1062 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Seriously. There can be several ways the Reapers may be defeated:

1. The Reapers are morons (the most implausible, but the most likely scenario, which would also cover a lot of plotholes in one giant swoop).

2. Super-weapon (for instance, Cerberus puts 16105317 puppies in a meat grinder and finds a way to equip every space ship with a reverse engineered Klendagon weapon).

3. Deus Ex Machina (for instance, the "beings of light" return to save us all).

Or any combination thereof.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 avril 2011 - 01:49 .

[Icinix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Seriously. There can be several ways the Reapers can be defeated:

1. The Reapers are morons (the most implausible, but the most likely scenario).

2. Super-weapon (for instance, Cerberus puts 16105317 puppies in a meet grinder and finds a way to equip every space ship with a reverse engineered Klendagon weapon).

3. Deus Ex Machina (for instance, the "beings of light" return to save us all).

Or any combination thereof.

You forgot the whole "It was a dream and shep is insane due to the prothean beacon and imagined the whole thing."

[Zulu_DFA]

Icinix wrote...

You forgot the whole "It was a dream and shep is insane due to the prothean beacon and imagined the whole thing."

If that is the case, the Reapers still may be defeated "in the dream". But yeah, I've kinda forgotten about it, thanks for the reminder.

Or do you mean, that "The Reapers aren't real, and it's all just some kind of TIM's scheme to take over the Galaxy"?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 avril 2011 - 07:14 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Those are some huge assumptions, Zulu. Is that your way of coping with the imminent eradication of all advanced sentient life?

That's all, of course, metagaming.

In-game, as far as the "coping" goes, my Shepard doesn't need to do it anyway. Everybody is going to die someday, but until that everybody must do their part. Shepard's part is shooting things and blowing stuff up, when and where TIM and Hackett say.

[Icinix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Or do you mean, that "The Reapers aren't real, and it's all just some kind of TIM's scheme to take over the Galaxy"?

"No! You must kill the Reapers!" Tim shouted at Shepard.
Shepard said "No, Tim. You are the Reapers"
And then Tim was an internet meme.

[Skirlasvoud]

Quite a while ago, as a biomedical student, I wrote a "Reaper" theorie thread on where the reapers may have come from and how they work. It's oddly missing now.

Basically, they're horribly flawed in their thinking and mode of operation as long as you're willing to take bioware seriously. Reap an entire race, just to get its genetic code? Obsess over a single individual of that race? Genetic paste for a metal mega baby?

Good lord. I'm just a biomedical aprentice living in the 21st century, but this makes even me chuckle how hacknied these procedures are. You don't need to reap an entire race to get its code. A few subtle samples taken randomly and PCR will do that without pissing off the rest of the galaxy. Shepard isn't special because he is supposed to have unique genes; it's a mundane combination and his character. To go after a single individual is like african witchdoctors butchering albino children because their bones have magical properties. And than there's that odd way in which they reproduce and the way in which they speak. They trust that indoctrination will do all the work for them, like we're the machines and we just need our switches flicked.

It reeks of over-the-top sercuitous villainy, blindness and utter stupidity. It their actions are anything to go by, the reapers aren't insidious geniuses helbent on subtle manipulation that takes all organic reaction into account. No, they're actually rigid, daft and narrow-minded, so convinced in their own superiority that they refuse to improve or adept. Granted, they have some pretty good, grand plans, but they've been repeating them over and over with no more intelligence than a common gopher. They're more like machines following programing. Plan A was to take the citadel. Plan B was the collectors and now that this hasn't worked, they're slowly ambling towards the galaxy, obsessed with shepard and earth like a bull to a red cloth, guns blazing, blind to all other concerns like they're desperate and running out of creative ideas. It's like they need earth to understand why things haven't worked out for them so far. It's like a zombie pawing at a pane of glass.


They're not going to run when the citadel races confront them and the odds appear against them. They're going to be like the Death Star.

