1062 réponses à ce sujet

[Gentleman Moogle]

procyon8 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

See I love this idea, it would really show just how strong your paragon shep is, would he choose our race be erased from existance, or would he accept that you must do what it takes to survive,even if that means joining the ranks of the enemy. A paragon would choose death, and not want to strengthen the reapers, renegade would choose survival, but this would actually put them in a grey light, neither is right or wrong.

Exactly. Unfortunately we just may have to accept that the only destiny availabile to our species is extinction or joining the ranks of Reapers. I for one will not choose extinction.

Saren has an account on the Bioware forums now?

B*stard must have uploaded himself to the Hypernet just before he got zapped. 

[1490]

I can see this going one of two ways in ME3:

The first is the "classic" plot device of the "hidden weakness": a backdoor Shepard and others will be able to use to destroy the Reapers with much greater ease once found. Perhaps the Reapers are receiving power from remote dark energy generators (dark energy was discussed in Tali's mission) and finding a way to cut them off will severely weaken them or shut them down. Or, maybe the good guys find a way to turn the Seeker swarms back against the reapers: get them to infiltrate and destroy the Reapers vital, internal parts or something. Perhaps the Citadel is the central hub for Reaper invasions, and through it the Reapers can be controlled. Anyway, different ideas here, same theme.

The other option, as people have been bringing up, is the "hard moral choice." You get the most paragon or renegade of choices to determine how to beat them and there is no right answer. Maybe the renegade choice is to lure them to Earth and destroy the Charon rely, killing billions, but destroying the Reapers for good. Then the paragon choice is to simply drive them away: you save more lives now, but they'll rebuild and be back for more.

And just in case anyone asks, these are just my guesses, nothing more.

Modifié par 1490, 02 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[this isnt my name]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

 We can defeat the reapers because Bioware isn't stupid enough to make an unwinnable game. 

How is it stupid ?
RDR had an ending where you loose, it was amazing, it wouldnt be nearly as memorable otherwise.

Apples and oranges. RDR (assuming that stands for Red Dead Redemption, because I haven't a clue otherwise) was a completely different game than ME. RDR was all about... Well, redemption. About a dude atoning for his past sins, trying to get back to a normal life but unable to because his sordid past kept intruding. 

Compare that with ME, which is a heroic space opera. The entire game is about the Valiant Struggle, about a David rising up against a supposedly unbeatable Goliath, about an entire species raising it's fist in utter defiance at the things that are coming to kill it. 

It's like the difference between Saving Private Ryan and Independance Day. One is a gritty, almost melancholy look at the realities of war and the men who fight it, and the other is an epic fight against an unknowable monster hell-bent on killing us all. We expect the ending to be melancholy at best in SPR. But we expect a gigantic explosion and some patriotic "You Win" music in Independence Day. 

The difference is one was good and suprising (considering the sheeer amount of stories where good wins becuase its good), what use is it making such an enemy like the reapers only to beat them ? if it was Turians or something thats fine, but this story is basically "here is a sharp stick, go and kill cthulu" you can have a "yay we won" predicatble BS story, or you can have a story which isnt completely terrible just so the good guys can win.

Also Johns past is less likely to corner him than the reapers in ME are, he could easily have got away *cough*Mexico*cough* (Dutch escaped his it until he returned to fight) reapers, where do you escape ? The only way it will end is a battle where one side is wiped out, this fight is like asking the romans of 2000 years ago to defeat the army of today, it wont happen, it shouldnt happen, if it happens the story is stupid.

That bothers me, your making something then completely wrecking it for the sake of "good always wins".

You can still have defiance, imagine if a paragon were to choose to destroy earth so the reapers can no longer harvest humans, they will loose numbers, and fail a cycle, thats the best logical outcome. A renegade would choose survival and allow themselves to be reperised.

[Gentleman Moogle]

this isnt my name wrote...
*snip*

The difference is one was good and suprising (considering the sheeer amount of stories where good wins becuase its good), what use is it making such an enemy like the reapers only to beat them ? if it was Turians or something thats fine, but this story is basically "here is a sharp stick, go and kill cthulu" you can have a "yay we won" predicatble BS story, or you can have a story which isnt completely terrible just so the good guys can win.

