126 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Gremlin]

To OP: I haven't checked if Leliana is in game if you decapitated her at the Urn, but, well, it would be really crushing disappointment if she's alive. Unless she's an abomination and managed to grow a new head. Speaking of DA2... Point is - you don't really make and big choices. The only thing to carry over is Hawke's gender, appearance and class.
And now I can't help wondering what effect Gaider's "feeling old" will have on DA2 DLC or DA3. I don't really want to play, say, as octogenarian Hawke who's still alive and kicking. Or do I?....

[greyman33]

Arppis wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Dude everybody knows Romeo and Juliet was a complete ripoff of Final Fantasy 8.

That game was rather dissapointing after FF7. Damn teenagers.

It was a bit, true.  But I was hooked on that darn card game minigame...  I'd take that over giant chicken racing any day.

Now all you kids better get off my lawn!

[Aradace]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

To OP: I haven't checked if Leliana is in game if you decapitated her at the Urn, but, well, it would be really crushing disappointment if she's alive. Unless she's an abomination and managed to grow a new head. Speaking of DA2... Point is - you don't really make and big choices. The only thing to carry over is Hawke's gender, appearance and class.
And now I can't help wondering what effect Gaider's "feeling old" will have on DA2 DLC or DA3. I don't really want to play, say, as octogenarian Hawke who's still alive and kicking. Or do I?....

She is...She's alive no matter if you killed her or not.  And BW claims the lame ass excuse of "We wanted her to play a bigger role in the world" or something along those lines.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, if you guys wanted to do that, you shouldnt have given us the option to kill her to begin with lol. 

[Lord Gremlin]

Aradace wrote...

She is...She's alive no matter if you killed her or not.  And BW claims the lame ass excuse of "We wanted her to play a bigger role in the world" or something along those lines.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, if you guys wanted to do that, you shouldnt have given us the option to kill her to begin with lol. 

Well, best thing about Leliana is how satisfying it is to kill her. So, I guess that was a part of magic that made DAO so awesome.

But... You don't make things up, don't you? You have a link to Bioware post? Because, well, the excuse is too lame to be believable. Given the number of bugs in DA2, well... For example, in my first import save Zevran is dead, so no Zevran in DA2. Maybe Leliana thing is bugged.

P.S. In my other game, it took 3 reloads to decapitate the hag.

[Aradace]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Aradace wrote...

She is...She's alive no matter if you killed her or not.  And BW claims the lame ass excuse of "We wanted her to play a bigger role in the world" or something along those lines.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, if you guys wanted to do that, you shouldnt have given us the option to kill her to begin with lol. 

Well, best thing about Leliana is how satisfying it is to kill her. So, I guess that was a part of magic that made DAO so awesome.

But... You don't make things up, don't you? You have a link to Bioware post? Because, well, the excuse is too lame to be believable. Given the number of bugs in DA2, well... For example, in my first import save Zevran is dead, so no Zevran in DA2. Maybe Leliana thing is bugged.

P.S. In my other game, it took 3 reloads to decapitate the hag.

I unfortunately dont have a link.  But to sum it up, they simply "retconned" her.  And the only time you "retcon" a character is when you want them to "play a larger role" than what they were originally intended.  Im sure if you google the topic you can probably come up with an official statement on it somewhere.  So yea, lazy writing/fanservice at its best right there.  And I agree, it was very gratifying offing that preachy little hooker lol.  I just hope I get the opportunity to do it again in DA3, just out of principle.

[greyman33]

Aradace wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

To OP: I haven't checked if Leliana is in game if you decapitated her at the Urn, but, well, it would be really crushing disappointment if she's alive. Unless she's an abomination and managed to grow a new head. Speaking of DA2... Point is - you don't really make and big choices. The only thing to carry over is Hawke's gender, appearance and class.
And now I can't help wondering what effect Gaider's "feeling old" will have on DA2 DLC or DA3. I don't really want to play, say, as octogenarian Hawke who's still alive and kicking. Or do I?....

She is...She's alive no matter if you killed her or not.  And BW claims the lame ass excuse of "We wanted her to play a bigger role in the world" or something along those lines.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, if you guys wanted to do that, you shouldnt have given us the option to kill her to begin with lol. 