"Fatal flaw in our design? Naw, can't be. We're reapers after all. We've done the things we've done for millenia now. Attention flecks of dust, this is infinity and your destiny speaking. Stand still and surrender already.... (pretty please)? Pay no heed to the exaust port while we figure out our heads from our asses!"

For all their bluster, they're more desperate, flawed and stupid than you think. We just need to find a way to exploit this and mitigate their advantage in fleet strength. Because it's all down to that now: fleet strength. Pretty big advantage, but its pretty pathetic that this is all that the reapers have left to them. We can easily outsmart them, no matter how terrifying they appear to be. 

All I'm left wandering about, is if they're actually smart enough to realize all this. They're probably too daft to do so.

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 04 avril 2011 - 07:49 .

[Stick668]

Heh. I like this cheerfully defeatist attitude. I mean, it's reasonable and flies in the face of narrative logic. Or at least the - currently applicable - individual hero space opera narrative logic.

Saphra Deden wrote...

in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely.

This is certainly a problem, especially when one side has no static location to defend.

Here's the solution: Warp Scrambler

Sure, you may have to traverse a wormhole and cross into an alternate universe to get your hands on one of these, but as any self-respecting internet space pirate will tell you, they're gosh-darned effective. And a humble covert ops frigate can certainly keep a dreadnought in place for a bit, just by virtue of being a too-small target. Well, until combat drones, smartbombs, capacitor warfare, sensor jamming or bog-standard backup happens.

But still. 

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

There's also narrative causality. 
You know, there's nothing more certain than a one in a million chance.

To be fair, those only work nine times out of ten. Which aren't... bad... odds? Gnnaaarrrgh. 

TheSimsMaster wrote...
Of course we'll win. We got God on our side! Well, at least Ashley does.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Yes, but do we have Ashley on our side? Has it been Confirmed?

Also, while Ashley's faith might be enough to paint her as an insufferable fundie in the eyes of some, her god really seems to be the mainly hands-off, slightly poetry-inducing Deistic version who helps those who bring bigger guns...
Which brings us snugly back to to square one.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

I am not entertained by a game I cannot win.
I am pissed off by a game I cannot win.

You sure? I mean, yeah, I'm just arguing for the sake of it here, but I think that was the point of the thread.

There's this semi-popular ye olde RPG where, at the end, even in the best-case scenario you go to Hell. Forever.
(The other scenarios involve going to Hell after getting all your friends really, really killed.)

And let's not mention any and all arcade-style games where you by definition can not "win". You can just survive longer than the last time.

It's entirely possible to make a story-based game have a satisfying "downer" ending. I highly doubt this will happen here, of course. (I have faith the eventual Magic Bullet will be more Babylon 5 than Independance Day, but the real question - the real game - is about the journey, not the ending.) 

This has been your spare-change contribution from the land of Too Much Coffee.

Carry on.

Modifié par Stick668, 04 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[Dave666]

Stick668 wrote...

Heh. I like this cheerfully defeatist attitude. I mean, it's reasonable and flies in the face of narrative logic. Or at least the - currently applicable - individual hero space opera narrative logic.

Saphra Deden wrote...

in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely.

This is certainly a problem, especially when one side has no static location to defend.

Here's the solution: Warp Scrambler

Sure, you may have to traverse a wormhole and cross into an alternate universe to get your hands on one of these, but as any self-respecting internet space pirate will tell you, they're gosh-darned effective. And a humble covert ops frigate can certainly keep a dreadnought in place for a bit, just by virtue of being a too-small target. Well, until combat drones, smartbombs, capacitor warfare, sensor jamming or bog-standard backup happens.

But still. 

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

There's also narrative causality. 
You know, there's nothing more certain than a one in a million chance.

To be fair, those only work nine times out of ten. Which aren't... bad... odds? Gnnaaarrrgh. 

TheSimsMaster wrote...
Of course we'll win. We got God on our side! Well, at least Ashley does.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Yes, but do we have Ashley on our side? Has it been Confirmed?

