1062 réponses à ce sujet

[AntenDS]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Right, the main difference being that the room in space is infinite in size.

Actually it could and it did. I'm speaking of when the Collectors attacked the ship for a second time. In the first encounter the Normandy didn't have the chance to flee.

Space isn't infinite in size since the you universe is ever expanding that is splitting hairs though.  My point is you can chase someone in space unless your ship is hindered.

Second point you can turn tail and run but it isn't a 100% certianty that you will get away.  If the runner is faster or their drives aren't down then then they have a chance to get away.  But seriously that entry is over exstimating propability.  Some Reapers may get away but not all.  The one thing they have is we don't know where they will be stoping to patch themselves up for another go.  But the more time they spend the more time Shep and Co will have to preparr.

[Leonia]

I really don't think the Reapers are foolish enough to send their entire fleet to one system/planet all at once. Even if one could destroy the Charon relay, you're likely only cutting off a portion of their invasion fleet.

If I were a Reaper, I'd be targetting all the heavily populated homeworlds upon entering the galaxy. This gives them a foothold and gains them some indoctrinated troops to send out to the other worlds. It's also a high-risk situation to go after the toughest, most defended targets first but since nobody in the galaxy believes they are coming (aside from Shepard and a select few) they're probably still banking heavily on the element of surprise.

It doesn't seem logical for them to send their entire force after Earth, regardless of their hatred for Shepard and humanity (they are machines without emotions after all). We don't even know for sure that they will go after Earth first.

I agree, it seems like a hopeless fight at this point and we haven't been given enough information to start preparing a proper defense but hopefully we'll find something early on in ME3 that will help us out. Maybe we'll come to the conclusion that we don't have to defeat the Reapers, maybe there is some plot-twist headed our way that involves working with the Reapers to fight a worse foe. I have no idea but as it is now yes, it is impossible to take on the Reaper fleet with what we know so far.

Modifié par leonia42, 02 avril 2011 - 04:02 .

[Barhador]

You guys need to understand that 'blowing up' the Sun isn't going to work. If the Sun went Supernova, we would be able to see it after 8 minutes, yet the matter blast wouldn't reach Earth for many, many hours. No explosion travels at the speed of light. Not even from Supernovae.

So yeah, after 8 minutes the Reapers would just say "hey look, humans are doing the job for us" and toggle FTL to outrun the explosion.

[PurePareidolia]

I can't help but think this wouldn't be an issue if ME2's plot had actually accomplished what a second act is supposed to do and given us some sort of way to defeat them.

[AntenDS]

Saphra Deden wrote...
True the Reapers can't flee if they are hindered, but how are you going to hinder them? They can take a lot more punishment than we can. Sure, maybe you'll surprise one (somehow?) or two or a dozen, but hundreds? The same trick won't work forever.

Get all the intel you can and the top techicains and scientists to make mini Mass Relays like in the Citadel to strap onto battle raady ships.  Then use those as rail guns.  Make sure you don't miss and you have a dead reaper or a holy reaper.

[MrSaberTooth]

we have randomness and probably the new geth on our side.

[Pwener2313]

This is bad idea #344975839257905786050 in the Mass Effect Forums.

[Devbo22]

We'll just have vanguard Shepard charge from one reaper to the next turning them all into swiss cheese.

[Gabey5]

dont they have like 10,000 ships? I have a feeling even if we win, we will still lose as half the galaxy will be in flames

[M-Sinistrari]

Since I need to take a break from essay writing, might as well join in on the nitpickery.

Going from the gist of the OP's posts, there's the presumption that because the Reapers are so mindbogglingly advanced, there's no way to win in the conventional tech vs tech manner. I'll concede some bits to this since it did take a lot just to down Sovereign.

However even with the little foreshadowing tidbits of dark matter having some importance down the road and such, the tangent of adaptability's been mostly if not completely been ignored.

To dig up a comparison, let's look at World War Z. Yeah, it's zombies but let's look at the situation posed in book.