I will admit that at least a little handwaving here would have been nice.  Especially seeing as Origins had a rogue ability in the tree that could be used to explain her (and Zeveran's too if they really wanted to I suppose) survival without resorting to additional contrivances like "some ashes spilled on her as the Warden was stepping over her corpse on the way out the door."

There was a feign death ability rogues could use to drop aggro by literally falling down and playing dead in the middle of a battle.  Seeing as it's generally understood that the decapitation finnishing move is a non-canon feature of the game, you're just left with a dead rogue.  They could just as easily have said she faked being stabbed, and fled the scene afterward to tell the Chantry of the horrible things the Warden did to the ashes.

That would have only taken a line or two of dialoge to clear up.  Thinking about it though, why would she have needed to mention that scene at all?  Nobody we see her talking to would have been there when she was 'killed' anyway, so telling the story would have been a little off topic and pointless.

[Aradace]

greyman33 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

To OP: I haven't checked if Leliana is in game if you decapitated her at the Urn, but, well, it would be really crushing disappointment if she's alive. Unless she's an abomination and managed to grow a new head. Speaking of DA2... Point is - you don't really make and big choices. The only thing to carry over is Hawke's gender, appearance and class.
And now I can't help wondering what effect Gaider's "feeling old" will have on DA2 DLC or DA3. I don't really want to play, say, as octogenarian Hawke who's still alive and kicking. Or do I?....

She is...She's alive no matter if you killed her or not.  And BW claims the lame ass excuse of "We wanted her to play a bigger role in the world" or something along those lines.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, if you guys wanted to do that, you shouldnt have given us the option to kill her to begin with lol. 

I will admit that at least a little handwaving here would have been nice.  Especially seeing as Origins had a rogue ability in the tree that could be used to explain her (and Zeveran's too if they really wanted to I suppose) survival without resorting to additional contrivances like "some ashes spilled on her as the Warden was stepping over her corpse on the way out the door."

There was a feign death ability rogues could use to drop aggro by literally falling down and playing dead in the middle of a battle.  Seeing as it's generally understood that the decapitation finnishing move is a non-canon feature of the game, you're just left with a dead rogue.  They could just as easily have said she faked being stabbed, and fled the scene afterward to tell the Chantry of the horrible things the Warden did to the ashes.

That would have only taken a line or two of dialoge to clear up.  Thinking about it though, why would she have needed to mention that scene at all?  Nobody we see her talking to would have been there when she was 'killed' anyway, so telling the story would have been a little off topic and pointless.

Even some "handwaving" would have felt cheap.  Admittedly, it wouldnt have felt AS cheap, but it'd still feel like cheap fanservice none the less.  A little OT here but, it makes me think about ME3 now.  How many characters are they going to "retcon" because they are too lazy to write them out and/or just because someone is crying about their favorite character being dead?

Modifié par Aradace, 02 avril 2011 - 05:16 .

[DarthSliver]

Well I couldnt kill Leliana, i felt the way Bioware set it up for your characters you needed her for Lockpicking if you werent a Rogue. But the logic is the Warden would never make that choice logically because why would the Warden listen to that one person in the first place. You been attacked by his followers throughout the whole adventure in that area. I just dont see why the Warden would care to even poison/defile the Ashes in the first place since his/her main focus was to raise an army to stop the Blight from shallowing Feralden

[LobselVith8]

I think the PTB will use the Varric narrative to explain any new rectons they implement in the storyline. Given the recton of Leliana and Anders, I wonder if our limited choices in DA2 are a sign of the direction of the DA franchise. We really played no active part in the mage or templar revolution. None of our choices really mattered, aside from the romance option. I loved the characters, and I liked that the Circles are now free, but are we going to be have the same limited options in a third installment that we did in the sequel? Or are we going to be forced down the same narrative path with no ability to impact the world around us?

[Rifneno]

greyman33 wrote...

Arppis wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Dude everybody knows Romeo and Juliet was a complete ripoff of Final Fantasy 8.

That game was rather dissapointing after FF7. Damn teenagers.

It was a bit, true.  But I was hooked on that darn card game minigame...  I'd take that over giant chicken racing any day.

Now all you kids better get off my lawn!

