1062 réponses à ce sujet

[Alexein]

sorry double post

Modifié par Alexein, 02 avril 2011 - 02:21 .

[Getorex]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Getorex wrote...

But I don't analyze it that closely because...the game is fun and clever and is chock full of hot alien chicks. What more could one want? That's enough for anyone really.

If my argument is goofy please explain why. So far what you've written has supported what I said. So thanks for the support.

The argument is goofy because it assumes some realty to the game universe that simply doesn't hold. There are all kinds of "problems" with the universe of ME if you look just beneath the skin. The whole Reaper thing is just one of them so why take that out and REQUIRE that it be held to some strict rule set that must be obeyed?

This is a game written by EA/Bioware. They will provide some form of resolution that doesn't mean come down to "everyone dies, the end".

I supported your argument in a way to illustrate merely ONE of many logical/consistency holes in the story. But are you really that hung up on them? How about this one: aliens mixing and matching as if they are all biologically compatible and sexually attracted to each other? C'mon! No way in this or any other universe. Horses and sheeps don't dig each other, cannot mate, aren't remotely interested. Chimps and crocks have no interest in each other (except for the latter being interested in the former as FOOD) nor any way to "get together". You could even pretend a chimp and a crock with human-level intelligence (or higher) and they STILL would be so alien to each other that they would never mate, never kiss, never hump, etc. Can't happen. Ever.

Simple biology, evolution, etc. You COULD get all bent out of shape on that aspect of the game but then...why are you playing it then! Sure, virtually NOTHING in the game CAN actually happen. nor will ever happen but that isn't the point. The game is fun, the aliens chicks are (mostly) human-like hot, there are interesting interactions, planets, etc.

Don't pick the Reapers out of the huge host of issues that COULD be picked out and picked apart. You speculate on how it MUST be as if the game is following logic in a mathematical way. It started off without any connection to any mathematical logic so don't try for enforce it in this one spot.

THAT is why the whole argument is goofy.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Your "facts" are guesswork at best.

Which ones? The way space combat works? Is the codex just guessing when it tells us how ships in space do battle?

Am I merely guessing when I say that Reapers can do this as well, even though they are ships with capabilities even greater than our own?

Am I guessing when I say it is possible for them to monitor the relay using quantum entanglement devices when we have seen such technology employed by the Reapers man times? They were even able to replicate themselves once injected into Grayson!

Yes, all of that is guesswork.  You're trying to apply what you know and apply it to the unknown - which is the future.  I can what-if your "facts" to death.

One what if - what if we find a weapon that can destroy the Reapers?  You can say it's unlikely, but you can't prove it's not possible.  Because we're talking about the future.  Speculation.

[Getorex]

Akizora wrote...

Final Mission: Shepard must travel to Mars and find a doomsday weapon to Deus Ex Machina himself to victory with a virus...So he wins.

Funny you should write that...Deus Ex 3 is coming out soon! Yeehoo! KICK@SS game series itself.

[himmelgeher]

Nyoka wrote...

@himmelgeher, Yes. A sacrifice for the final victory.

If the Reapers attacked Palaven, we would blow up Palaven. But they're coming here.

Yes, but Dresden was completly different. We were killing people who were absolutly our enemies. It may have been brutal, but war is just as much psychologically damaging your opponent as wracking up the highest body count. Without Earth, there will be too few humans left to sustain a viable population on a galactic scale. Humanity would be gone in a few hundred years. And who's to say that they're not attacking Palaven. The more logical strategy would be to split up their forces and attack multiple homeworld's at once, dividing the forces of the galaxy and distracting them. There won't be any chance for Gondor to call for aide because nobody's there to give it.

[himmelgeher]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Independence Day was an awful movie.

It's a great movie and you are an awful person if you dislike it. It's exactly what summer blockbuster should be.


...but that's another thread, another debate.

[Alexein]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Alexein wrote...

Doesn't really matter what the OP thinks, if bioware is going to do it, then thats how the game will play out.
Video games are made by people, the people making ME3 in this case is bioware, and they decide what will happen.

Okay, kid, since you keep running your mouth I will cave in and explain to you.

I am sure we will in ME3. I am sure because it is a video game and Bioware is to gutless to make a game where you lose. However when I talk about Mass Effect and its lore, when I debate the viability of choices made by Shepard, I try to do it from an "in-universe" perspective. It is in some sense, roleplaying. I look at the information available to the characters, I ignore the fact that the universe is fictional, and try to determine what is most likely to happen. What is most logical.

In this case a defeat the hands/tentacles of the Reapers is most likely. There is almost no chance for victory unless you can catch all the Reapers in a relay explosion. However that tactic is unlikely to succeed because the Reapers already aware of it and can prepare themselves in chase you should try it.

Without it you have no way to defeat the Reaper fleets. None, what-so-ever.

The "miracle" I speak of is the McGuffin that I am sure Bioware will introduce in ME3 to make it possible to win the game.

