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Act 1 is better with Carver.


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#26
Rifneno

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wulfsturm wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Is him being a dick a bad thing? I mean, he's intentionally a rival, if you got along just fine it would have been a pretty poor rivalry.


Depends on who you are I supose. If he was my brother in real life, I would have clocked him one a long time ago.


Yeah, I was very disappointed you can never fight him.  I don't mean kill him, I just mean fight him.  Hawke should've been the chance to beat him down when choosing the mage-sided ending.  Instead, the fact he joins the templars ends up being completely meaningless.

#27
LadyBri

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After playing with Grey Warden Carver, he is more tolerable. However, I still enjoy Bethany more. She may be sweet, but I would hardly say that's boring. I enjoy the "Birthright" quest so much more with her, as she really seems devoted to Mama Hawke which is endearing and makes the quest much more fulfilling.

Plus, it's great to hear the banter with Bethany - especially when Isabela teases her and Varric calls her sunshine. Angsty and whiny might be more interesting and dynamic, but Bethany is more valuable as a family member. Hawke goes through a lot of tough stuff, so I think it makes my Hawke better to have people like Bethany and Mama Hawke in his/her corner than always having to fight and argue with bratty, permanently dissatisfied Carver.

#28
Aggie Punbot

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I love Carver and I agree with the original poster 100%. It's not that I dislike Bethany, I just like the Carver/Hawke dynamic a little bit more.

#29
GodWood

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Carver is a bajillion times better than Bethany.

#30
Cavalier753

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^that guy didn't really make much of an argument. Ha. But I think bethany is the superior sibling because she is everything you could possibly want in a sister. Kind, light-hearted, dosent take out her frustrations on others, supportive. Whereas carver just HAD to whine and biatch about every little thing you did that he didn't agree with. Like someone else already said. Bethany = super sibling. Carver = whiny ass we usually get stuck with.

#31
Eudaemonium

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On my first playthrough (AngryMage!Hawke) I really didn't care much for him. However, on my latest playthrough (Snarky Mage!Hawke) I'm using him more and being nicer to him in general and I've come to really appreciate his character. Sure, he still whines at you, but that's just because he's a rival and feels like he lives in your shadow. I'm trying to get him to Friendship and send him to the Wardens this time. Last time he was a Rival Templar.

#32
TobiTobsen

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Hooray for Bethany!

If I want my family members to nag at me, I'll go back to RL. I don't need Carver for that.

But i have to admit the whole "It's your fault that Bethany is dead" conversation was awesome. Great voice acting. Really wanted to punch that little ****** for that.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 02 avril 2011 - 10:08 .


#33
Eudaemonium

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TobiTobsen wrote...

But i have to admit the whole "It's your fault that Bethany is dead" conversation was awesome. Great voice acting. Really wanted to punch that little ****** for that.


I agreed with him on my latest game. He was like "What?" and stared in disbelief. It was priceless. I then gave him a lecture about how I'd go back in time and chnage it if I could but I couldn't, so we needed to make the best of things. It was pretty touching.

#34
Chuvvy

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I like Carver, allot. The interactions between him and sarcastic Hawke are awesome.

#35
Rifneno

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TobiTobsen wrote...

Hooray for Bethany!

If I want my family members to nag at me, I'll go back to RL. I don't need Carver for that.

But i have to admit the whole "It's your fault that Bethany is dead" conversation was awesome. Great voice acting. Really wanted to punch that little ****** for that.


Carver:  It's your fault Bethany is dead!
Hawke:  I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions!  *stiff punch*

WTB.

#36
GodWood

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QuintusVolcae wrote...
But I think bethany is the superior sibling because she is everything you could possibly want in a sister. Kind, light-hearted, dosent take out her frustrations on others, supportive.

All of which are traits I find insanely boring in a companion.
I want drama, conflict and lolz (Carver) not sweetness, chastity and bunnies (Bethany).

#37
MassStorm

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No it is not, Carver is a douchebag

#38
MICHELLE7

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Personality wise I wasn't too fond of Carver as a person but he behaved like you would expect a brother with sibling rivalry to behave so I also thought that he was a much better choice than Bethany in the first act. I agree that Bethany was rather dull.

I thought one of the funniest dialogues came from Carver, Fenris, and Anders when they were discussing Carvers dog tattoo...you didn't really get anything funny from Bethany. I mean Merrill was sweet too but some of her interactions were hilarious...not so with Beth...I like Beth...just found her boring.