A little?  I'm actually a fan of the series, but FF8 was so bad I honestly replayed it immediately afterwards because I thought there HAD to be more to it that I was missing, it could NOT be that awful.  But it was that awful.  The card game was only even minutely redeeming feature.  Mystic Quest was more deserving of the Final Fantasy name.  "Welcome to the weapons shop."  "Thanks, got any swords better than this one?"  "Heavens no, we don't SELL weapons!  But if you bring us a frost giant's toenail, a mithril pebble covered in algea, and a bolt out of a sentient robot from the future, I can improve that one."  "... Are you high?"

Son of a qunari, 10 years later and thinking about that game STILL makes me want to kick someone in the head!

greyman33 wrote...

I will admit that at least a little handwaving here would have been nice.

Disagree.  It's very, very obvious that the story for DA2 was not in the works when they wrote DAO.  They've had to make quite a few changes.  I'd much rather they were just honest with us and treated us like mature adults that can handle the truth than an endless string of convoluted excuses for the changes.  I for one am totally willing to accept that a few relatively minor things like this have to be changed in order for them to tell what they feel is the best story they have.

[Aradace]

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I couldnt kill Leliana, i felt the way Bioware set it up for your characters you needed her for Lockpicking if you werent a Rogue. But the logic is the Warden would never make that choice logically because why would the Warden listen to that one person in the first place. You been attacked by his followers throughout the whole adventure in that area. I just dont see why the Warden would care to even poison/defile the Ashes in the first place since his/her main focus was to raise an army to stop the Blight from shallowing Feralden

Then why give us the choice to do it in the first place?  No matter how you try to explain it, it's still lazy writing on BW's behalf.

[DarthSliver]

Aradace wrote...

greyman33 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

To OP: I haven't checked if Leliana is in game if you decapitated her at the Urn, but, well, it would be really crushing disappointment if she's alive. Unless she's an abomination and managed to grow a new head. Speaking of DA2... Point is - you don't really make and big choices. The only thing to carry over is Hawke's gender, appearance and class.
And now I can't help wondering what effect Gaider's "feeling old" will have on DA2 DLC or DA3. I don't really want to play, say, as octogenarian Hawke who's still alive and kicking. Or do I?....

She is...She's alive no matter if you killed her or not.  And BW claims the lame ass excuse of "We wanted her to play a bigger role in the world" or something along those lines.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, if you guys wanted to do that, you shouldnt have given us the option to kill her to begin with lol. 

I will admit that at least a little handwaving here would have been nice.  Especially seeing as Origins had a rogue ability in the tree that could be used to explain her (and Zeveran's too if they really wanted to I suppose) survival without resorting to additional contrivances like "some ashes spilled on her as the Warden was stepping over her corpse on the way out the door."

There was a feign death ability rogues could use to drop aggro by literally falling down and playing dead in the middle of a battle.  Seeing as it's generally understood that the decapitation finnishing move is a non-canon feature of the game, you're just left with a dead rogue.  They could just as easily have said she faked being stabbed, and fled the scene afterward to tell the Chantry of the horrible things the Warden did to the ashes.

That would have only taken a line or two of dialoge to clear up.  Thinking about it though, why would she have needed to mention that scene at all?  Nobody we see her talking to would have been there when she was 'killed' anyway, so telling the story would have been a little off topic and pointless.

Even some "handwaving" would have felt cheap.  Admittedly, it wouldnt have felt AS cheap, but it'd still feel like cheap fanservice none the less.  A little OT here but, it makes me think about ME3 now.  How many characters are they going to "retcon" because they are too lazy to write them out and/or just because someone is crying about their favorite character being dead?

Well one can say that Bioware is focused on making sure The Old Republic MMO is a successful release. Which leads me to think DA2 shouldve been delayed until around the same time ME3 would come out to ensure no problems with it would happen.  I dont think we have to worry about ME3 being effected either because I understand that they writtened the base of the entire series already before ME1 was released. As DA2, They made DA:O end the way it did because I dont think the expected it to do as well as it did intially. DA:O is a 7 year made game as DA2 is 2 years or less made.