So if bioware will allow us to win, what's the problem?

Modifié par Alexein, 02 avril 2011 - 02:30 .

[himmelgeher]

Nyoka wrote...

himmelgeher wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

@himmelgeher, Yes. A sacrifice for the final victory.

If the Reapers attacked Palaven, we would blow up Palaven. But they're coming here.

Yes, but Dresden was completly different. We were killing people who were absolutly our enemies. It may have been brutal, but war is just as much psychologically damaging your opponent as wracking up the highest body count. Without Earth, there will be too few humans left to sustain a viable population on a galactic scale. Humanity would be gone in a few hundred years. And who's to say that they're not attacking Palaven. The more logical strategy would be to split up their forces and attack multiple homeworld's at once, dividing the forces of the galaxy and distracting them. There won't be any chance for Gondor to call for aide because nobody's there to give it.

Okay, so Coventry. Churchill didn't evacuate the town. Just as we won't evacuate earth.

Well, if they are also going to Palaven, we blow up Palaven, too. No problem!

Well, as long as we take them out with us.

[himmelgeher]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Alexein wrote...

Doesn't really matter what the OP thinks, if bioware is going to do it, then thats how the game will play out.
Video games are made by people, the people making ME3 in this case is bioware, and they decide what will happen.

Okay, kid, since you keep running your mouth I will cave in and explain to you.

I am sure we will in ME3. I am sure because it is a video game and Bioware is to gutless to make a game where you lose. However when I talk about Mass Effect and its lore, when I debate the viability of choices made by Shepard, I try to do it from an "in-universe" perspective. It is in some sense, roleplaying. I look at the information available to the characters, I ignore the fact that the universe is fictional, and try to determine what is most likely to happen. What is most logical.

In this case a defeat the hands/tentacles of the Reapers is most likely. There is almost no chance for victory unless you can catch all the Reapers in a relay explosion. However that tactic is unlikely to succeed because the Reapers already aware of it and can prepare themselves in chase you should try it.

Without it you have no way to defeat the Reaper fleets. None, what-so-ever.

The "miracle" I speak of is the Deus Ex Machina that I am sure Bioware will introduce in ME3 to make it possible to win the game.

fix'd

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Alexein wrote...

Doesn't really matter what the OP thinks, if bioware is going to do it, then thats how the game will play out.
Video games are made by people, the people making ME3 in this case is bioware, and they decide what will happen.

Okay, kid, since you keep running your mouth I will cave in and explain to you.

I am sure we will in ME3. I am sure because it is a video game and Bioware is to gutless to make a game where you lose. However when I talk about Mass Effect and its lore, when I debate the viability of choices made by Shepard, I try to do it from an "in-universe" perspective. It is in some sense, roleplaying. I look at the information available to the characters, I ignore the fact that the universe is fictional, and try to determine what is most likely to happen. What is most logical.

In this case a defeat the hands/tentacles of the Reapers is most likely. There is almost no chance for victory unless you can catch all the Reapers in a relay explosion. However that tactic is unlikely to succeed because the Reapers already aware of it and can prepare themselves in chase you should try it.

Without it you have no way to defeat the Reaper fleets. None, what-so-ever.

The "miracle" I speak of is the McGuffin that I am sure Bioware will introduce in ME3 to make it possible to win the game.

There's ways to do proper roleplaying and it involves something at least like pen and paper roleplaying, where there's rules set in stone about all the factors involved and there's someone (not you) who doesn't have a stake in the debate to referee.  This place is a ****** poor format for this idea.

[Getorex]

I would say it is even simpler than "I can 'what if' your statements to death" on why a weapon can be found to defeat the reapers, etc. It is not because it is "the future". It is solely and simply: this is a sci-fi game with heavy fantasy seasonings. The writers can POOF anything they like into the story and make it happen.

Ta-da. Really.

As for the other person who stated they wouldn't buy the game unless he could be assured of a win against the Reapers in ME3...WTF? Really? How about...wait and see how it resolves? Do you read the last page or two of any novel you START reading to make sure you like the ending before you really start reading it?

I used to do that when I was something like 12, 13, or so. Kinda got past that as I matured. I'll buy it and play it and see how it goes. I COULD be disappointed or I may be pleased. I guess I'll see.

[100k]

Getorex wrote...

This entire argument is...goofy.

If I were to pick apart the logic underlying the game and its universe, I could quite easily - it is sci-fi and NOT of the hard sci-fi variety. It is not sci-fi written by a physicist or cosmologist, etc. It has holes in it if you look too close. One of the holes is a race of uber-destroyers who have been doing it time after time after time for millions, even billions of years. The fact that they've pulled it off so many times without a hiccup, the fact that they are so far advanced above any and all they face, would mean they could not be beaten (or someone over the last few billion years would have pulled it off!)

But I don't analyze it that closely because...the game is fun and clever and is chock full of hot alien chicks. What more could one want? That's enough for anyone really.

