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[Nashiktal]

Moiaussi wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Having finished another ME1 play through this morning I remember Vigil saying that once the Reapers took the Citadel, they closed all relays to non-reaper traffic. Sovereign says that the mass relays and citadel are left in place to make sure that organic technology develops along specific lines. So FTL propulsion relies on the mass relays - but if the Reapers can control the relays (such that only their IFF can use them for instance) they can strand any fugitive fleet and hunt it down or starve them out.

It is possible though to travel without using the relays. It is less efficient but doable. If we can figure out how to unlock relays, we may even be able to keep using them.

Edit: This is especially true if we blow them up behind us. If we break the chain, it might end up with the Reapers being the ones having to follow using conventional propulsion. If we spread them thin enough as they look for us, we might even end up in situations where we can ambush them.

Traveling without the relays is a bigger problem than simple efficiency mate.

[LGTX]

Some spoilers for Mass Effect 1, 2, Retribution, and story spoilers for Mass Effect 3 in this post.

From the lore perspective your points make sense. But I guess that Mass Effect 3's story will be there for the sole reason to prove all of those arguments untrue, or at least try to do so. What I'm betting for is that the Reapers have a seriosuly screwed-over attack plan to work with.

I mean, the way they operated during the previous cycles makes you think that they knew they were vulnerable and potentially defeatable, and that is why they used to essentially spring their forces out at the Citadel, quickly used the element of surprise to clear the station, and gain control to the relays to then isolate and work with each habitable system separately.

That is why they probably spent a crapload of, ahem, manpower to construct the relay networks and ensure the developmental route of every spacefaring species.

I know you'll counterargument that it's simply a more economic way of waging genocide, but there is no denying that it also may be a way to prevent total defeat on the Reapers' side. Not to mention the indoctrination and - as we got from more recent ME3 news - usage of mutilated alien races as their ground forces. 

Thus, we only know what the Reaper(s) are capable of against sole systems one at a time. We don't really know how they'll stack up against a galactic fleet. 

Of course, then comes the Sovereign argument and how it decimated the combined forces of the Citadel and Fifth fleets. But then there's the dead Reaper shell the Illusive Man discovered which was shot down with a mass accelerator so freaking powerful that it dashed a rift in a planet on its way to its target (an element which might see resolution in ME3) , but the target eventually was shot down, and the shot was single. 

I'm thinking that the Reapers are very much defeatable, we just don't... battle them in the right ways. 

Because what did they do once Sovy was out? They started doing run-and-flee abductions to use the most potentially dangerous species to construct a new Reaper, and here's my reasoning behind this (because yeah, many think the whole ME2 main plotline is rendered useless in face of the Reaper story arc): the Reapers are made out of the genetic material of species on which they are based on, right? Now, we also know, once again from more recent sources concerning ME3, that Reapers vary dramatically in size, and, possibly, in power - since we'll have Reaper bossfights which might actually end with given baddies dying, and smaller Reapers getting their asses handed to them by a friggin' space worms. 

So given the... potential of human genetic paste, the Human Reaper might have had become the most powerful Reaper yet, and a possible ace in the sleeve for the rest of the armada to rely on since they now had to deal with a vigilant galaxy through the front gates.

And their general tactics also always seemed elusive to me. I mean, I have seen the argument that indoctrination was a risk-minimizing tool to simply speed up the harvesting process, but the way they overuse it, and the way they try to convince us that they are defeatable with empty threats make it almost seem like they are afraid we might for a second assume otherwise.

And I haven't mentioned the whole backroom stuff Sovy was up to prior to the Battle fo the Citadel, provoking the Rachni wars and spoiling the Geth's reputation and all that. It was intentionally dividing the races and igniting conflicts to use the ageless tactic of finishing off battered enemies. And to stoop even lower, they made observations of the crappiest of details on our mundane day-to-day routine during the control of Grayson's body in Retribution, eager to grasp on our most pathetic weaknesses on all levels of our existential infrastructure. Know your enemy? Economic genocide? Or maybe desperation?

My whole point being: if they are so goddamn powerful and undefeatable, why do they even care about the street layouts of Omega and similar pointless crap? There's too much illogicality surrounding their agenda, methinks. I'm looking forward to how ME3 resolves it all.

And yes, for what it covers, I agree with the post. There definitely has to be at least a supportive new way of taking the Reapers down if that's gonna happen at all.

Modifié par LGTX, 21 mai 2011 - 06:58 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
The galactic fleet doesn't have enough firepower. All the dreadnoughts and all the cruisers and frigates in the galaxy armed with Thanix cannons won't be enough. We might manage to take out a fraction of the Reaper fleet, maybe more than anyone else ever has in the history of the cycle, but it won't win us the war. There are just too many of them.