Also Johns past is less likely to corner him than the reapers in ME are, he could easily have got away *cough*Mexico*cough* (Dutch escaped his it until he returned to fight) reapers, where do you escape ? The only way it will end is a battle where one side is wiped out, this fight is like asking the romans of 2000 years ago to defeat the army of today, it wont happen, it shouldnt happen, if it happens the story is stupid.

That bothers me, your making something then completely wrecking it for the sake of "good always wins".

You can still have defiance, imagine if a paragon were to choose to destroy earth so the reapers can no longer harvest humans, they will loose numbers, and fail a cycle, thats the best logical outcome. A renegade would choose survival and allow themselves to be reperised.

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about specific storyline here, I'm talking about -tone-. From the beginning, ME's tone has been 'We will win, regardless of the cost.' It's a promise we were given in the first ME, it's a promise we were given in the second ME, and it's a promise we were given again at the end of Arrival. (Shepard's whole speech to Harbinger). This isn't a tragic series, it's not a melancholy series. From the beginning, there was the understanding that a complete and total Win is possible to achieve. 

Now, granted, I think there will be MULTIPLE endings, only one or two of which will see Humanity full-on winning against the Reapers. And I think that's how it should be. Given the amount of choices the previous two games have demanded we make, and given the types of choices we were forced to make, we ought to see real consequences for those actions. 

But I also think that to give gamers only melancholy, tragic endings is foolish. I understand that you want that kind of ending... But I don't. And both of our viewpoints are equally valid because they play to our individual tastes. You represent those fans who want that kind of heart-wrenching 'memorable' experience, and want an ending that is bitersweet at best. I represent those fans (And there are more than just me) who absolutely detest 'bittersweet' endings and want full-on "we kicked ass" wins. 

See, I don't play games for 'bittersweet' or 'melancholy' or 'because they make an impression on me'. I play games for that sense of "Hell YES, I am AWESOME". I want my happy endings, I want the warm and fuzzy feelings that come when you and your LI walk off into the sunset. And I know for a fact I'm not the only Bioware fan out there who likes that kind of ending. 

So, to sum up: I believe there will be and SHOULD be multiple endings. Some can be bittersweet (Shepard dying to save humanity), some can be tragic (Earth dies to destroy the reapers), Some can be downright bad (Reapers reap everything)... But, for those of us who like our complete and total happy endings, there should also be one or two "You Win The Universe" endings. 

Modifié par Gentleman Moogle, 02 avril 2011 - 11:24 .

[Mavkiel]

Every-time reapers come in for a fight, in numbers that cannot be repelled, blow the gate. They cannot outrun a nova. So I assume

edit: Also I have my doubts about them being self-sustaining. They may be that way when asleep, but when active I bet things start to break down

Modifié par Mavkiel, 02 avril 2011 - 11:54 .

[MagicGis]

I have no idea how we will win, and I am too busy thinking about it, because my shep doesnt plan too much... he comes in and... thinks something up 1 minute before we need a decision.

But I am sure about one thing, in the end... me, Tali, Solus, and Joker will be alife, and thats the minimum goal ^^

[atheelogos]

"It's Impossible to Defeat the Reapers " That's how I look at it. lol

[mr_luga]

I welcome our reaper overlords! Hail!

[Legbiter]

So I guess we'll have to go into Dark Space where the Reapers came from and disable them from there via a Paragon/Renegade choice.

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Well cataloging star systems are well and good but it doesn't preclude that some species could have ascended since the last harvest unknown to even the reapers especially if they don't use the relay system for transportation.

Possible, but I would imagine the Reapers have accounted for that. Just because a species doesn't reach the Citadel doesn't mean they won't be discovered. The Reapers would know ahead of time every possible garden planet in the galaxy and would ensure a relay was close by. Of-course some races might be smart enough never to use the damned things.

(Had I been there I'd have never allowed the Alliance to use the Charon relay. In fact I would have attempted to deactivate it and dismantle it)

Once the immediate threats are out of the way I'm sure the Reapers would begin diligently checking every inch of the relay network and its surrounding areas to locate any other space-faring or near-space-faring races.

