115 réponses à ce sujet

[Ealos]

Justice, a spirit, sees a difference between his kind and the demons, so fade creatures think there's a difference. I reckon so, Marethari certainly regards Merrill's habits as unhealthy. Though Vellanna and Zathrian control demons, if not summon them. So I'd say that they regard them as different, but make use of demons to some level.

[Ziggeh]

While Merrill does say that it's an applied distinction, she's also aware of the danger she's placed herself in, and is very careful with the use of the term "spirit". She understands that the thing she's dealing with, whatever she's calling it, is malevolent by nature. So whatever the word usage, she definitely distinguishs between the two.

[LobselVith8]

tausra wrote...

maegi46 wrote...

So to put this into a real life scenario, every person with any relative in their ancestral line that ever committed a crime or had any kind of mental illness, should be locked away from society, stripped of all rights that "normal people have, all because they "might" break a law or potentially "could pose" a danger to society.

Your analogy is a false one, and I also refuse to be straw manned. We are not saying everyone ever descended from a mage should be imprisoned, or as you put it, " stripped of all rights that "normal" people have". We are saying that mages, people with the potential to destroy cities in a fit of rage, summon demons, and control minds (most of which we've seen mages do at the slightest provocation) should be monitored and controlled.

But maegi46 addresses that what the Chantry does is exactly that - strip mages of their basic rights and force them into servitude. That's how mages had no recourse when they were being raped and tortured. It's why we hear Anders solemnly saying that suicide was the biggest killer of mages. 

tausra wrote...

Comparing a Mage to a Criminal is Ethnocentric and ignorant, you're denying the incredible potential to vaporize cities, turn men into pillars of stone, blast people with a cone of icicles, rain fire from the sky, and throw bolts of pure lightning that all mages have.

Mages aren't alone in having the capacity to harm, as we know from the Chantry destroying the nation of the Dales and forcing elves to convert to their religion. I don't see how the Chantry controlled Circles solved the problem as we saw the Gallows resulted in many destructive blood mages and abominations, and left the lives of hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children in the hands of the Chantry, which lead to Knight-Commander Meredith ordering the genocide of all mages for something no Circle mage did.

tausra wrote...

Have you ever been angry? So angry you've hit someone? Now imagine a Mage, angry enough to hit somone. Is he going to throw a punch or a bolt of lightning? Maybe he's a fan of fire, and whips a ball of it at your face. Or let's go a step further, a mage is lonely, he misses his dead sister. In his loneliness he comes across a spirit of desire, who makes him feel better and gives him someone to talk to. No lonely criminal can become possed by a spirit of desire, and become a mindless abomination with zero restraint or morals. Next time you make an analogy, make a good one.

So let's force all mages into an oppressive system that inevitably leads them to rebel and free themselves from slavery? And anyone can be possessed, actually. People, animals, trees, and rock wraiths. Even dead trees.

[Rifneno]

Vormaerin wrote...

Rifneno wrote...


The templars and the Chantry share as much blame for the magical atrocities we see as the mages do.  Possibly MORE.

There is no one who is arguing that the Kirkwall Circle is operating properly.  Neither the mages there nor the templars there are following anything like the proper procedures.  The only time the Chantry itself has gotten involved, its been to chastise both leaders.

None of that stuff happens in the Ferelden Circle, even if Cullen the Traumatized becomes Knight Commander.  Most of it is against the law.

Kirkwall is some kind of nexus of Tevinter Fade magic that is screwing everyone.  It is NOT a valid example of how the Circle operates.

Anders ran away seven times and was not made Tranquil, raped, executed, or anything else until he was believed to have murdered Templars to stay free (at which point they were going to execute him).  Finn, Wynne, and various other mages of the Circle are shown wandering about on their business.

