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It's Impossible to Defeat the Reapers


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#1
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Seriously, it can't be done. Let me give you a run down of why we can't possibly hope to be victorious in this war.

Firstly, as the codex will tell you, in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely. This is especially true of the Reapers.

There is a key difference between us and the Reapers though. Any enemy we fight will, somewhere, have some sort of planet/moon/asteroid based assets to defend. Thus we can assault their planets to earn a victory if we must.

With the Reapers however this is not so. They have no planetary assets that they must defend. The Reapers are self sufficient, space-borne intelligences. It has been pointed out that they want the Earth and while this may be true, I guarantee you that they want their own continual survival even more than that. Assuming we successfully rally the galaxy to come and get their people killed to save our planet this offers no promise of victory against the Reapers. As soon as they realize the battle is turning against them (assuming that it does and that they don't just obliterate every fleet in the galaxy), the Reapers will flee.

They'll fly up, abandon the Earth, and disappear in to the vast Milky Way galaxy. Maybe some aliens will get smart and blow up the Charon relay, isolating the Reapers in our cluster. This might buy the galaxy some time, but they'll never have any hope of winning the war.

The thing is, the Reapers don't need to capture any planets besides Earth. All they have to do is drop in out of FTL near a planet and bombard all of its inhabitants into ash. They can do this again and again on every populated world in the galaxy until none remain.

Whether it takes decades or centuries in time every race in the galaxy will be exterminated and any human survivors will be cultivated into a new Reaper.

The only remote possibility of victory is if we wait until all of the Reapers are busy harvesting Earth and then blow up the Charon relay. Theoreticaly the shockwave would overtake the Earth and destroy all of the Reapers before they could flee. After all, it is safe to assume that shockwave is travelling at the speed of light, or near it, or even faster than that. There is no way to avoid it unless you know ahead of time that it is coming. The Reapers could do this. If they have quantum entaglement devices installed in the relays (or at least in the Charon relay) they would know immediately that it had been destroyed and may be able to flee to avoid the shockwave. This is quite likely considering how trivial and widespread quantum entaglement technology is for the Reapers. The Collectors and Saren were riddled with it and the implants 'given' to Paul Grayson were linked to the Reapers in this way.

Now, assuming this isn't necessary and Shepard discovers some miracle that can defeat the Reapers, it will still be a hollow victory in some respects. The inescapable fact is that we will ALL BE CONSUMED BY REAPER TECH ANYWAY! Their technology will not vanish, it will instead be laying around for everyone in the galaxy to scoop up and reverse engineer. Terrifying things like indoctrination and quantum-entaglement devices will proliferate throughout the galaxy. One way or another, we will all become Reapers.


EDIT

It has occurred to me that humanity at least is doomed no matter what we do. I would like to point you all towards a specific planet... it was... ah yes, this one.

Mass Effect Wikia says...

Eingana is a hot, beautiful, and deadly world, covered with the debris of
ancient starships. Approximately 127,000 years ago, a series of battles
were fought over it by two organic species, the thoi'han and the
inusannon. Although no records of the conflict remain, most historians
agree that both races wanted to colonize Eingana, and neither were
willing to share. The two lost hundreds of ships in a series of battles
over Eingana and its moon, Barraiya; many of these were eventually
pulled in by the planet's gravity well.
The mass effect drive cores of these ships broke apart, dumping
refined element zero over large stretches of the landscape. This
poisoned the environment and a wave of extinctions followed
.
Many of the
animal species that remained showed a tendancy to develop biotic
powers. As the ecology of Eingana is energetic and aggressive, this
makes colonization a deadly peril.


The implications should be obvious, but I suspect I need to spell it out anyway.

Reapers contain massive drive cores of their own, and what fuels drive cores? Element zero, of-course.

So what will happen if we destroy hundreds of Reapers on or in orbit over the Earth? The same thing that happened on Eingana will happen on Earth. Refined element zero will poison the environment and wipe out much of the life there. The effect will likely be much worse on Earth because Reapers likely carry drive cores much larger than anything the races fighting over Eingana used, meaning a hell of a lot more eezo is going to rain down on the planet.

Earth will become a wasteland with most species on land and in the water dead, including plants. This means we won't be able to grow any edible food there. If the planet can't support life it certainly can't support industry and with that goes the human economy and along with it our military standing.

Someday the Earth will probably recover, but that could take tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years. It might even take many millions of years depending on how catastrohpic and total the die-off is. Humans can't afford to wait around that long.

