115 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Abispa wrote...

 It's obvious he wants to be martyred and even seemed disappointed when allowed to survive.

I don't know why everyone says this.  He doesn't want to be martyred, he's just trying to look at his death in the best possible light.  And he sure doesn't seem disappointed if you spare him.  When I ask him to stay he's surprised but clearly pleasantly so and after saying he'll help fight the templars he adds with conviction, "damn right I will!"  Did you side with the templars?  Maybe that's why he sounds disappointed, Clark "Hawke" Kent is siding with the enemy.

This might have something to do with it.

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

So she's to blame that there was no flirt option for femHawke with Cullen ...

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Abispa wrote...

 It's obvious he wants to be martyred and even seemed disappointed when allowed to survive.

I don't know why everyone says this.  He doesn't want to be martyred, he's just trying to look at his death in the best possible light.  And he sure doesn't seem disappointed if you spare him.  When I ask him to stay he's surprised but clearly pleasantly so and after saying he'll help fight the templars he adds with conviction, "damn right I will!"  Did you side with the templars?  Maybe that's why he sounds disappointed, Clark "Hawke" Kent is siding with the enemy.

This might have something to do with it.

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

Ahh, never saw that before.  Okay, fair enough.  But the in-game dialogue certainly doesn't reflect that if that's what they intended.

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Anders specifically says that the difference between spirits and demons is an issue of Andrastian faith, then it's religious differences.

In his opinion.

You're also, as ever, arguing different points to the guy you're talking to.

[LobselVith8]

In his opinion? If Anders addresses that the differences between spirits and demons are an issue of faith, and Merrill counters that the Dalish don't have such distinctions because they don't believe in the Maker, how is it merely Anders opinion?

That doesn't add up, Ziggeh.

[Iosev]

Here is one thing to think about:

Maybe the reason Anders is trying to argue with Merrill about the distinction between spirits and demons is not only to convince Merrill, but in someway, he's trying to convince himself. The way I saw Anders, I thought that his thoughts and dialogue reflect a man who is starting to feel doubt and worry that his actions (merging with Justice) were a mistake, and him repeatedly talking about demons and spirits was a way to reassure himself that it was OK that he merged with Justice.

[PantheraOnca]

Someone earlier in the thread said that Templars are outnumbered by mages. I am almost certain that is incorrect. I will try to find something that backs up that claim. At one point Meredith yells, "... but we are legion!" or something, so that further convinced me that there are many, many templar.

To another point in the thread, I don't care if each person has the potential to unmake reality. You can't violate the riots of the few to protect the many. If the few willingly reduce or give up their rights, that would be a different story. Getting a non-coerced few to give up there rights is rare however. For instance, I find the actions of the saarebas you free to be just, but I am not certain he had the proper freedom to make that decision. Additionally, once you revoke the riots of another without their permisson, you have declined to have those same rights yourself.


edit: The only thing I could find after a quick seach was:

"The Order is composed of numerous branches, each of them centered around a specific community or region they are assigned to defend and monitor. Each of these chapters is ultimately led by a Knight-Commander, who in turn answers to the head of the local chantry, often a Grand Cleric, depending on the region in question. The size and strength of each branch also differs, depending on the community they serve or their specific mandate. For example, the templars present in Lothering are few in number, and may in fact be a smaller unit within a larger chapter."

Based on the above, I would assume that the Templar in a Circle are generally speaking enough to handle or at least contain that Circle going rogue before calling on the countryside for reinforcements.

Also, I am assuming since you don't have to be born into Templar-dom that the rate at which you can add templar to a conflict is greater than that at which you can add mages.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 02 avril 2011 - 06:47 .

[Iosev]

Ultimately, persecuting and caging magi out of fear of what they could do is NEVER going to prevent all abuses of magic, but rather, it will only push the ones who can't handle the trauma of being controlled and persecuted to abuse magic out of survival.

Just as it is clear that magi need to be trained at an early age to control their powers, it is just as clear that persecuting, caging, lobotomizing (Tranquility), and killing magi is only causing more strife.

Change is necessary. If magi had a healthier environment in which they could be trained, and if templars only pursued magi who have actually committed crimes, there would be far less magi abusing their powers.

When you have a bunch of templars chasing after a single mage simply trying to see her family (the quest Dissent), and only a single templar investigating the homicides of Quentin (i.e., Emeric), you know something is wrong with the system.

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In his opinion? If Anders addresses that the differences between spirits and demons are an issue of faith, and Merrill counters that the Dalish don't have such distinctions because they don't believe in the Maker, how is it merely Anders opinion?

That doesn't add up, Ziggeh.

Apologies, I have to confess I wasn't entirely sure what you were trying to say. How is Anders and Merrills conversation related to Kristoff's body?