Enemy does not follow conventionality. Can only be destroyed in a narrow manner, doesn't need sleep, doesn't need food in quite the same way we do, don't breathe, can't feel fear, and don't need any form of a chain of communication/leadership. Most of our current day weapons do nothing against them. For each one of us they kill, that one rises up and becomes the enemy.

Global society is devastated. Fuel's scarce, food's even more scarce. Modern advances like reliable clean water and electricity's even a rarity in the better off areas. Everywhere's been reduced to scavenging and most don't have basic survival skills. Malnutrition's running rampant and diseases either eradicated by vaccination or been made rare are back in full force. There's little to no form of societal co-operation outside of survivor enclaves. Psychologically people are so convinced there's no hope that they're dying in their sleep.

At the worst in book, it's 200 million zombies vs a scattered scant few million at best living.

Don't know about anyone else but that sort of odds sound pretty damn impossible even with a miracle to just break even much less win.

But at the worst of times, people pulled together. They adjusted, adapted, and pressed on to eventually gaining a foothold that grew into where rebuilding and restructuring was more of an option. In the end, the world's not the same as it was before, but the living are still going on.

To throw this into a Mass Effect perspective, it's going to require a lot of adapting on the part of the galaxy especially since all current tech's been based on Reaper tech. Equally it's not going to be a quick 1-2-3 over deal. Look at the First Contact war, the humans fleet organization was radically different than what the Turians had and was able to beat them back until the Council stepped in.

It's already been stated in game that the other races are beefing up their defense forces which while it's a good sign, there's going to be more needed. Tech advances will continue as the battle goes on and more is learned about Reaper tactics and such. Galactic organization will need to adjust and adapt. As Vigil said, the Protheans reaping took centuries and that's with them having the Citadel assault advantage. I can see this fight with the Reapers taking long as well with successes and failures on both sides with the Council side eventually winning.

Things might not be the same as they are now in the end, but it's still a victory.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

We also don't know what the Reapers consider "acceptable losses." Will they fight to the last machine? Or, upon losing a third of their force, will they panic and run off? If the Reapers wipe out 60% of all organic life. but lose 30% of their population... organic life will recover more quickly, while they will need several hundred thousand years to swell their numbers to previous levels.

Hell, if they wipe out 100% of advanced organic life, and we ding 40% of them, it's still a victory of some sort, because again... the next cycle, sentient organics will have a smaller threat, and they're pretty much bound to get lucky again before the reapers regain total strength.

Especially if we leave plenty of notes and clues. Leaving notes and clues is our best backup plan.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 02 avril 2011 - 04:52 .

[M-Sinistrari]

Wow, way to cherry pick there...

Saphra Deden wrote...

All I really assume is that the Reapers are as smart as we are, if not smarter. Thus any clever tactics we can think of they can think of.

Tactics is just one thing off the top of my head.  We really have no way of knowing if the Reapers are smarter than us but there is the fact that they specifically charge in for reaping at a select spot in the galaxy's development which leads me to believe they only developed so far and simply can't think beyond what they've developed.  If such things can feel something like fear, it's that another civilization develops outside of thier tech establishing.

Saphra Deden wrote...
Uplifting speeches won't save humanity.

Not saying it was only uplifting speeches.  The tangible seeing that the current established way of development and fighting's not completely effective will motivate the galaxy into having to look into new ways of 'evolving'.  The bartender on Ilium had already stated that the current stagnation was a problem and the only resolution was changing the order of things.

Saphra Deden wrote...
How do you see the Council winning? We need specifics here.

Okay, I'll toss you a few things you can go be negative nelly on.

Currently each of the Council races are pretty much insular outside of the Council essentially acting as elected referees.  That'll need to change obviously to something more unified.  To look at the tech side of things, only the Normandy's an example of a joint species effort integrating Turian and Human tech.  So far it's proven better in performance and efficiency than a standard ship of it's class from either fleet.

Now just imagine a ship designed with the integrated tech from each of the main galaxy races, and now imagine a fleet of them.  Might not be able to single shot defeat a Reaper, but could definitely do some heavy damage.

Organizing things so everything's more of a joint effort rather than Alliance handles X and Asari handle Y and so on will build an adaptable network so if one part's damaged or downed, it's not completely trashed.

