the Qun hate all magic, they don't seem to view blood-magic as any more vile than the rest...and the Rivianni Qun have the most freedom in all of Thedas....and they share the same religion as their magic hating namesakes.

-Polaris

[TobiTobsen]

Bayz wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

There's no evidence that they are different in kind. They are all Fade entities that embody certain emotions or intellectual constructs (like Justice). The only practical difference is that demons are more interesting to unpleasant people and making deals with them is more likely to have negative consequences because the emotions they focus on are more negative.

I'm pretty sure that the Andrastians would torch Wynne and Anders as abominations just as fast as they would any "demon" possessed person.

Oh boy...should have turned her

They wouldn't. Read the description of the spirit healer in DA2 . Being a spirit healer is like having a permanent harrowing. There is always a templar near you who just waits for an excuse to cut you down.

[MICHELLE7]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Based on what Anders says in DA2, the difference between spirits and demons is religious; specifically, Andrastian.

Anders says to Merrill, "Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor."

Yeah, that's pretty much what I got...there is a codex entry from one of the books that pretty much says the same thing. The spirits became demons when they united with humans and took on some of their darker aspects...which pretty much explains where Vengenge is coming from with Anders. Perhaps as the mages are freed, Anders anger will subside and vengence will fall by the wayside.

[The Angry One]

Justice doesn't work that way. As long as there's percieved injustice he will be angry.
Remember, Justice gets upset over keeping a *cat* as a pet.

[Bayz]

What I fail to see is justice as an emotion though...I always thought it was an abstract concept.

[tausra]

maegi46 wrote...

So to put this into a real life scenario, every person with any relative in their ancestral line that ever committed a crime or had any kind of mental illness, should be locked away from society, stripped of all rights that "normal people have, all because they "might" break a law or potentially "could pose" a danger to society.

Your analogy is a false one, and I also refuse to be straw manned. We are not saying everyone ever descended from a mage should be imprisoned, or as you put it, " stripped of all rights that "normal" people have". We are saying that mages, people with the potential to destroy cities in a fit of rage, summon demons, and control minds (most of which we've seen mages do at the slightest provocation) should be monitored and controlled. Comparing a Mage to a Criminal is Ethnocentric and ignorant, you're denying the incredible potential to vaporize cities, turn men into pillars of stone, blast people with a cone of icicles, rain fire from the sky, and throw bolts of pure lightning that all mages have.

Have you ever been angry? So angry you've hit someone? Now imagine a Mage, angry enough to hit somone. Is he going to throw a punch or a bolt of lightning? Maybe he's a fan of fire, and whips a ball of it at your face. Or let's go a step further, a mage is lonely, he misses his dead sister. In his loneliness he comes across a spirit of desire, who makes him feel better and gives him someone to talk to. No lonely criminal can become possed by a spirit of desire, and become a mindless abomination with zero restraint or morals. Next time you make an analogy, make a good one.