You'll note that I used Connor as an example, and that did happen in Ferelden.  Even the ever-so-loving templars we're shown in DAO, before they took us the route of "templars abuse their power," were at least partially responsible for Redcliffe.  You can't ask parents to give up their child to a bunch of drug-addled zealots who imprison them for life and make their lives miserable.  In fact, you can't ask parents to give up their child and never see them again on the mere chance that something bad might happen anyway.  That's just INCREDIBLY retarded.  I can't imagine coming up with an idea that stupid if I hit myself in the head with a sledgehammer for an hour beforehand.  How could the Chantry possibly think that would work?!  <deep breath>  So anyway, you simply can't blame parents for not giving their child to the templars.

An example.  Connor was a kid who climbed into a rusty van that said "FREE CANDY INSIDE" on it.  Why?  Because he was never properly taught how to handle his magic and the dangers of the Fade.  And the reason he couldn't be taught is because the Chantry will steal him from his parents if they find out the parents are trying to get him the help he desperately needs.  Every death in Redcliffe can rightly be blamed on the Chantry.  If they weren't stealing children then mage children could be properly educated and taught.  If you want proof, send Morrigan into the Fade to deal with Connor's demon.  Here we have a person that'd sell her own mother--err, well, bad example.  But suffice to say here's someone who is about as far from a saint as you can get without having horns.  Yet even she is almost insulted that the demon thinks she's dumb enough to make a deal with it.  Apostates would be far safer if they had proper training.  But the Chantry makes it so they cannot.

[LobselVith8]

Ealos wrote...

Justice, a spirit, sees a difference between his kind and the demons, so fade creatures think there's a difference. I reckon so, Marethari certainly regards Merrill's habits as unhealthy. Though Vellanna and Zathrian control demons, if not summon them. So I'd say that they regard them as different, but make use of demons to some level.

But Justice also has Kristoff's memories as well. He knows the Common Language, he knows about the Grey Wardens, and he understands the Andrastian distinction between spirits and demons. As for Merrill, she's used blood magic proficiently for several years (and she's one of the most powerful blood mages Hawke can have as an ally in combat), so I don't agree with Marethari's speculation on the issue.

[Camenae]

Of course Justice would see a difference between himself and demons...boy does he get defensive when you call him a demon or even suggest that there are similarities! He (almost) killed Ella just because she called him a demon. Hit a sore spot, didn't we? I really don't see the difference between him and a rage demon.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

But Justice also has Kristoff's memories as well. He knows the Common Language, he knows about the Grey Wardens, and he understands the Andrastian distinction between spirits and demons

He had Kristoffs memories before being forced to possess the body? How?

That he understands the distinction is possible due to dreamers, the fade is said to work like silly-putty to mirror the real world. The same explanation he has for that spirits know of the maker.

[Ealos]

Mages aren't alone in having the capacity to harm, but they have personal power - a mage, by himself, can cause immense damage. They don't need followers, or a team, or equipment, it's more immediate. And mages are far more attractive to demons (thought they have more training in dealing with them), and possessed mages still (lore wise, even if in the game an abomination is far less dangerous) have all their abilities and more. Wish we could have seen another circle in Thedas, since the Gallows is clearly unusual both in strictness and in blood magic prevalence thus and not sure if Kinloch Hold is more lenient than the usual. My mage character in DAO was ok with the concept of the circle (perhaps a little hypocritically) but Bioware has successfully generated more anger at the system in general than anything else with Leliana's little "we allow them to run their little freedom clubs" spiel.

[Ziggeh]

Ealos wrote...

My mage character in DAO was ok with the concept of the circle (perhaps a little hypocritically)

I dunno, if i lived with the constant threat of literal monsters trying to take up residence in my skull I'd spend most if not all of my existence trying to avoid it. Having a place dedicated to such activity would seem like a great idea.

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

Of course Justice would see a difference between himself and demons...boy does he get defensive when you call him a demon or even suggest that there are similarities! He (almost) killed Ella just because she called him a demon. Hit a sore spot, didn't we? I really don't see the difference between him and a rage demon.