Granted there'll be some wanting to be sticks in the mud and keep insular, but the majority will adapt since everyone even the geth do rather like avoiding that permanent death thing.

[M-Sinistrari]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well they are millions, perhaps billions, of years older than us and they are more technologically advanced. I think there is a good chance they are wiser for it too. They've had the time to answer all questions and know all things.

And the Germans were more advanced than the Russians but who ended up holding Stalingrad?  You can't have the argument of presuming just because older has to equal wiser.  Age is more than capable of making stupid decisions same as younger.  From the talks with Sovereign and Harbinger, the Reapers come across pretty confident to the point of over confident and that does breed lethal mistakes.  Just look at General Custer for what happens with over confidence.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well that seems to be all you're offering. When send a crack batarian team to blow up the Charon relay you can be the one to deliver the speech to them at the start.

Sorry that all you're seeing is uplifting speeches.  I'm seeing how people will react when faced with a certain death and what they'll do to avoid that death.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Which helps us how? All the unity in the galaxy won't kill the Reapers.

Unity in the aspect of singing along while holding hands, no.  But unity in acting as one force in a fight for survival, sharing all resources and developments...now that's something more imposing altogether.

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Normandy isn't going to be taking down any Reapers.

You don't understand. Working together and integrating our tech isn't going magically close the gap between us and the Reapers. Even if it does, even if we manage to reach a point at which one of our dreadnoughts is enough to take down one Reaper, that won't be enough. There will still be more Reapers than there are dreadnoughts and they will still be able to engage in hit and run tactics on our population centers.

Eventually the fleets may find themselves with nothing left to defend!

You're presuming that technology's going to remain insular as well as advancements not continuing on during the war.  Military tech's long been known to advance in leaps and bounds during wartime.  You're also presuming everyone's fleet construction bases are limited rather than adjusting to a wartime production.  Yeah, while a dreadnought's a pretty imposing ship, you're presuming that's going to be the limit of ship development.  It's completely feasible for ship development to go towards a model of smaller ships with greater maneuverability that have a combined firepower equal to or greater than a dreadnought.

Linear thinking's what the Reapers are used to and expecting, diverting to a more diverse mode will be a weakness.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Hell, if they wipe out 100% of advanced organic life, and we ding 40% of them, it's still a victory of some sort, because again... the next cycle...

Who cares about the next cycle? If there is another cycle it means we failed and we're dead or one of them now.

I'm saying that THEY might. The Reapers may care, and base their tactics on what they consider acceptable losses. It could be that they don't care about their own losses at all, in which case we'll have to defeat all of them, which is a much taller order. If they flee after taking significant losses, the odds shift a bit.

[M-Sinistrari]

Saphra Deden wrote...

 Useless speculation.

Reading over the thread, we're all indulging in useless speculation.  Nothing anyone's going to say is going to get so much as a 'you might have a point' out of you.  In the end, the actuality is Bioware's going to have an option for the Reapers to be defeated and as usual it's going to be loved by some and hated by some same as every other thing they've done in the series. 

As much as I've enjoyed this discussion, it's much like chewing gum.  The flavour's gone out and now it's time to go spit.

[Abispa]

You know, looking at the designs of the Reaper that Joker had at the end of ME2, it's pretty obvious to me that the Reapers' defenses are built to battle huge capital warships, but a squadron of small, one man fighters should make it passed those defenses. Apparently, the Reapers don't consider one man fighters to be much of a threat.

What good would a small fighter do against such monstrous ships?

Well, down at the end of this long trench is an exhaust port...

Modifié par Abispa, 02 avril 2011 - 06:25 .

[Dave666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

M-Sinistrari wrote...

Reading over the thread, we're all indulging in useless speculation.

Yeah, all of you are, but not me. I'm looking at facts and drawing a conclusion.

Fact: Its a story written by Bioware.

Fact: Fans typically like happy endings or at least don't like endings where all life in the galaxy dies and playing was pointless.

Fact: Bioware most certainly knows this.

Conclusion:  The Reapers can be defeated because the writers say so.

Funny how that works...

Modifié par Dave666, 03 avril 2011 - 08:27 .