1062 réponses à ce sujet

[Jagri]

Sajuro wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

We just need to think "What would Kamina do?" so the answer is we need to somehow hijack a reaper, once we figure out how to avoid indoctrination it'll work

three words: GIGA DRILL BREAKER!
oh and

Wait wasn't that thing throwing galaxies at its enemy like ninja stars?

[Sajuro]

Jagri wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

We just need to think "What would Kamina do?" so the answer is we need to somehow hijack a reaper, once we figure out how to avoid indoctrination it'll work

three words: GIGA DRILL BREAKER!
oh and

Wait wasn't that thing throwing galaxies at its enemy like ninja stars?

no, that was the one made of a huge dreadnought.
you are thinking of this

[Jagri]

Oh yes thats... Ultra-Spiral Space Superdreadnought Gunmen Super Galactic Gurren Lagann

"Our friends' hopes and dreams are etched into its body! Transforming this infinite darkness into light! Unmatched in Heaven and Earth! One machine, equal to the GODS! SUPER GALAXY...GURREN LAGANN!! We're gonna show you the power... of the human race."

[GuardianAngel470]

Two words: Superior Creativity.

We don't need a deus Ex, we need an actual strategy and for Bioware to clarify one single concept about the Reapers: Their shields.

If their shields function like personal shields or normal ship shields, there is a way.

If they don't, then we have to resort to a deus Ex sort of thing.

[Trystane75]

I can think of multiple sollutions how the reapers might be defeated:

1. If the reapers are independend, their might be factions that oppose the cicle of destruction - Reaper Civil war.

2. Maybe Shepard and his team will manage to create a super-virus that seriously weekens the reapers so they can be defeated

3. Time travel... maybe the team manages to step back in time where the reapers are still young and week... Paragon: there you manage to change them not to turn all out destructive. Renegade: Wipe them out.

[Ice Cold J]

Nashiktal wrote...

concentrated fleets? One concentrated fleet was crippled by a handicapped reaper. (Fifth fleet)

One concentrated reaper fleet will trump any concentrated fleet they might face so far. You need an edge, a card.

The Alliance themselves have several "fleets." The Quarians have the largest fleet in the galaxy. I'm sure the Asari and Salarians have their own fleets. The Turians are renowned for the strength of their fleets. The Rachni (if you saved them) will have their own fleet. We know the Geth have their own fleet.

There could literally be 100 combined fleets in the galaxy to meet the Reaper fleet. It's not necessarily a slaughter waiting to happen. The Alliance fleet that fought a "crippled" Reaper lost 8 cruisers. Those aren't horrible casualties.

Fiddles_stix wrote...

BioWare aren't silly if they put in a deus ex machina item, it'll link back to the protheans and fit under the inevitable discovery claim. I'm more concerned with a Revan ending for Shepard

You mean KOTOR SPOILERS!!! Shepard has the option to be the savior of the galaxy or to become the Reapers new puppet?

Modifié par Ice Cold J, 07 avril 2011 - 01:55 .

[Nashiktal]

Ice Cold J wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

concentrated fleets? One concentrated fleet was crippled by a handicapped reaper. (Fifth fleet)

One concentrated reaper fleet will trump any concentrated fleet they might face so far. You need an edge, a card.

The Alliance themselves have several "fleets." The Quarians have the largest fleet in the galaxy. I'm sure the Asari and Salarians have their own fleets. The Turians are renowned for the strength of their fleets. The Rachni (if you saved them) will have their own fleet. We know the Geth have their own fleet.

There could literally be 100 combined fleets in the galaxy to meet the Reaper fleet. It's not necessarily a slaughter waiting to happen. The Alliance fleet that fought a "crippled" Reaper lost 8 cruisers. Those aren't horrible casualties.

Fiddles_stix wrote...

BioWare aren't silly if they put in a deus ex machina item, it'll link back to the protheans and fit under the inevitable discovery claim. I'm more concerned with a Revan ending for Shepard

You mean KOTOR SPOILERS!!! Shepard has the option to be the savior of the galaxy or to become the Reapers new puppet?

Are you kidding me? Eight cruisers is a terrible loss of manpower and ships. You know how long it will take to replace those cruiser? Not in time for the reaper arrival. 

Consider this. One reaper, all but impervious to several cruisers fire (those ships were origionally supposed to be dreadnoughts in the story, there was intercommunication problems though and they ended up cruisers. there are more reasons why for fluff and development reasons, but that could be an entire post within itself.) plus the Destiny Ascension killed eight cruisers without even slowing down.