Also, while Ashley's faith might be enough to paint her as an insufferable fundie in the eyes of some, her god really seems to be the mainly hands-off, slightly poetry-inducing Deistic version who helps those who bring bigger guns...
Which brings us snugly back to to square one.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

I am not entertained by a game I cannot win.
I am pissed off by a game I cannot win.

You sure? I mean, yeah, I'm just arguing for the sake of it here, but I think that was the point of the thread.

There's this semi-popular ye olde RPG where, at the end, even in the best-case scenario you go to Hell. Forever.
(The other scenarios involve going to Hell after getting all your friends really, really killed.)

And let's not mention any and all arcade-style games where you by definition can not "win". You can just survive longer than the last time.

It's entirely possible to make a story-based game have a satisfying "downer" ending. I highly doubt this will happen here, of course. (I have faith the eventual Magic Bullet will be more Babylon 5 than Independance Day, but the real question - the real game - is about the journey, not the ending.) 

This has been your spare-change contribution from the land of Too Much Coffee.

Carry on.

Ahhh, happy memories! My favourite rpg of all time!  Planescape:Torment

'What can change the nature of a man?'

Modifié par Dave666, 04 avril 2011 - 09:27 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

Stick668 wrote...

Heh. I like this cheerfully defeatist attitude. I mean, it's reasonable and flies in the face of narrative logic. Or at least the - currently applicable - individual hero space opera narrative logic.

Saphra Deden wrote...

in space-borne combat the combatants can flee at any time. If at any point one side feels it is losing the battle it can turn tale and run away. It can do this infinitely.

This is certainly a problem, especially when one side has no static location to defend.

Here's the solution: Warp Scrambler

Sure, you may have to traverse a wormhole and cross into an alternate universe to get your hands on one of these, but as any self-respecting internet space pirate will tell you, they're gosh-darned effective. And a humble covert ops frigate can certainly keep a dreadnought in place for a bit, just by virtue of being a too-small target. Well, until combat drones, smartbombs, capacitor warfare, sensor jamming or bog-standard backup happens.

But still. 

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

There's also narrative causality. 
You know, there's nothing more certain than a one in a million chance.

To be fair, those only work nine times out of ten. Which aren't... bad... odds? Gnnaaarrrgh. 

TheSimsMaster wrote...
Of course we'll win. We got God on our side! Well, at least Ashley does.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Yes, but do we have Ashley on our side? Has it been Confirmed?

Also, while Ashley's faith might be enough to paint her as an insufferable fundie in the eyes of some, her god really seems to be the mainly hands-off, slightly poetry-inducing Deistic version who helps those who bring bigger guns...
Which brings us snugly back to to square one.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

I am not entertained by a game I cannot win.
I am pissed off by a game I cannot win.

You sure? I mean, yeah, I'm just arguing for the sake of it here, but I think that was the point of the thread.

There's this semi-popular ye olde RPG where, at the end, even in the best-case scenario you go to Hell. Forever.
(The other scenarios involve going to Hell after getting all your friends really, really killed.)

And let's not mention any and all arcade-style games where you by definition can not "win". You can just survive longer than the last time.

It's entirely possible to make a story-based game have a satisfying "downer" ending. I highly doubt this will happen here, of course. (I have faith the eventual Magic Bullet will be more Babylon 5 than Independance Day, but the real question - the real game - is about the journey, not the ending.) 

This has been your spare-change contribution from the land of Too Much Coffee.

Carry on.

Oddly enough, yes I am sure. Don't get me wrong, I can get some modicum of enjoyment from games prior to the downer ending, but as soon as that ending hits, the effect is powerful enough to wipe out the 'fun' I had playing the game. Worse, I can never re-play the game again, because I know that downer ending is waiting for me. 