Justice was already enraged before she said that.  Because Anders was enraged.  Because they both just saw a group of templars threatening to spiritually behead some poor girl for trying to say goodbye to her mother and then, oh yeah, rape her afterwards.  I think most people would be driven to a frenzy by that.  I'd have beaten them to death with a spork.  It was Anders' rage that effected Justice, not Justice's own.  Anders says "he comes out when I lose control of myself."  Basically, when Justice gets a chance to come on stage it's because Anders has lost himself in rage and he's then projecting the rage of his host.  Justice, himself, is not a demon.  Demons are indescriminate in their victims.  Justice doesn't go killing random folk on the street and it's really only that one time, after Anders had seen something so over-the-top evil, that Anders' anger drove him to percieve an ally as an enemy.

If you want to call that the same as a rage demon... well, that's your opinion.  I don't think it is personally.  If nothing else, because real demons aren't effected by their hosts emotions like that.  Only Justice and Anders, for some totally unexplained reason.

[Arppis]

Justice isn't a demon. Err... Well he might be now. But still.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

But Justice also has Kristoff's memories as well. He knows the Common Language, he knows about the Grey Wardens, and he understands the Andrastian distinction between spirits and demons

He had Kristoffs memories before being forced to possess the body? How?

That he understands the distinction is possible due to dreamers, the fade is said to work like silly-putty to mirror the real world. The same explanation he has for that spirits know of the maker.

I was talking about Justice's dialogue with the other companions. As for being a spirit, spirit healers call on spirits to agument their abilities. "While healing spells do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf." It doesn't seem that much of a stretch that spirits would be familiar with the world of mortals, especially since the Fade is the realm of dreams. Spirits do have interactions with denizens from the real world in addition to this.

[Ealos]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ealos wrote...

Justice, a spirit, sees a difference between his kind and the demons, so fade creatures think there's a difference. I reckon so, Marethari certainly regards Merrill's habits as unhealthy. Though Vellanna and Zathrian control demons, if not summon them. So I'd say that they regard them as different, but make use of demons to some level.

But Justice also has Kristoff's memories as well. He knows the Common Language, he knows about the Grey Wardens, and he understands the Andrastian distinction between spirits and demons. As for Merrill, she's used blood magic proficiently for several years (and she's one of the most powerful blood mages Hawke can have as an ally in combat), so I don't agree with Marethari's speculation on the issue.

I'm pretty sure that Justice-in-Kristoff is still the Justice of the fade, but able to "read" some of Kristoff's memories, not affected by his opinions. I didn't get the impression that he was altered by Kristoff in the way that he and Anders later merge. He doesn't describe them in doctrine, but as spirits who want to get into the world and take from mortals, unlike him and his aloof kin.
With Marethari's opinion, I was merely thinking that she, as an established Keeper, was more schooled in the lore of the dalish and more likely to give a representative view of general Dalish views than Merill the pariah, not whether she was right or not.

[Abispa]

The argument about the Chasind not being afraid of mages interests me since you say the codex details a society RUN BY MAGES. True, the Chasind have yet to be fully detailed, but how is a society run by mages any more just than a society run by female priests? How is that more fair than a society run by racism and nobles? There is no indication anywhere that a mage has any more ability to be fair, just and compassionate that the average person, and vice versa. I've actually worked with tribes who's leadership is ruled by shamans, whose magic isn't even real. The people love them because they think they make the sun rise, crops grow, etc. But they also FEAR THEM. If a son or daughter is desired for whatever services, the tribe HAS to provide them for fear of someone having a "cursed" baby having a clubbed foot or something. For the sake of argument, let's say I think Obama is a good president. Even if he was the best president we've ever had, it would be an unjust society primed for abuse if we were to grant him executive authority simply because came from Chicago. I can easily imagine Chasind growing up fearful and eventually resentful of their society.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

The argument about the Chasind not being afraid of mages interests me since you say the codex details a society RUN BY MAGES.