What would happen if that same reaper didn't need to hunker down in that one spot? The reapers are just as fast as the normandy, and twice as manuervable. (Source, citadel battle cutscene, Joker's comments on Virmire.) They also have the firepower to kill cruisers in a single shot.

So should we use dreadnoughts? Well according to fluff, dreads become near useless in "knife fight" range. I.E, the range in which the geth fleet engaged the Destiny Ascension. Did you see the speed in which that reaper rammed that Turian vessel? A fleet of reapers with that speed could zoom right past any ship it pleases and take out the bigger targets.

The only real weakness we have seen so far, (Aside from plot stupidity) is when their mass effect core is disrupted. This has caused sovvy to be vulnerable to fifth fleet, and caused the "dead" reaper to lose its ability to maintain orbit and shields.

solution? We need to somehow mess with their ME cores.

How? No idea.

[Ieldra]

Nashiktal wrote...
The only real weakness we have seen so far, (Aside from plot stupidity) is when their mass effect core is disrupted. This has caused sovvy to be vulnerable to fifth fleet, and caused the "dead" reaper to lose its ability to maintain orbit and shields.

No, that wasn't what happened with Sovereign. The ME core was - most likely - not damaged. The problem was that Sovereign had uploaded a part of its consciousness into Zombie-Saren. Destroying Zombie-Saren incapacitated Sovereign, but it is far more likely that the intelligence controlling some of the Reaper's internal functions was temporarily disabled rather than the ME core directly. Somewhat like an electric shock delivered to the brain that makes you unable to move your legs but doesn't actually do any damage to them. Or how would you connect damage to an ME core to destroying Zombie-Saren?

What we need to "mess with" is the Reaper's controlling mind. Since by Sovereign's example it is established that that mind can connect to external things through the otherwise unsurmountable shields, that's the road in for any weapon effect. 

I have built a scenario that exploits that vulnerability on a large scale. See my thread The end of the Reaper War - a believable scenario. It is admittedly a scenario condensed for dramatic effect, and yes, if the Reapers were perfect and never made mistakes it would be extremely unlikely for them to lose. In my scenario they make one mistake - I think that mistake is an excusable one, especially given the Reapers' overconfidence.

[Il Divo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, that wasn't what happened with Sovereign. The ME core was - most likely - not damaged. The problem was that Sovereign had uploaded a part of its consciousness into Zombie-Saren. Destroying Zombie-Saren incapacitated Sovereign, but it is far more likely that the intelligence controlling some of the Reaper's internal functions was temporarily disabled rather than the ME core directly. Somewhat like an electric shock delivered to the brain that makes you unable to move your legs but doesn't actually do any damage to them. Or how would you connect damage to an ME core to destroying Zombie-Saren?

But do we know that this is actually the case? I know that it was remarkably convenient how the two died in conjunction with each other, but I wasn't sure if there is a confirmed link between the two.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Destroying Zombie-Saren incapacitated Sovereign,

I wish to see some proof of this other than that Sovereign's shields collapsed after a continuous barrage by the entire 5th Fleet simultaneously with Saren-Frogger's end. becasue this could be entirely coincidental, you know, and in ME2 Harbinger can "upload" itself to any Collector immediately after its previous avatar is put down. Although, as far as we can tell, it's not an "upload" at all, more like a videogame for Harby, so there is no more reason Sovereign should have been hurt, than the real you should be hurt when your Shepard meets a "critical mission falure".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 avril 2011 - 03:48 .

[Ahriman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I wish to see some proof of this other than that Sovereigns shields collapsed after a continuous barrage by the entire 5th Fleet simultaneously with Saren-Frogger's end. becasue this could be entirely coincidental, you know, and in ME2 Harbinger can "upload" itself to any Collector immediately after its previous avataris put down. And, as far as we know, it's not an "upload" at all, more like a videogame for Harby, so there is nomore  reason Sovereign should have been hurt than the real you is hurt when your Shepard meet a "critical mission falure".

Not only Sovereign's shield were disabled, he all was disabled, just look this scene again. Yes, it's not an upload, but it's strong connection and requires many energy. Maybe even 'unsafe' disconnection played the role.

Harbinger used Collector General as fuse, that's why he was able to assume control so often.

Yes, I know that it's just my assumptions.