[Lord Gremlin]

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I couldnt kill Leliana, i felt the way Bioware set it up for your characters you needed her for Lockpicking if you werent a Rogue. But the logic is the Warden would never make that choice logically because why would the Warden listen to that one person in the first place. You been attacked by his followers throughout the whole adventure in that area. I just dont see why the Warden would care to even poison/defile the Ashes in the first place since his/her main focus was to raise an army to stop the Blight from shallowing Feralden

For example, Warden is a blood mage, who hates Chantry and adores Tevinter imperium. A chance to defile that **** Andraste? Yes, please.
My first import-save Warden actually defiled the ashes, but I had Leliana in DA2, because I never recruited that hag in DAO on that playthrough. So I assumed that she fled Lothering by herself.

[DarthSliver]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I couldnt kill Leliana, i felt the way Bioware set it up for your characters you needed her for Lockpicking if you werent a Rogue. But the logic is the Warden would never make that choice logically because why would the Warden listen to that one person in the first place. You been attacked by his followers throughout the whole adventure in that area. I just dont see why the Warden would care to even poison/defile the Ashes in the first place since his/her main focus was to raise an army to stop the Blight from shallowing Feralden

For example, Warden is a blood mage, who hates Chantry and adores Tevinter imperium. A chance to defile that **** Andraste? Yes, please.
My first import-save Warden actually defiled the ashes, but I had Leliana in DA2, because I never recruited that hag in DAO on that playthrough. So I assumed that she fled Lothering by herself.

Yes just as Elfs are also in that same position with reason for defiling the Ashes, but more so because Andraste's religion is a human base religion and the base few centuries they havent been treated too well by the humans. So why not shatter their religion and legend at the sametime.

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

For example, Warden is a blood mage, who hates Chantry and adores Tevinter imperium. A chance to defile that **** Andraste? Yes, please.
My first import-save Warden actually defiled the ashes, but I had Leliana in DA2, because I never recruited that hag in DAO on that playthrough. So I assumed that she fled Lothering by herself.

I don't know, wouldn't a pro-Tevinter blood mage be more interested in stealing all the ashes, which do work, to experiment on them for SCIENCE?
Too bad that isn't an option, really. You either support religious dogma, or be a malicious vandal.

[Herr Uhl]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

For example, Warden is a blood mage, who hates Chantry and adores Tevinter imperium. A chance to defile that **** Andraste? Yes, please.
My first import-save Warden actually defiled the ashes, but I had Leliana in DA2, because I never recruited that hag in DAO on that playthrough. So I assumed that she fled Lothering by herself.

Tevinter prays to Andraste too. It would be odd to support the old Tevinter Imperium though, as you're about a 1000 years too late.

[Aradace]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

For example, Warden is a blood mage, who hates Chantry and adores Tevinter imperium. A chance to defile that **** Andraste? Yes, please.
My first import-save Warden actually defiled the ashes, but I had Leliana in DA2, because I never recruited that hag in DAO on that playthrough. So I assumed that she fled Lothering by herself.

Tevinter prays to Andraste too. It would be odd to support the old Tevinter Imperium though, as you're about a 1000 years too late.

Doesnt matter, there is nothing can be said that will adequately justify the laziness in writing on BWs behalf.  If they didnt want the players to have that choice, why write it in to begin with?

[LobselVith8]

DA2 only acknowledges the discovery of the Ashes if Genitivi is alive or spoken to if he was sent back to Denerim (based on the quest that's available in Lowtown). I suppose there's nothing to preclude the Hero of Ferelden from using the ashes... for science... if the Chantry never finds them. I'm sure they would peak Avernus' interests.

[Herr Uhl]

Aradace wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

For example, Warden is a blood mage, who hates Chantry and adores Tevinter imperium. A chance to defile that **** Andraste? Yes, please.
My first import-save Warden actually defiled the ashes, but I had Leliana in DA2, because I never recruited that hag in DAO on that playthrough. So I assumed that she fled Lothering by herself.

Tevinter prays to Andraste too. It would be odd to support the old Tevinter Imperium though, as you're about a 1000 years too late.

Doesnt matter, there is nothing can be said that will adequately justify the laziness in writing on BWs behalf.  If they didnt want the players to have that choice, why write it in to begin with?

I didn't comment on that. So your comment doesn't matter.

[Oneiropolos]

Ah, yes,  "Leliana's death", we have dismissed that claim.

...sorry. Couldn't resist.