There IS a suspicion in my mind, given that the Reapers are some form of machine/biology amalgam, that a final "fix" will be in the form of some software virus. Hope not but I see that someone else voiced that hypothesis too. I still say, given the game logic, that it would be more reasonable to do what apparently NO one has done before (because it is so drastic): destroy/disable the mass relays. They are absolutely essential for Reaper invasions and as a means of taking advantage of EVERY stellar civilization's dependence upon this "found tech". ALL previous advanced galactic civs found, used, became dependent upon the already extant relays. That is the Reaper plan/trap. Undo the trap, undo their ability to be naughty.

Agreed. However, it is important to note two things about a reaper invasion through the millions of years they've existed. 

1. Its not at all unreasonable to assume that the reapers were able to wipe out all life without a hiccup. Keep in mind that they kept on destroying all of their predecessors technology. Over the course of 50,000 years, it would be relatively easy to repeat the same patterns of destruction over and over, because no species would be aware, let alone prepared for the reapers. We are seeing a lot of this in ME1 and 2. HOWEVER, eventually, probably three or four galactic generations before the protheans, some species probably got suspicious of their isolated state and started investigating the origins of their predecessors. This would lead the species to become aware that "something" was habitually cleansing the galaxy. This would allow the species to realize that, if they failed in taking out the reapers (which they all did), that they could at least leave a beacon of information behind for a future galactic civilization (50,000 years being a relatively short amount of time from the fall of one species, to the rise of another).

The reapers probably started this trend of leaving behind information, as we've seen several reaper technological objects left around the galaxy as an indirect way to weaken unprepared species (see Arrival, as Rho is basically the perfect example of a reaper land mine).  Younger species could get the idea that if reapers could leave ancient technology to weaken them indirectly (like husk making devices), then they could create similar devices to help their inevitable successors, until the cycle of destruction could be broken.

Anyways, so this pattern of destruction would likely continue until one day, the protheans have enough information built up from hundreds of races predating them, to leave behind pyramid hubs, orb relics, their own mass relays, and even the citadel. 

2. We know that the reapers faced some resistance, as evidence by their few and far between, but never the less present corpses scattered around the galaxy. It takes hundreds of years for the reapers to wipe out a galactic civilization, and that would probably be because, thanks to the relics above, eventually species would get the gist of what was going on and be able to rebel. The klindigon mass accelerator weapon is a shining example of this. Some race, long before even the protheans existed, knew about the reapers, and were able to take their last kill shot before being erased forever. 

Anyways, its interesting to speculate on how we'll take out the reapers. 

[Alexein]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Alexein wrote...

So if bioware will allow us to win, what's the problem?

*whoosh!*

That was the point of my post flying above your head at about 32,000 feet.

I'm sorry if i offended you in anyway. I'm just curious as to why the topic became so heated. I understand you're upset, but please understand i didn't mean to hurt or offend you in anyway.

Modifié par Alexein, 02 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[Getorex]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Independence Day was an awful movie.

It's a great movie and you are an awful person if you dislike it. It's exactly what summer blockbuster should be.


...but that's another thread, another debate.

Ah...another "fact" is it?

I f*cking HATED that stoopid movie. Horrible, ridiculous, stoopid. Why must a summer blockbuster be absolutely simple-minded and retarded? Why can't it aim higher? Well, it COULD if the freakin writers and directors would aim higher than Jr High level but there you go.

And talk about HUGE logical plot hole...aliens relying on human satellites to time their invasion (because they can't whip up a few nanosats on their own? They only traversed the freakin galaxy to get here, are CLEARLY far far FAR in advance of humanity and yet still get defeated...kinda Reaper-ish wouldn't you say?)....and that's just the beginning.

[himmelgeher]

Nyoka wrote...

But the reapers don't see the turians as a threat. They fear humans because they know Shepard. They figure they should focus on destroying humans, and the rest will be easy enough. I bet they won't split their forces. They will attack earth with everything they've got. That makes them the illusion that they, together, are invulnerable.

I think the giant red solution is a real possibility. It can be done. And I don't think the codex says the Reapers can survive inside a star.

Well, all I'm saying is that it's foolish for them to concentrate all of their firepower on one place. It makes more sense to attack multiple homeworlds because that means that the reapers will only have to deal with that species' armada instead of the armada of every species at the same time.

[himmelgeher]

Getorex wrote...
Ah...another "fact" is it?

I f*cking HATED that stoopid movie. Horrible, ridiculous, stoopid. Why must a summer blockbuster be absolutely simple-minded and retarded? Why can't it aim higher? Well, it COULD if the freakin writers and directors would aim higher than Jr High level but there you go.

And talk about HUGE logical plot hole...aliens relying on human satellites to time their invasion (because they can't whip up a few nanosats on their own? They only traversed the freakin galaxy to get here, are CLEARLY far far FAR in advance of humanity and yet still get defeated...kinda Reaper-ish wouldn't you say?)....and that's just the beginning.

Explanation.