That's not workable. For all their intellect, I doubt strongly that the Reapers could determine which planets throughout the galaxy would be capable of seeding life and when exactly that would happen, because in the Mass Effect universe life is pretty divurgent.

Even if after every cycle of extinction it would be plain inefficient to patrol through every mass relay (and utilize the omni-directional relay's in... all directions!) in order to catalogue which planets are capable of supporting their own ecosystem if only because I doubt that the Reapers even care... this is why they built the relays and the Citadel in the first place.

If a Reapers moves through a system and finds a stone-age civilisation, it may pause and obliterate them, but according to Vigil, they mainly exist to harvest space-faring species, which at least implies to me that if you aren't a space faring species (and don't do something that may gain their notice) they aren't going to go out of their way to kill you. It would be like chopping banana's down before they mature (even though yes they are banana's and obviously are going to eventually taste damn nice.... mmmm banana's)

[Abispa]

Ah, yes, "Reapers." We've already dismissed that claim. The "Reapers" are a myth. One that you insist on perpetuating.

[Devbo22]

Maybe if we offer Saphra to the Reapers, they will go away?

[specter520]

100k wrote...

DrRedrum wrote...

100k wrote...

I'm pretty sure that we'll just suck the reapers into a black hole. The reapers would be, if not destroyed, at least transported into the farthest reaches of dark space where it would take thousands of years to get proper navagational readings, and interstellar positioning. Hell, they might end up somewhere so far beyond the ME galaxy, that they would be completely lost, and stumble upon a civilization that would crush them like ants.

This might work, some cry "we didn't actualy destroy them then!" but it kinda fits. Shepard would just say, now we can get really prepared! It would end ME3 in victory as well as allow for expansion of the IP afterward

Agreed. I am hoping that ME3 doesn't boil down to infect the reapers with the prothean virus so that they all die like I think it will, but who knows? I HOPE that it is emphasized that the Reapers have been wiping out more advanced species for millions of years, and that fleets, computer viruses, and united civilizations aren't enough to stop this cycle of existence.

 Getting sucked into a black hole does not teleport you anywhere, the Einstein-Rosen Bridge theory has been proven wrong, a black hole is just an object that has been made so small and dense that it bends the space-time continuem alot, so much in fact that after a certain point light cant escape.  Here comes the two pieces of good news, number 1, anything sucked into a black hole will have their atoms torn apart, and the only way any of those atoms will get back out is through subtle radiation bleed.  Good news number 2, it would TECHNICALY be possible to make your own black hole, it would be hard and dangerous but technicaly possible.  But as for the bad news, something traveling in ftl could probably escape the pull of a black hole, even past the event horizon. As for what you were saying, I think you were more thinking of wormholes which can transport someone great distances, however the tech that you would need to actually open one up is very advanced, probably about the level of the reapers tech.

[X-ist]

Gentlemen. BEHOLD!  Non-violent protest!

Modifié par X-ist, 03 avril 2011 - 06:34 .

[TheSimsMaster]

Of course we'll win. We got God on our side! Well, at least Ashley does.  

Modifié par TheSimsMaster, 03 avril 2011 - 07:00 .

[Arijharn]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Actually they can and it is not hard. They survey a star, observe the planets around, and then predict the orbits of those planets and the behavior of the star over its lifetime.

They can make educated guesses based on their observations of said subject matter, but I find it hard to believe that it would be the case of using valuable fuel (whatever that may be) or even time to explore every possible planet. Think about it... it would be a massive waste of time with uncertain reward. Personally, I never got the impression that the Reapers were out to exterminate species just for existing, otherwise they would go around exterminating stars themselves.

Obviously though, not every species in the Mass Effect universe evolved in the same circumstances (for example; Elcor evolved differently from the Volus, who evolved differently from Humans who evolved differently from the Turian's again). That's a lot of extra mix to devote any specific time to do a 'what if' basis, so it seems to me that if less than 1% of our space has been explored, then it would be even less likely for the Reapers to 'casually stroll' through the entire galaxy looking for species. This is why the Reapers depended upon the Citadel to begin with because not only did it proverbially chop off the head of any potential resistance the Reaper's 'prey' species could muster (aka; Councillor's and what they may represent) the Reapers also went after census data.