#39
Icy Magebane

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Bethany is selfish. I noticed how she excused a woman becoming an abomination because she got backed into a corner... as if there's ever an excuse for allowing yourself to be corrupted by a demon (Wayward Son quest btw). It's annoying even having her around, because you constantly feel pressure to help mages even though you think they should be contained and monitored for the good of humanity. At least, that's how I felt.

If it's just about personality... I just don't like her that much. Yes, she's nice and sweet, and I can't help but want to protect her, but that's lame. I would rather have it out with Carver until one of us says something we shouldn't have. Peace is boring... especially when you're holding your tongue because you don't want to upset your delicate apostate sister. Bah. Too bad I'd have to play a mage to see Carver alive again. That won't be happening anytime soon.

#40
highcastle

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I adore Carver. His relationship with Hawke is realistic and caustic. It's classic sibling rivalry tempered with the grief over losing Bethany and jealousy he's the only one of his parents' kids not to inherit magic. To put it in modern perspective, he'd be the only son of a massively talented sports player or artist not to have a lick of that talent, watching as his siblings are called prodigies. Much of his resentment is completely understandable if put in the right perspective. I love putting him into the Wardens and watching him overcome this, too.

While I think it would have been interesting to Malcolm Hawke or to keep both siblings alive, I don't think BioWare "screwed up" the family dynamics at all. Carver's attitudes towards his sibling are completely understandable. Leandra plays the protective and grieving mother/widow very well. I haven't made it past the prologue with a non-mage Hawke yet, so I can't speak to Bethany's behavior. But the family feels like a functioning, organic unit. Their bonds don't come across as false at all. And I understand why one sibling died no matter what, and part of it's replay value. The other is gameplay balance.

#41
da0Xeffect2

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I prefer Carver's character. He doesn't like us but he respects us. His first banter with Aveline summed it up for me.

#42
Urazz

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quote]Quill74Pen wrote...

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]Foolsfolly wrote...


[quote]If some one had to die in the prologue then they could have let us meet Hawke's Dad and have him make a last stand so his family could escape.[/quote]

I like this idea. Then you would have had both siblings which would have divided Hawke in the Mage/Templar argument and you'd still have the BioWare redshirt death at the beginning. Plus, we'd have at least seen Daddy Hawke and he would have died so we're not overshadowed by him.

All win.[/quote]

I also approve. And add that if we still lost a sibling at the end of Act I, determined by character class while keeping the other around as a party member it would have made things a lot more interesting. If Bethany or Carver died in the deep roads having your mother/surviving sibling blaming you would have been a real gut punch instead of just leaving some of us rolling our eyes.

What if  Bethany had been taken to the Circle while we took Carver on the expedition? Or if Carver decided to become a Templar to protect Bethany while both were left at home? There could be some really interesting family interactions there.
[/quote]

I, too, agree with the sentiments expressed in the quoted material above. DA2 is a good game in its own right, but I really do think the writers at Bioware screwed up the family dynamic. *shrug* Perhaps there will be some DLC that enables more family interaction. Or perhaps the writers will take our comments into consideration when planning DA3.

Quill74Pen

[/quote]
I don't think they screwed it up but they could've done better with it.  I.E. actually have both siblings survive to add extra dynamics to the family so we can see stuff like one sibling's reaction to the other's death/becoming a Grey Warden or becoming a Circle Mage or Templar.

[quote]Icy Magebane wrote...

Bethany is selfish. I noticed how she excused a woman becoming an abomination because she got backed into a corner... as if there's ever an excuse for allowing yourself to be corrupted by a demon (Wayward Son quest btw). It's annoying even having her around, because you constantly feel pressure to help mages even though you think they should be contained and monitored for the good of humanity. At least, that's how I felt.

If it's just about personality... I just don't like her that much. Yes, she's nice and sweet, and I can't help but want to protect her, but that's lame. I would rather have it out with Carver until one of us says something we shouldn't have. Peace is boring... especially when you're holding your tongue because you don't want to upset your delicate apostate sister. Bah. Too bad I'd have to play a mage to see Carver alive again. That won't be happening anytime soon.[/quote]
Wow, insensitive much?  That 'woman' that turned into an abomination was pretty much a normal girl and was scared out of her mind from the slavers that were going to cut off her hands.  She had no training so getting taken over by a demon in that situation is understandable.  If anything it does show that mages do need to be trained so they will be less vulnerable to becoming abominations.