Yes, in the same way many nations (with the exception of the Qunari) are governed by those with noble blood.

Abispa wrote...

True, the Chasind have yet to be fully detailed, but how is a society run by mages any more just than a society run by female priests? How is that more fair than a society run by racism and nobles?

I don't recall the Chasind forcing people into servitude by the Chantry does.

Abispa wrote...

There is no indication anywhere that a mage has any more ability to be fair, just and compassionate that the average person, and vice versa.

There's no indication a noble will be fair, either, but I didn't have a choice to convince the Chasind Wilders or the people of Ferelden to switch to democracy.

Abispa wrote...

I've actually worked with tribes who's leadership is ruled by shamans, whose magic isn't even real. The people love them because they think they make the sun rise, crops grow, etc. But they also FEAR THEM. If a son or daughter is desired for whatever services, the tribe HAS to provide them for fear of someone having a "cursed" baby having a clubbed foot or something.

We know the Chasind are tolerant of mages. We know, in comparison, the Andrastian nations believe that mages are "cursed" (see: Magi Origin) and Wynne reveals people are killed in these societies because they blame the mages for a drought or a dead baby. Basically, your analysis of the tribes seems to follow how the nations under the influence of the Chantry function, as opposed to the Chasind tribes.

Abispa wrote...

For the sake of argument, let's say I think Obama is a good president. Even if he was the best president we've ever had, it would be an unjust society primed for abuse if we were to grant him executive authority simply because came from Chicago. I can easily imagine Chasind growing up fearful and eventually resentful of their society.

We have no indication the people are living in fear of the Shamans. According to the Genitivi written codex, "Today, the Chasind are considered largely peaceful, though their ways are still primitive compared to our own. In the Korcari Wilds they live in strange-looking huts built on stilts or even built into the great treetops. They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars."

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was talking about Justice's dialogue with the other companions.

And I wasn't. But you liked to handwave it. He sees a difference before being in Kristoff's body.

As for being a spirit, spirit healers call on spirits to agument their abilities. "While healing spells do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf." It doesn't seem that much of a stretch that spirits would be familiar with the world of mortals, especially since the Fade is the realm of dreams. Spirits do have interactions with denizens from the real world in addition to this.

So that means that they are wrong while Merril is right? They are all spirits, but they reflect different things. So I agree that they are the same, but they can still be differentiated. How else is there that all rage demons have a certain shape? They have been described as having that shape in the lore of the game, so it isn't a gameplay thing with using generic models (as in Qunari). Merril could be like a biologist that has a different definition of what a specie is, there be loads of definitions for that.

[Ziggeh]

Abispa wrote...

since you say the codex details a society RUN BY MAGES.

It doesn't. It's not much of a leap to assume that, but it's not explicit.

[Abispa]

The Spirit of Valor in DA:O said that all it takes to create things in the Fade is to simply WILL it into existence. I'm sure that Justice was able to will his problems away in the Fade, but once he was drawn out into the "real" world, his options for creating justice were limited. He now has to act in concert with others, people who may not have the same goal. He has to compromise or take a back seat to Hawke if s/he tells him to.

The same can be said of any of us seeking to make the world a better place. We need the help of others realize our vision, but in the process of getting help there are adaptations we must make that we may not be happy with.

There is no easy solution to bringing justice to the mages. And I'm sure that played a role in his decision to just blow everything up and FORCE everyone else to solve the problem. It's obvious he wants to be martyred and even seemed disappointed when allowed to survive.

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was talking about Justice's dialogue with the other companions.

And I wasn't. But you liked to handwave it. He sees a difference before being in Kristoff's body.

As for being a spirit, spirit healers call on spirits to agument their abilities. "While healing spells do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf." It doesn't seem that much of a stretch that spirits would be familiar with the world of mortals, especially since the Fade is the realm of dreams. Spirits do have interactions with denizens from the real world in addition to this.