[Destroy Raiden_]

There was a link between Saren and Sovereign when you speak with Saren he tells you. There is an obvious connection between saren and sovereign I suppose it has to do with the fact sovereign is always in Saren's mind he says " Sovereign sensed my hesitance and so he upgraded me," Saren didnt ' sound happy on the upgrades.

The sense part indicates a mental connection between the two and once Saren's body died Sovereign switched on those upgrades and made terminator Saren once we killed TSaren it stunned Sovereign I'd say put him/it into a shock state and while he was working on getting whatever systems up and running shields caved and the fleet got him.

So having someone volunteer or in Sheps case be wired to be used as a reaper pawn he could get possessed by a reaper willingly do this himself or unwillingly get taken over if people can defeat his human then reaper infused self then they can get the reaper but the problem with said tactic is its on a reaper by reaper bases I think we'd run out of people to " volunteer" for the effort before we got all the reapers and the reapers would at some point catch on to the tactic.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 07 avril 2011 - 03:58 .

[Ieldra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Destroying Zombie-Saren incapacitated Sovereign,

I wish to see some proof of this other than that Sovereign's shields collapsed after a continuous barrage by the entire 5th Fleet simultaneously with Saren-Frogger's end. becasue this could be entirely coincidental, you know, and in ME2 Harbinger can "upload" itself to any Collector immediately after its previous avatar is put down. Although, as far as we can tell, it's not an "upload" at all, more like a videogame for Harby, so there is no more reason Sovereign should have been hurt, than the real you should be hurt when your Shepard meets a "critical mission falure".

Of course I cannot exactly prove that. But while I cannot achieve certainty, the rules of probability suggest that this was not a coincidence. I'd rather find an explanation for why Harbinger was not so affected. I'd say he knew to go for the "videogame" instead of "possession" because he knows what happened to Sovereign...

[Ieldra]

And to add:
The evidence suggests that I rather assume ZSaren's death incapacitated Sovereign until proven otherwise, than to assume it is a coincidence until proven otherwise.

[J0HNL3I]

even if we can't win, we will still fight because thats what we do

Modifié par J0HNL3I, 07 avril 2011 - 04:28 .

[MisterJB]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
 in ME2 Harbinger can "upload" itself to any Collector immediately after its previous avatar is put down. Although, as far as we can tell, it's not an "upload" at all, more like a videogame for Harby, so there is no more reason Sovereign should have been hurt, than the real you should be hurt when your Shepard meets a "critical mission falure".

Except that Harbinger was controlling the Collectors through his real Avatar, the Collector General who must have worked like a filter. I dare say, had the Collector General been killed while Harbinger was in Direct Control, it would mean to him what Saren's death meant to Sovereign. What that is, we don't know. Was Sovereign simply temporarely weakened or killing his Avatar destroyed his mind?
Expect to fight a lot of Avatars in ME3.

[Sajuro]

Wizz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I wish to see some proof of this other than that Sovereigns shields collapsed after a continuous barrage by the entire 5th Fleet simultaneously with Saren-Frogger's end. becasue this could be entirely coincidental, you know, and in ME2 Harbinger can "upload" itself to any Collector immediately after its previous avataris put down. And, as far as we know, it's not an "upload" at all, more like a videogame for Harby, so there is nomore  reason Sovereign should have been hurt than the real you is hurt when your Shepard meet a "critical mission falure".

Not only Sovereign's shield were disabled, he all was disabled, just look this scene again. Yes, it's not an upload, but it's strong connection and requires many energy. Maybe even 'unsafe' disconnection played the role.

Harbinger used Collector General as fuse, that's why he was able to assume control so often.

Yes, I know that it's just my assumptions.

and why he released control before the collector general was blown the hell up, giving us that sad moment as the general was finally able to act of its own will just before death.
Also the Reapers released control of Grayson just before he died, if it was a video game then the Reapers would do better to suicide charge when Grayson was dieing but then you would see a disabled cuttlefish floating through darkspace.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Harbinger didn't get hurt because he was doing 2nd party possession via the general. The general is probably getting his mind wracked everytime you paste one of his puppets, but the Reaper doesn't care. We see the same thing with Grayson. Grayson feels it when his arms are broken and he takes bullets but he can't do anything about it because the reapers are in control. I think that's also why Harbinger releases control right before the base goes at the end. Otherwise, who wouldn't want to stick around and watch a bigass explosion like that in the 1st person without fear of death?