Modifié par Urazz, 02 avril 2011 - 01:18 .


#43
_purifico_

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wulfsturm wrote...

I thought Carver was a dick, personally.


Carver IS a dick, that's true. But what OP is saying that though Carver is an **** he is a great character.

I have the same oppinion about Merrill. I don't like her as a person, but as a character she's excelent

#44
_Aine_

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Like him or hate him, Carver does sibling rivalry right, in my opinion. And when you snark back at his obtuseness, he actually seems to get along BETTER with you. lol I don't know, when I could totally make fun of him after he said something publicly just dickish, his reactions were great. I ended up liking having him around, simply because he WAS such an ass. But he wasn't just bitter, it had feeling in it, made it pretty realistic to me because it wasn't just one dimensional. "My brother has a point. It's on his head but...." won the day for me with Carver :P

#45
Lithuasil

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I already said this in a similar discussion with Foolsfolly - Imho, going along with both the theme of having the companions as friends, rather then pokemon, and having a strong family theme, what they could have done (if they planned for this from the start) is this -

Give us both Siblings as the only permanently available companions, and everyone else as temporary companions, that become available, depending on what mission is currently active - So that you only take people to missions that have actual business being on them.
I have a hard time seeing, say, Fenris or Aveline breaking into the gallows to spy on the templars. Varric and Isabella are much more likely to agree going on some mercenary mission like blackpowder promise etc.
This would've given the opportunity to flesh the siblings (one of whom we might still loose maybe) out a lot better (also, giving them access to all trees and specs the pc has access to), and it would have been a lot easier to involve the companions on quests, because you can actually predict, where they'll be.

#46
Rifneno

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Lithuasil wrote...

I already said this in a similar discussion with Foolsfolly - Imho, going along with both the theme of having the companions as friends, rather then pokemon, and having a strong family theme, what they could have done (if they planned for this from the start) is this -

Give us both Siblings as the only permanently available companions, and everyone else as temporary companions, that become available, depending on what mission is currently active - So that you only take people to missions that have actual business being on them.
I have a hard time seeing, say, Fenris or Aveline breaking into the gallows to spy on the templars. Varric and Isabella are much more likely to agree going on some mercenary mission like blackpowder promise etc.
This would've given the opportunity to flesh the siblings (one of whom we might still loose maybe) out a lot better (also, giving them access to all trees and specs the pc has access to), and it would have been a lot easier to involve the companions on quests, because you can actually predict, where they'll be.


Huh... that would've been a pretty good way to do it.  Not just from a realistic point of view like you say, but many fans tend to always use the same group.  The others don't get enough screentime and they miss out on a lot of interaction that's specific to a character or group.  Also, I think it would've been interesting to see how Carver and Bethany interacted.  We only see how they feel about Hawke, but we have no idea what their own relationship was.

#47
Rykoth

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I definitely agree OP.

I like Bethany, and certainly would prefer having her as a sister over having Carver as a brother BUT...

As far as story goes, I think the Hawke vs. Carver stuff is excellent.

My favorite interaction is if you're aggressive towards him and he uses Bethany's death against you. "Question me, mother, yourself but ..." Awesome stuff IMO.

#48
Herr Uhl

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I like Carver better, Bethany seems like a bit of a doormat in comparison.

#49
Apollo Starflare

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I don't think I'll mind grumpy Carver when I play my mage playthrough, but I would be surprised if I like it more than I liked having Bethany with me. I thought she was a great companion: Mostly loyal, but not letting that loyalty prevent her from speaking up for Mages, with a friendly (sunny even) disposition that set her apart from a lot of the more angsty or otherwise troubled characters you recruit on your journey. I had other people with me to provide the accusations, recrimination and similar banter with anyway and I enjoyed her party banter with Varric and Isabela.

Then she died in the Deep Roads, which hit me like a gut punch. I feel bad that someone who is generally sweet natured and who holds an opinion without bashing you over the head with it is considered a 'doormat' by seemingly quite a few people. But then I imagine Carver fans feel the same way about those who trash him as being, well, whatever he is.

#50
RomanDark

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Carver and Bethany deffinitely give different experiences, with Bethany I found myself wanting to protect her which really made me want to side with the mages, with Carver I got really annoyed with him but then I also felt sorry for him and so I shipped him off to the grey wardens to make something of himself.