Which is probably one of the reasons that Ilos was so successful, because it was purged in time. For all we know, the Prothean's tasked with looking over Earth at the time probably got forewarned about the Reapers and decided to sabotage the Charon relay as well (and most likely doom themselves in the process, but it seems to me that the Protheans were pretty altruistic at this point in time).

At FTL speeds the Reapers have had more than enough time to explore every single star in the galaxy.

True, but conventional theory holds that scanners and sensors can't operate beyond FTL speeds, because the spectrum blue shifts. Theoretically I suppose they could have runtimes purely devoted to putting the sensor data back 'in focus' but considering you want to stick as closely as possible to aspects that we know, then it's kinda redundant.

But you've thrown up a point and I feel the need to rebuke it. It doesn't matter if they know planet X existed 40,000 years ago if they don't have data on it right now. It could have evolved life, it may not have, but they aren't going to just check it on their own back 'just in case' because that's why the Mass Relay's were developed. Presumably those things are littered all over the place to make them enticing and to lead them eventually to the Citadel, since you know, that was the Citadel's whole point of existence (short of being a Mass Relay itself).

For the record though; I agree with you entirely. As is we have no hope of stopping the Reapers because we are behind in the technological curve -- which is why something like the Collector Base (for all the good and ill it may represent) is essential and that it is just plain tactically stupid to destroy it (okay, I've said my piece, perhaps I should move on quickly from that statement).

It doesn't matter if you manage to unite the galaxy in an alliance of convenience against the Reapers, if all the species and all their guns are basically at the level of throwing eggs at brick walls.

[Lee337]

I want an ending where we can win, but I don't want it to be easy or without sacrifice. Being forced to lose is just dull, that's like real life. I have enough of real life already.

[Dave666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The quarian army is just fodder. Same with the geth, and the turians, and every fleet out there.

Just want to point out that six months ago, if i had suggested destroying a Relay by slamming an asteroid into it I would have been ridiculed.  I've seen you dismiss a hell of a lot of ideas so far.  Don't be too surprised if one of the ideas that you have dismissed is actually used.

[Arijharn]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

A massive waste of time? The pay-off is the complete control of the galaxy and the ability to cull organic civilizations a few times ever 100,000 years. Reapers have huge drive cores which means long-range FTL drives, longer than most any other ships in the galaxy. It's not a problem for them to go to a star system and survey it. In fact, they don't even need to visit each one. We are capable of surveying solar systems right now from within our own using some clever detection methods. The Reapers could do the same.
[/quote]
Aren't you making the arguement that the Reapers would make a herculean effort to route us out by systematically exploring every star system within our galaxy in order to cull us? All I'm saying is that is plainly ridiculous, they aren't gods, they can't simultaneously scan every planet in a nanosecond in order to find us, and that's even assuming we'd immediately go to another planet anyway. Even without that exaggeration, it would still take them a long time, and even then they'd want to scan before committing themselves wilynily. All of that takes time.

Yes, we can survey other planets, but that isn't the same as detecting whether they hold life or not. It hasn't even been outright said that the Reapers were responsible for the elimination of those few bronze or stone age civilisations that we can read about while playing ME2.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
Or they could just identify the location of every star and cluster, and then place mass relays accordingly.
[/quote]
That's neither here nor there imo. If they're busy wiping us out, then I'm not altogether sure that they're going to be placing Mass Relay's around. It's kinda pointless speculation in and of itself (how long does one take to construct? How do they construct it? What materials are used?)

[quote]Saphra wrote...
As of yet we have no idea what they are truly after. However what is clear is that they are culling civilizations for some reaoson and have set up an elaborate means of doing so at regular intervals. I'm trying to point out that basic astronomy would allow them to identify most every planet and star in the galaxy as well as determine which ones were most likely to ever develop sentient life over the course of their stars' lifetime.
[/quote]
It's not nearly as fool proof as you seem to make it out to be though. Even if they knew where to look doesn't mean that they might necessarily be looking at it at the right time and that presupposes. If we, as galactic civilisation, have only managed to settle as of yet 1% of 'citadel space' then if we start to go a bit outside that '1%', then it would have to take the Reapers x amount of more time to find us.