I've never really understood why it is that Sovereign gets so messed up when Saren bites it. I would think that a mega-computer with billions of threads running wouldn't miss the few hundred or so it had to put into Saren's body. Surely Sovereign didn't have to put even close to 100% of himself in that one body. Maybe one of the Bioware guys could clear that one up since the likelyhood of getting that answer anywhere else is close to 0? That would be nice.

[Sajuro]

J0HNL3I wrote...

even if we can't win, we will still fight because thats what we do

Our Thanix cannons are the ones that will pierce the heavens into tomorrow!
Who the hell do you think we are?

[MisterJB]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
I've never really understood why it is that Sovereign gets so messed up when Saren bites it. I would think that a mega-computer with billions of threads running wouldn't miss the few hundred or so it had to put into Saren's body. Surely Sovereign didn't have to put even close to 100% of himself in that one body. Maybe one of the Bioware guys could clear that one up since the likelyhood of getting that answer anywhere else is close to 0? That would be nice.

Perhaps Sovereign, in his arrogance, considered that Saren's weak flesh could be the Reaper's undoing in a battle against Shepard  and so he put more of himself on Saren's corpse than he left on his true "perfect"  Reaper body. Hence the backlash.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 avril 2011 - 04:47 .

[miklis]

Allwide plot answer: Shepard becomes a reaper *nods*

[J0HNL3I]

Sajuro wrote...

J0HNL3I wrote...

even if we can't win, we will still fight because thats what we do

Our Thanix cannons are the ones that will pierce the heavens into tomorrow!
Who the hell do you think we are?

people who arnt reapers

[ZLurps]

LordShrike wrote...

[sing/]"Ooo, don't nerf the Reapers..."[/sing]

:D

"Seasons don't fear the reaper --- Nor do the wind, the sun or the rain.. we can be like they are"



Inspiring stuff in this topic... "Leave earth alone! BioWare will tell you so!" I got an idea how Reapers could be defeated by a single person.
I think there could be even options... one one would be using Shepards dialogue diplomatic skills, dialogue. Other would be making another resurrection. Anyway, end result would be throwing this: www.youtube.com/watch against the face of Reapers.

NO! KEEP THAT HIDEOS FREAK OUT OF US!  - SOVVY'S REMAINING TENTACLE

Umm... Now I just can't make up my mind if that would that then be Paragon or Renegade option? Or something too horrible to do even in desperate battle against Reapers? What would be the cost? How would galactic spacefaring races react to that kind of threat. I mean would anyone even trade with humans after that?

But then, there are actually couple of ideas in this thread that are pretty good, just one here:

Dave666 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Check
out the codex the mass of what's being "corridored" or "teleported" has
to be calculated - I postulate just screwing with that on the receiving
end via the Citadel.  Citadel control of the mass relays is definitely
worth investigating methinks.

I still have
serious doubts about the whole teleportation thing, however your idea of
screwing with the mass calculations is a very good one!

You
don't have to call it teleportation, just mainly making the point about
the mass, which you agree with - giddyup.  Yup an entire fleet of
Reaper legs and eyeballs - with the rest of their bodies scattered
across a galaxy - will put a real damper in their morning.

Yup!
You've gotta wonder what would happen to a ship that weighed 100 tonnes
if you told the Relay that it weighed 50 tonnes or 500 tonnes...

* Applauses *

Yep, I have been wondering about this too. Another possibility might be hacking the mass relays so that Reaper(s) in middle of jump end inside of a star or a black hole. IIRC Mass relay travel is almost instant. Did jump from Citadel to Ilos took like 8 seconds? If so it might be able to get several Reapers destroyed at once. That might be very important because Reapers might not fall twice into same trick.

It's been difficult to make make theories about that because there isn't much material concerning how much controll The Citadel and dark switches have over mass relays, but using something like this to at least even the odds could be a good idea.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And to add:
The evidence suggests that I rather assume ZSaren's death incapacitated Sovereign until proven otherwise, than to assume it is a coincidence until proven otherwise.

Which evidence, other than the coincidence itself? That's unscientific, to say the least.

Besides, that was also a switch from the gameplay "final boss" sequence, to the cutscene "cavalry saves the day" sequence. And those cutscenes aren't exactly known for good directing... (although it was way better than shotting glass retorts and fiery eyes of the Space Terminator...)

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 avril 2011 - 07:16 .