So I now reiterate my point that we must join with the Reapers. It is our only hope. When we lose Earth we will lose most of humanity, leaving too few humans to build a new Reaper with. We'll be stranded in a hostile and callous galaxy that will be eagerly working to reverse engineer Reaper technologies and their much larger and healtheir economies will ensure that they succeed long before we do (even with the Collector base). As they unlock the secrets of Reaper tech they will join in union with it and change... becoming unrecognizable to us and at that point they may do whatever they want with us. Our fate will be beyond our control.

Joining with the Reapers now, while they can still create a Reaper for us, is our only hope. It is a not a fate I'd have ever wished for humanity, but it is one we can choose for ourselves, even if reluctantly, as opposed to one left up to outsiders. I think the Illusive Man and Cerberus understand this and this is why they have decided to join the Reapers.

The war was lost as soon as the Reapers descended upon the cradle of our species.

However we will survive, we will continue. Our legacy will not end.

Humanity will be reborn, unified at last in a single form, many voices, but a single mind, a single will.

A nation, sovereign, free of all weakness, and... eternal.

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 27 juillet 2011 - 02:42 .


#2
thatguy212

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Well we're not gonna win with that attitude

#3
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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thatguy212 wrote...

Well we're not gonna win with that attitude


The more I think about it the clearer it is to me that Saren knew this too and that this is why he decided to collaborate. In the end, we may have to do the same to ensure that the legacy of our species continues on, even if it is in the form of a Reaper.

#4
DrRedrum

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Indoctrination much? :P

On a more serious note, I would be perfectly okay with the Charon relay plan. Sure its a bit corny but I feel Bioware is up to the task to writing it well. My Paragon Shepard is okay with that ultimate sacrifice. If its already shown Humanity is doomed, might as well go down in glory of destroying the ultimate enemy.

The Krogans will be so jealous. :D

#5
thatguy212

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We just need to think "What would Kamina do?" so the answer is we need to somehow hijack a reaper, once we figure out how to avoid indoctrination it'll work

#6
Guest_mrsph_*

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Nothing is impossible if you use your imagination.

#7
Clonedzero

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im getting the dirty feeling that EDI is going to rewrite the reaper base code or some crap like that to disable all the reapers.

i mean they are just extremely advanced AIs so its possible in theory. though i hope they dont go that route, because its kinda predictable and lame

#8
xzxzxz701

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mrsph wrote...

Nothing is impossible if you use your imagination.


Posted Image

#9
AdmiralCheez

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Impossible odds? Please. Shepard came back from the dead. It's in the bag, man.

Not that the OP wasn't very well thought-out. It's good to remember what we're up against; it makes things more exciting.  Frankly, I'm wondering how the hell we're going to pull this off, myself.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 02 avril 2011 - 12:19 .


#10
DrRedrum

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Clonedzero wrote...

im getting the dirty feeling that EDI is going to rewrite the reaper base code or some crap like that to disable all the reapers.

i mean they are just extremely advanced AIs so its possible in theory. though i hope they dont go that route, because its kinda predictable and lame


I like the sight of humans reapers on their knees.

Wait what? WAIT WHAT????

Lol. No I hope for an actual battle. Virus endings should stay with Independance Day. Nothing else.

#11
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DrRedrum wrote...

Indoctrination much? :P

On a more serious note, I would be perfectly okay with the Charon relay plan.

That plan won't work, because the explosion is slow enough for the reapers to catch wind of what is going down and then just speed out of the system by FTL and avoid any harm whatsoever while the explosion destroys Earth.

#12
Anacronian Stryx

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The only remote possibility of victory is if we wait until all of the Reapers are busy harvesting Earth and then blow up the Charon relay. Theoreticaly the shockwave would overtake the Earth and destroy all of the Reapers before they could flee. After all, it is safe to assume that shockwave is travelling at the speed of light, or near it, or even faster than that. There is no way to avoid it unless you know ahead of time that it is coming. The Reapers could do this. If they have quantum entaglement devices installed in the relays (or at least in the Charon relay) they would know immediately that it had been destroyed and may be able to flee to avoid the shockwave. This is quite likely considering how trivial and widespread quantum entaglement technology is for the Reapers. The Collectors and Saren were riddled with it and the implants 'given' to Paul Grayson were linked to the Reapers in this way.