And you know this how, exactly?

[Nashiktal]

That would be the collector general he is talking through.

[DarkNova50]

The problem that we have is that the Reapers are expecting us to come at them with a less advanced version of their own technology. That's why they leave the Mass Relays, and little scraps of technology, laying around: to force 'order' on the 'chaos' of organic development. Thus, whenever they show up to do their culling, they know exactly what their opposition is going to throw at them.

What we need to do is come at them with a plan that is so far outside the box that it would make Legion's head explode from the sheer illogic of it all.

My first suggestion, and feel free to shoot this down, is the following:

Magic sword.

[DarkNova50]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DarkNova50 wrote...
What we need to do is come at them with a plan that is so far outside the box that it would make Legion's head explode from the sheer illogic of it all.

My first suggestion, and feel free to shoot this down, is the following:

Magic sword.

It is easy to say "think outside the box" and it is another thing entirely to actually do it.

Well, come Mass Effect 3, Shepard is going to be surrounded by the galaxy's biggest collection of psychopaths, grizzled con artists, and delusional heroes.

If anybody can get the job done, it's them!

[LGTX]

Saphra Deden wrote...

LGTX wrote...

I mean, the way they operated during the previous cycles makes you think that they knew they were vulnerable and potentially defeatable,

Or maybe they just like efficiency? Just because you can overpower your opponent easily doesn't mean you should fight stupid. If you do that then even a weak foe is going to hurt you.

It will definitely be harder and costlier for the Reapers to win this time, but they can still do it, they still have all the advantages.

LGTX wrote...

I know you'll counterargument that it's simply a more economic way of waging genocide,

Well done...

LGTX wrote...

Thus, we only know what the Reaper(s) are capable of against sole systems one at a time. We don't really know how they'll stack up against a galactic fleet.

The galactic fleet doesn't have enough firepower. All the dreadnoughts and all the cruisers and frigates in the galaxy armed with Thanix cannons won't be enough. We might manage to take out a fraction of the Reaper fleet, maybe more than anyone else ever has in the history of the cycle, but it won't win us the war. There are just too many of them.

The mass accelerator that downed the Reaper near Klendagon was just a really a big gun. Nothing fancy about it. Even if you built such a weapon as soon as you fired it the Reapers would be able to trace the shot back to its point of origin and destroy it. That's a hell of a lot of effort for just one kill.

LGTX wrote...

So given the... potential of human genetic paste, the Human Reaper might have had become the most powerful Reaper yet, and a possible ace in the sleeve for the rest of the armada to rely on since they now had to deal with a vigilant galaxy through the front gates.

That's a pretty huge assumption.

Your assumptions are pretty much the same size as mine. I don't see any of my arguments overthrowed.

[jamesp81]

LGTX wrote...

Some spoilers for Mass Effect 1, 2, Retribution, and story spoilers for Mass Effect 3 in this post.

From the lore perspective your points make sense. But I guess that Mass Effect 3's story will be there for the sole reason to prove all of those arguments untrue, or at least try to do so. What I'm betting for is that the Reapers have a seriosuly screwed-over attack plan to work with.

I mean, the way they operated during the previous cycles makes you think that they knew they were vulnerable and potentially defeatable, and that is why they used to essentially spring their forces out at the Citadel, quickly used the element of surprise to clear the station, and gain control to the relays to then isolate and work with each habitable system separately.

That is why they probably spent a crapload of, ahem, manpower to construct the relay networks and ensure the developmental route of every spacefaring species.

I know you'll counterargument that it's simply a more economic way of waging genocide, but there is no denying that it also may be a way to prevent total defeat on the Reapers' side. Not to mention the indoctrination and - as we got from more recent ME3 news - usage of mutilated alien races as their ground forces. 

Thus, we only know what the Reaper(s) are capable of against sole systems one at a time. We don't really know how they'll stack up against a galactic fleet. 

Of course, then comes the Sovereign argument and how it decimated the combined forces of the Citadel and Fifth fleets. But then there's the dead Reaper shell the Illusive Man discovered which was shot down with a mass accelerator so freaking powerful that it dashed a rift in a planet on its way to its target (an element which might see resolution in ME3) , but the target eventually was shot down, and the shot was single. 

I'm thinking that the Reapers are very much defeatable, we just don't... battle them in the right ways. 

Because what did they do once Sovy was out? They started doing run-and-flee abductions to use the most potentially dangerous species to construct a new Reaper, and here's my reasoning behind this (because yeah, many think the whole ME2 main plotline is rendered useless in face of the Reaper story arc): the Reapers are made out of the genetic material of species on which they are based on, right? Now, we also know, once again from more recent sources concerning ME3, that Reapers vary dramatically in size, and, possibly, in power - since we'll have Reaper bossfights which might actually end with given baddies dying, and smaller Reapers getting their asses handed to them by a friggin' space worms. 