So that means that they are wrong while Merril is right? They are all spirits, but they reflect different things. So I agree that they are the same, but they can still be differentiated. How else is there that all rage demons have a certain shape? They have been described as having that shape in the lore of the game, so it isn't a gameplay thing with using generic models (as in Qunari). Merril could be like a biologist that has a different definition of what a specie is, there be loads of definitions for that.

Humans also come in different shapes and sizes. Of course spirits are different as they represent different 'ideas'. As they live in a world of ideas. For Merrill it is no difference to deal with spirits or demons, since she has to be careful with both. And I think she pretty much knows the risks. At least she doesn't cause any problems in the 7 years with Hawke. Unless you count what happened to the Keeper, which was Marethari's own doing, not Merrill's.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 avril 2011 - 03:59 .

[erilben]

Not even just Justice that is the only spirit that sees a difference in demons and spirits, but so does the Valor spirit found in the Fade during the mage Warden's Harrowing. He says he's no demon, preying on moral to steal their essences.

[Rifneno]

Abispa wrote...

 It's obvious he wants to be martyred and even seemed disappointed when allowed to survive.

I don't know why everyone says this.  He doesn't want to be martyred, he's just trying to look at his death in the best possible light.  And he sure doesn't seem disappointed if you spare him.  When I ask him to stay he's surprised but clearly pleasantly so and after saying he'll help fight the templars he adds with conviction, "damn right I will!"  Did you side with the templars?  Maybe that's why he sounds disappointed, Clark "Hawke" Kent is siding with the enemy.

[Maconbar]

Mainly wanted to say that I have enjoyed reading this thread.

Although the distinction between spirits and demons has been the main focus of this thread, I wanted to throw out an idea that is related to the mages/templar issue. It seems almost inevitable that in a world where some people have access to magic or other special powers, that there will be two possible outcomes: 1. the mages will use their abilities and rule; or 2. the mages will be suppressed. In Thedas the obvious example of 1. is Tevinter and the Qun represent the most extreme example of 2.

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

Abispa wrote...

 It's obvious he wants to be martyred and even seemed disappointed when allowed to survive.

I don't know why everyone says this.  He doesn't want to be martyred, he's just trying to look at his death in the best possible light.  And he sure doesn't seem disappointed if you spare him.  When I ask him to stay he's surprised but clearly pleasantly so and after saying he'll help fight the templars he adds with conviction, "damn right I will!"  Did you side with the templars?  Maybe that's why he sounds disappointed, Clark "Hawke" Kent is siding with the enemy.

This might have something to do with it.

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

[Maconbar]

Rifneno wrote...

Abispa wrote...

 It's obvious he wants to be martyred and even seemed disappointed when allowed to survive.

I don't know why everyone says this.  He doesn't want to be martyred, he's just trying to look at his death in the best possible light.  And he sure doesn't seem disappointed if you spare him.  When I ask him to stay he's surprised but clearly pleasantly so and after saying he'll help fight the templars he adds with conviction, "damn right I will!"  Did you side with the templars?  Maybe that's why he sounds disappointed, Clark "Hawke" Kent is siding with the enemy.

He certainly doesn't try to resist, which suggests that he isn't opposed to becoming a matyr.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was talking about Justice's dialogue with the other companions.

And I wasn't. But you liked to handwave it. He sees a difference before being in Kristoff's body.

Excuse me? What exactly did I handwave when I addressed the dialogue with Justice and his companions? If Anders specifically says that the difference between spirits and demons is an issue of Andrastian faith, then it's religious differences.

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for being a spirit, spirit healers call on spirits to agument their abilities. "While healing spells do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf." It doesn't seem that much of a stretch that spirits would be familiar with the world of mortals, especially since the Fade is the realm of dreams. Spirits do have interactions with denizens from the real world in addition to this.

So that means that they are wrong while Merril is right?

Maybe you need to examine the dialogue Anders says again - he specifically addresses that it's Andrastian. He says, "Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor. " Why do you think the Dalish would follow Andrastian teachings?