This won't work at all, Even with the presumption that the explosion magically will happen close to the speed of light lest just say (290.000 km per sec) the distance to the Charon relay from earth will mean that the explosion will be visual in 4.5 hours before the explosion reaches Earth 1975 hours after it happened i would guess more than enough time for the reapers to go to FTL.

#13
diskoh

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Seriously, it can't be done. Let me give you a run down of why we can't possibly hope to be victorious in this war.

Firstly, as the codex will tell you, in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely. This is especially true of the Reapers.


"Can" and "will" are completely different things. As we've seen thus far with the Reapers, they stay on the "I know you feel this" course until they're a pile of ashes. They are basically giant machine fueled by their own ego. They'd never retreat.

#14
Kaiser Shepard

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Part of me feels the Reapers are probably too arrogant to just retreat when things go bad. Aside from that, I'd also assume that they don't just want the Citadel and/or Omega destroyed, so those are good places to engage them.

#15
ArmedChimp

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If you overthink it yes it would be impossible. I mean essentially the reapers COULD just wait 50 years wait for the whole hype to die down than attack in force.

#16
Ultai

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OP is indoctrinated. Kidding aside, I hope the fight for survival involves much bloodshed, no 'everyone lives happily ever after all crew safe all favorite npcs safe ending'. I enjoyed getting my crew through the SM, but the collectors were pushovers. I really hope Reapers put in some hopelessness into the player for the final installment. But us being Reapers regardless won't pan out, since the franchise won't end with me3.

#17
DrRedrum

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I would like to see an "terminus systems" fleet show up. It would be the combinations of all the scumbags, crime bosses, and mercenary groups this Galaxy over fighting together to see another day to steal and stab each other.
How that would happen, I have no clue.
I feel like some forget that the geth will be on our side this time around, I feel they will have a pretty impressive force considering they are trying to make a Dyson Sphere.

Thanks for the info on the Charon relay plan not working, hopefully, bioware is taking as much info into account to make it realistic.

#18
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Anacronian Stryx wrote...

This won't work at all, Even with the presumption that the explosion magically will happen close to the speed of light lest just say (290.000 km per sec) the distance to the Charon relay from earth will mean that the explosion will be visual in 4.5 hours before the explosion reaches Earth 1975 hours after it happened i would guess more than enough time for the reapers to go to FTL.




I don't think we should assume anything about the speed of the explosion from the relay. However judging by  the image we saw in Arrival when Shepard was watching the system be destroyed it took only seconds. Considering the nature of relays, it is possible that explosion spread faster than the speed of light. Even if it is only a fraction of the speed of light it is still fast enough that once you see it you don't have time to react to it.

That's irrelevant anyway though because I already pointed out another way the tactic is likely to fail. The best guarantee with destroying the relay is that it may buy the rest of the galaxy another few months or years to prepare. Though of-course that preparation will be futile anyway.

#19
XXIceColdXX

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The Reapers havent taken into account one important thing. Admiral Hackett

#20
Anacronian Stryx

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DrRedrum wrote...
I feel like some forget that the geth will be on our side this time around, I feel they will have a pretty impressive force considering they are trying to make a Dyson Sphere.


See here is an idea, What if those busy robots could be persuaded to stop their sphere building for a while and instead focussing on upgrading ships for war, Like..ohh i don't know..maybe a flotilla of 50.000 ships..if the player just happended to come across such a fleet.. Posted Image

#21
DrRedrum

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XXIceColdXX wrote...

The Reapers havent taken into account one important thing. Admiral Hackett


And his brother, Zaeed!

#22
vx SmOkEy xv

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A virus could work, as long as its brief, say to disable shields (Independence day)
or you infiltrate harbinger and blow the f*cker up from the inside?

#23
The Spamming Troll

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i would say its got to be the most impossible situation any species could ever be in. reapers werent built to loose.

but id still think atleast once out of a million times, the reapers could be defeated. so why not this time?

#24
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

but id still think atleast once out of a million times, the reapers could be defeated. so why not this time?


Once in a million a Reaper can be defeated, but not all the Reapers at once.

As Hackett said, and as we all knew, it took multiple fleets to destroy just one Reaper. All the fleets in the galaxy assembled together would be lucky to destroy a handful of Reapers before being annihilated.

#25
Saren100

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I think it be cool if we got to choose.

We could choose the engage them head on with a massive coalition armada.

Or the sacrifice earth by destroying the relay route.

Or a third option

We must join with him, we must join with Sauron