Now, we could argue back and forth about the nature of enjoyment, and how the real fun comes from the journey and not the destination... But for me, that's a crock of beans. Sure, a road trip can be fun, but if it ends in Sh*tStain, New Jersey... Well then for me, the trip wasn't worth it. I want my happy ending. I want all the effort I put into a game to mean something in the end. I want to be victorious. I want to stand at the end of a game, battered, wounded, but alive, with a heap of my slain enemies all around me and the girl of my dreams beside me. 

I get enough unhappy endings in real life. I neither need nor want it in my games. 

And on another note: I've never finished Planescape Torment. Now that I know how it ends, I won't be finishing it. 

I'm dead serious about my happy endings. If I don't get one, the game isn't worth my time. 

[Nathan Redgrave]

You know, there is the distinct possibility that Mass Effect 3 won't necessarily end with the complete defeat of the Reapers, simply with the end of the first battle in a long, long war. (Not a "buy the sequel" cliffhanger or a "bad ending," simply an open-ended conclusion that leaves the fate of the galaxy to the imagination, or which reveals the eventual result during an epilogue.)

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 04 avril 2011 - 09:46 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

2. Super-weapon (for instance, Cerberus puts 16105317 puppies in a meet grinder and finds a way to equip every space ship with a reverse engineered Klendagon weapon).

Why reverse-engineer when the original is still around?

[Dave666]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

2. Super-weapon (for instance, Cerberus puts 16105317 puppies in a meet grinder and finds a way to equip every space ship with a reverse engineered Klendagon weapon).

Why reverse-engineer when the original is still around?

Devil's Advocate: Reverse Engineering allows one to understand how something works and then reproduce it.  Whats better? One super weapon stuck on a planet? Or several mounted on ships?

Modifié par Dave666, 04 avril 2011 - 10:30 .

[Dave666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I doubt the Klendagon weapon is anything more than a really really big mass accelerator.

Same here, however, since we don't know that for certain the writers can make it whatever they want (within reason).

[ashwind]

B)Shap: "We may not win, we may die but we will keep fighting! That is what humans do!!"

 (Harby): "... .. . so you are a moron..."

Modifié par ashwind, 04 avril 2011 - 10:58 .

[zthix]

To OP: Crazy crack pot theory in Reaper defeat - the Geth!

Throughout the games we have it reiterated that the Reapers seeded the galaxy with their technology to ensure its development followed their designs and ease their harvesting. Every cycle repeats along the same path as each new group of civilisations builds its existence upon the same technology assuming it was remnants of the previous. The Reaper rely on consistency for the plan to work, anything not on their path is a problem that they cant quantify and leaves a weakness.

Enter Mass Effect 2 and Geth further development. We find out one big thing in conversation with Legion - that the Reaper contacted the Geth and offered them their end game, a Reaper body capable of processing the entire Geth consciousness - the Geth having been working on just that. The Geth were split, some took up the offer and joined the Reaper attack on the Citadel but more importantly the larger group declined the offer on the basis that to follow another's path of development is not development at all. Despite Reaper efforts on containment this puts the Geth outside the plan and outside their control and predictability the very things they rely on to harvest the galaxy.

Lastly you have to look at what the Reaper are (indeed conversation again with Legion are the most revealing on this). Each single Reaper is billions of AI living within a hull all working together. The Hull or ship itself is pretty much unstoppable - see ME1 - So a fleet could be never be engaged in direct combat with any chance of success as hardware wise they over power any enemy in the galaxy...but the same is not true of software. The Geth exist in the same state but on a smaller scale, Legion is thousands of programs working within one unit.

All of this seems to lead to one conclusion, a Reaper fleet can not be beaten directly in combat and would have to be taken out individually through Cyber Warfare and the only thing in the Galaxy capable of launching that kind of attack and standing any kind of chance would be the Geth. The Geth exist outside Reaper plans and technological dependence and would be able to fight in a way no other force could, they are the big X-factor in the harvesting plan so in short, Geth to the rescue!

[Kaiser Shepard]

Dave666 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

2. Super-weapon (for instance, Cerberus puts 16105317 puppies in a meet grinder and finds a way to equip every space ship with a reverse engineered Klendagon weapon).