So given the... potential of human genetic paste, the Human Reaper might have had become the most powerful Reaper yet, and a possible ace in the sleeve for the rest of the armada to rely on since they now had to deal with a vigilant galaxy through the front gates.

And their general tactics also always seemed elusive to me. I mean, I have seen the argument that indoctrination was a risk-minimizing tool to simply speed up the harvesting process, but the way they overuse it, and the way they try to convince us that they are defeatable with empty threats make it almost seem like they are afraid we might for a second assume otherwise.

And I haven't mentioned the whole backroom stuff Sovy was up to prior to the Battle fo the Citadel, provoking the Rachni wars and spoiling the Geth's reputation and all that. It was intentionally dividing the races and igniting conflicts to use the ageless tactic of finishing off battered enemies. And to stoop even lower, they made observations of the crappiest of details on our mundane day-to-day routine during the control of Grayson's body in Retribution, eager to grasp on our most pathetic weaknesses on all levels of our existential infrastructure. Know your enemy? Economic genocide? Or maybe desperation?

My whole point being: if they are so goddamn powerful and undefeatable, why do they even care about the street layouts of Omega and similar pointless crap? There's too much illogicality surrounding their agenda, methinks. I'm looking forward to how ME3 resolves it all.

And yes, for what it covers, I agree with the post. There definitely has to be at least a supportive new way of taking the Reapers down if that's gonna happen at all.

I 100% agree with you.  Their normal plan includes a sneak attack that decapitates the opposition's leadership, and then isolates it's military forces, leaving them unable to respond in a coherent manner.  To ensure victory, they rely on indoctrinated agents to infiltrate strongly defended outposts and disrupt them before launching their attack.

In fact, I am convinced that indoctrination is their greatest and most dangerous single weapon.  You can't even think about facing them in a conventional battle until you ensure no nasty sabotage is going to hamstring you at an inopportune moment.

Unlike in past harvests, however, this time they will be facing an organized enemy that can coordinate it's military forces.  They've never really had to fight a full scale conventional war.  Now they will.  And while they might be powerful, humans and turians are the acknowledged galactic experts on waging large scale conventional warfare.

Now, the conventional tactics used thus far didn't work very well against Sovereign.  They did manage to kill him, but at huge cost.  However, it was a learning experience.  I have my own ideas on how to reconfigure a fleet to fight others like him much more successfully.  We'll see if they play out in ME3 or not.

[Moiaussi]

It is important to note that most of the 'huge cost' involved Sovereign having Geth fleet support. Sovereign itself didn't formally engage until the end.

It is not a given that Reaper sheilding has no limits. If Sovereign was truely 'invulnerable', the Reapers wouldn't have needed the Geth fleet at all.

[I AM KROGAAANNN]

Submit now, humans! You cannot win this fight! You will fight in vain, as have all other civilizations before. 

Modifié par I AM KROGAAANNN, 25 mai 2011 - 03:37 .

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

It is not a given that Reaper sheilding has no limits. If Sovereign was truely 'invulnerable', the Reapers wouldn't have needed the Geth fleet at all.

Nobody ever said they were invulnerable. The next time they'll have a support fleet too and that fleet will be other Reapers. If they can each blast apart ships as quickly as Sovereign could (and keep in mind Sovereign was sitting still, completely immobile, then they will make short work of any fleet.

The entire fight was at point blank range, in a nebula (which forced point blank), with the majority of DN's already taken out of the fight. Also the Citadel fleet was not the majority of Council forces as they didn't take the threat seriously.

Also there has been two years to refit ships to newer technology, and we know from how easily the Normandy was refitted that said upgrades are quick and easy.

I am not saying that it will be easy and it will still need coordination and a counter to indoctrination, but it isn't hopeless either.

I am also convinced that Gillian Grayson will be part of the 'final solution', simply because she is such an ongoing mcguffin in the books. It is really hard to believe they aren't going somewhere with that.

[Someone With Mass]

They have to set up a base somewhere if they want to perform experiments on the different species or turn them into milkshakes.

Hit and run tactics would probably work in our favor there, instead of fighting them head on.

[Dean_the_Young]

We've had this discussion in private, but at the heart of it I think there's going to be one particular element that's more important than all others: that the Reapers are not as numerous as many assume. I doubt we'll be facing millions. I doubt we'll even face tens of thousands. I'm skeptical on even a few thousand.

That, at the heart of it, the Reapers won't have the numeric freedom and flexibility people assume they'll have, and have magnitudes less than the worst-case fears.