Edit: scratch that, I really don't care.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 02 avril 2011 - 06:57 .

[Andronic0s]

As anders says in a conversation "Demon" is merely a classification not a separate being, they are all spirits the difference is that some take interest in the "real" world and some don't those that do get corrupted and turn into "demons" those that do not remain spirits, I guess after the anders fiasco a new vengeance demon should be added to the clasification.

What I never understood is why Merrill seemed fixated in arguing what seems essentially to be semantics, you can call them whatever you want but it will not change their nature

[Kabraxal]

Andronic0s wrote...

As anders says in a conversation "Demon" is merely a classification not a separate being, they are all spirits the difference is that some take interest in the "real" world and some don't those that do get corrupted and turn into "demons" those that do not remain spirits, I guess after the anders fiasco a new vengeance demon should be added to the clasification.

What I never understood is why Merrill seemed fixated in arguing what seems essentially to be semantics, you can call them whatever you want but it will not change their nature

Anders is the one that was actually trying to argue... he kept going on with the demon label and how it is because of his religion that he is right...

[Andronic0s]

Whenever I brought up the fact that Merrill made a deal with a demon she kept repeating it was a spirit and avoided the issue...

[Vormaerin]

Rifneno wrote...

  You can't ask parents to give up their child to a bunch of drug-addled zealots who imprison them for life and make their lives miserable.  In fact, you can't ask parents to give up their child and never see them again on the mere chance that something bad might happen anyway.  That's just INCREDIBLY retarded.

You keep making assertions based on the kirkwall rules.   NO ONE prohbits mages from seeing their families outside of Kirkwall.  Yes, Connor would have had to leave home and live in the mage tower and he would have had to give up his claim to the Arldom.   She could have visited him when she wanted to... after all, she is plenty wealthy enough to travel the short distance to the Circle Tower.   She was the idiot mother who keeps her mentally ill child locked in the attic rather than send him to the psychiatric hospital.

What the heck are you suggesting is the alternative?  The tower sends a mage and a templar to live in every peasant hut that produces a mage child for ten or twelve years?   Yeah, a noble like the Arl of Redcliffe could afford to pay for the books, labs, and other supplies needed to properly train a mage at home.    But then you have the political consequences of "Eamon has a pet mage.   I demand a pet mage of my own" from the other nobles.

If the mage had the option to just not learn magic, it would be a different story.   But magic without training is functionally a mental illness.  It will get out of hand without training.   And that training has to be done somewhere.

[Vormaerin]

arcelonious wrote...

Change is necessary. If magi had a healthier environment in which they could be trained, and if templars only pursued magi who have actually committed crimes, there would be far less magi abusing their powers.

When you have a bunch of templars chasing after a single mage simply trying to see her family (the quest Dissent), and only a single templar investigating the homicides of Quentin (i.e., Emeric), you know something is wrong with the system.

The Kirkwall Circle is completely and totally corrupt on both sides.   Most of the senior Templars have personal traumas that should bar them from the roles they have  (Meredith, Cullen).  Others are just plain sick (Alrik).   The templars who would run the place properly (Emeric, Thrask, Carver, etc) are marginalized by the corrupt administration.

On the mage side, you have a blood mage as First Enchanter whose only objection to Quentin's research into necromancy, blood magic, and abominations is that its not really cost effective.

There is not one institution in the history of mankind that hasn't had abuses.   There are evil doctors.  We should ban all hospitals.   Police power is inherently coercive and sometimes corrupt.  Abolish it. 

Supposedly the Seekers are monitoring the Templars.  Obviously they are doing a terrible job in Kirkwall. 

[LobselVith8]

Andronic0s, Anders makes it clear the distinction between spirits and demons is Andrastian, and has to do with them being perceived of as the Maker's Children. Merrill, being Dalish, doesn't follow the same religious teachings that Anders does because she believes in the Creators. I take it that she likely doesn't feel she has to justify her religious beliefs if you try to challenge them.

Different Circles have different rules, Vormaerin. The Ferelden Circle is acknowledged as the most liberal of the fourteen Circles, but we know some of the Chantry controlled Circles forbid the mages from marrying or having relationships. Not all of them followed the liberal leaning of the Ferelden Circle, and it would be wrong to assume all Knight-Commanders have a similar relationship to the First Enchanter. Given that all the Circles rebelled from Chantry control, it's safe to say that mages weren't content with the system at hand.

[Iosev]

Even in the Ferelden Circle's more liberal environment, wasn't Wynne's child taken away from her?

[LobselVith8]

No mage is allowed to raise their own child in any Circle of Magi, and the only mages who are permitted to raise their children in Andrastian societies are Grey Wardens, who are outside of Chantry control.