[quote]Saphra wrote.
The criteria for life are fairly simple. You just have identify environmental conditions. You need energy and some sort of substance for the life to evolve in. Such as water or amonia. If all the building blocks are there then life is possible.
[/quote]
Right, but that presupposes we can't gain those sort of essential materials elsewhere, look at the Quarian flotilla, they can crack deuterium for their needs, and they don't need to settle on planets to do so.

[quote]Saphra wrote...

True, but conventional theory holds that scanners and sensors can't operate beyond FTL speeds...[/quote]

They don't need to and the Reapers can physically go there at speeds many times the speed of light. To give you a little perspective, we could theoretically colonize the entire galaxy galaxy in only about 50 million years travelling at speeds many times slower than the speed of light. Say only 12 to 20% of C. The Reapers have tech that allows them to move at speeds upwards of a 100x (or many times faster) the speed of light. Many, many times faster. A few centuries is all it might take them.
[/quote]
The Reapers, as far as we can see so far at least, seem to be as dependent on Mass Relay travel as we are (or principles close to). Space is huge, there is no way that the Reapers can know where we will be before we do. They can make educated guesses perhaps, but they'll still need to travel there... and they might not be so keen to do so if they aren't sure.

If we can survive the initial onslaught, then our chances for some sort of action in response increases. It will not be bulletproof or whatever, but any opportunity we can take from learning from our experiences stands to relatively good chances of formulating tactics capable of beating them, even if it is just research into technological capacity.

[quote]Saphra wrote...
Why not? All it takes is one Reaper. There are hundreds of them. A methodical check of the relay network could be done in a relatively short time compared to the lifetime of a Reaper. A millenia spent scanning for other civilizations is nothing to them.
[/quote]
Because we aren't necessarily dependent upon planets any-more. In fact, settling on planets while running from the Reapers seems a little counter-intuitive to me in all honesty anyway. Small mining operations here and there for materials etc, etc.

[quote]Saphra wrote...
I agree with you but I also feel the Collector base won't be enough. Not nearly enough. We just don't have the time or resources.
[/quote]
Then we better dust off some shelved technology from within scientific organisations (the hypothetical faster-than-light travel that was abandoned at the discovery of the Prothean ruins on Mars), start researching opportunities in asymetrical warfare ('viruses' for example that would prevent Mass Relay's from connecting to other mass relay's if they don't receive a 'friendly' code or somesuch), exotic new weaponry (such as Directed Energy Weapons etc) and of course, researching and improving existing designs (higher output for Thanix weapon systems etc, etc).

Any information that can be gleaned from the Reapers themselves would take priority too (Sovereign wreckage? Reaper larva if *you* have it, etc, etc). 

Honestly, no stone should be left unturned.

Excellent analogy you made there too.
[/quote]

[Reever]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The quarian army is just fodder. Same with the geth, and the turians, and every fleet out there.

That´s also what the Codex says? Or else, why do you say it? Are you guessing? Or can you prove that it´s a fact? 

I find you position hilarious, and I hope you´re just playing the devil´s advocate - otherwise it´d be just sad ^^

[AntenDS]

I think in all this techno babble you guys are forgetting one main point. The Reapers hit the Citadel first because it is the focal point of all highly advance races. The Reapers don't fly around the galaxy in FTL or through Mass Relays searching for life. They go to the Citadel and download all the data that the races have accumulated over the time. And what is in this data? Every piece of info on where advance life forms are down to the street they live on. Why wasn't Illos culled? Because it was top secret and wasn't in the Citadel archives. The Reapers use the species it culls to do the work for them. To further this point is indoctrination. During the last culling they used sleeper agents to find out where life still was. A reason why they did this is mostly speculation on our part but it would point to the Reapers not wanting to comb the galaxy for life. The Reapers aren't all powerful goods they are just a programing on with a god complex.

Modifié par AntenDS, 03 avril 2011 - 03:11 .