Why reverse-engineer when the original is still around?

Devil's Advocate: Reverse Engineering allows one to understand how something works and then reproduce it.  Whats better? One super weapon stuck on a planet? Or several mounted on ships?

True, as would be the case with Sovereign's remains or preserving the Collector Base. However, the Klendagon weapon is - like Saphra said - 'just' a mass accelerator; rather common technology, albeit implemented on a scale not seen before.

My money's on it being Omega, what with the Reapers recognizing Omega's interior and 'commenting' on it. That, combined with its shape and the fact that it is rooted in an eezo-rich meteor, the possible depletion of which probably explaining why it currently is defunct. Either that, or - like the Citadel before it - its 'control panel' having been found yet. TIM's current alliance with Aria is probably to get close to the weapon, with his cronies now having near unrestricted access and freedom on Omega, so that it can be used in the third game.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 04 avril 2011 - 11:22 .

[nikki191]

Ultai wrote...

OP is indoctrinated. Kidding aside, I hope the fight for survival involves much bloodshed, no 'everyone lives happily ever after all crew safe all favorite npcs safe ending'. I enjoyed getting my crew through the SM, but the collectors were pushovers. I really hope Reapers put in some hopelessness into the player for the final installment. But us being Reapers regardless won't pan out, since the franchise won't end with me3.

its a war which will result in hundreds of thousands if not millions or billions of deaths.personally i would like to see shepard wiping out the reaper fleet with a induced supernova..preferably while sitting on the bomb that does it with a cowboy hat

Modifié par nikki191, 04 avril 2011 - 01:03 .

[Soahfreako]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Seriously. There can be several ways the Reapers may be defeated:

1. The Reapers are morons (the most implausible, but the most likely scenario, which would also cover a lot of plotholes in one giant swoop).

2. Super-weapon (for instance, Cerberus puts 16105317 puppies in a meet grinder and finds a way to equip every space ship with a reverse engineered Klendagon weapon).

3. Deus Ex Machina (for instance, the "beings of light" return to save us all).

Or any combination thereof.

Completely forgot about the beings of light. That is even more beleivable than destroying them via relay 'splosion.

[Soahfreako]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Soahfreako wrote...

 I said Earth is small compared to many other planets. It is you who doesn't have a sense of scale.

The moon is small compared to other planets too but if you tried to walk across it on foot it how long do you suppose it might take you? Even our mere moon dwarfs a Reaper in size and the Earth is much larger than the moon.

Again, you have no sense of scale.

Again you don't realize that the Reapers don't have feet and have to fly everywhere. I forgot, walking is faster than flying, correct? Orrrr was it the other way around? Hmm.

[Devgil]

Am I going to get a response at all?

[Soahfreako]

Devgil wrote...

Am I going to get a response at all?

Now that you've asked for one, I suspect the possibility of you getting a response would be about 5.73%. But now that I've said this someone will respond to spite me so now your probability is not 85.96%.

Modifié par Soahfreako, 04 avril 2011 - 01:13 .

[Dave666]

Soahfreako wrote...

Devgil wrote...

Am I going to get a response at all?

Now that you've asked for one, I suspect the possibility of you getting a response would be about 5.73%. But now that I've said this someone will respond to spite me so now your probability is not 85.96%.

I'm going to second this to up your percentage. 

btw I'm still going through the thread and looking for yours. 


*edit* Ok just read it and...er...what?

Using the Dark Matter that causes the Galaxy to spin to throw the Reapers out of the Galaxy?  Wouldn't that tear the Galaxy apart?  Or have I mis-interpreted it?

Modifié par Dave666, 04 avril 2011 - 01:25 .

[Hibernating]

You forget this is bioware.
You will assemble all the races of the galaxy at your back in a massive fleet then drop out of the relay into sol, the most epic scene of all time will occur with every desicion you ever made coming into effect and the most incredible musical number ever made in the background.
And at some point your brain will hemorrhage from the awesome and you wont need to know you lost.