More seriously, while they could have used generic Seeker 256 to show up in Sebastian's quest and at the end, it would have lacked "OMG, It's Leliana!" impact. Here's what I simply hope... that they actually DO make it apparent why she was important to bring back in more than just a cameo way. I mean, Zev's appearance was a bug for people. You theoretically could have it so he's dead, which indicates they're pretty done with his story. Since Leliana is there no matter what and her appearance ISN'T a bug, I'd just like to the next game, or DLC or whatever, have a genuine reason for "This is why it was Leliana and why we decided she lived no matter what." -I- never was one to kill her, the only companion I've ever willingly killed was Anders and that was because HE spurred it on through his actions, not because I did something that was abhorrent to him.

To those saying "But I decapitated Leliana", and ignore that the finishing moves aren't technically ever canon... I point to Zev. He still talks to you no matter how he 'dies' in the fight he's introduced in. If there wasn't a cutscene of him being on the ground injured, and we instead just left, the player would certainly think he was dead. He wasn't at that point. You could argue the same occurs with Leliana.

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 02 avril 2011 - 06:00 .

[Aradace]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

For example, Warden is a blood mage, who hates Chantry and adores Tevinter imperium. A chance to defile that **** Andraste? Yes, please.
My first import-save Warden actually defiled the ashes, but I had Leliana in DA2, because I never recruited that hag in DAO on that playthrough. So I assumed that she fled Lothering by herself.

Tevinter prays to Andraste too. It would be odd to support the old Tevinter Imperium though, as you're about a 1000 years too late.

Doesnt matter, there is nothing can be said that will adequately justify the laziness in writing on BWs behalf.  If they didnt want the players to have that choice, why write it in to begin with?

I didn't comment on that. So your comment doesn't matter.

No need to get touchy like Im about to kick your puppy or something lol...It just came off like you were trying to defend BWs laziness is all

[LobselVith8]

Oneiropolos, it isn't the finishing move but rather the fact that Leliana basically becomes a zombie who came back from the dead. Dead is dead. Saying the Warden couldn't tell the difference when he's killed a plethora of antagonists and creatures seems silly, and that seems to be what the devs are implying for those people who killed her in their DA:O run.

[Herr Uhl]

Aradace wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I didn't comment on that. So your comment doesn't matter.

No need to get touchy like Im about to kick your puppy or something lol...It just came off like you were trying to defend BWs laziness is all

I wasn't. I just find the characters reasoning to be odd.

[Aradace]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Ah, yes,  "Leliana's death", we have dismissed that claim.

...sorry. Couldn't resist.

More seriously, while they could have used generic Seeker 256 to show up in Sebastian's quest and at the end, it would have lacked "OMG, It's Leliana!" impact. Here's what I simply hope... that they actually DO make it apparent why she was important to bring back in more than just a cameo way. I mean, Zev's appearance was a bug for people. You theoretically could have it so he's dead, which indicates they're pretty done with his story. Since Leliana is there no matter what and her appearance ISN'T a bug, I'd just like to the next game, or DLC or whatever, have a genuine reason for "This is why it was Leliana and why we decided she lived no matter what." -I- never was one to kill her, the only companion I've ever willingly killed was Anders and that was because HE spurred it on through his actions, not because I did something that was abhorrent to him.

To those saying "But I decapitated Leliana", and ignore that the finishing moves aren't technically ever canon... I point to Zev. He still talks to you no matter how he 'dies' in the fight he's introduced in. If there wasn't a cutscene of him being on the ground injured, and we instead just left, the player would certainly think he was dead. He wasn't at that point. You could argue the same occurs with Leliana.

Actually, Zev ISNT retconned.  Because he is dead in EVERY one of my Origins data files and never once showed up in DA2.  The reason I know he's not retconned, because my wife let him live in all her data files and he shows up every time.  But looking closer at the post, that may not be what you're talking about, to which, I apologize if its not lol.  Regardless, there is NO amount of explaining that WOULDNT make Leliana's miraculous return to life feel like nothing more than cheap fanservice and lazy writing.  If I wanted that kind of lazy writing, Id watch soap operas.  I just cant stress enough how lazy it is on BWs behalf that they did this.  Which brings me back to my original statement of;  If they do this in DA2, why not just completely get rid of dialog choices altogether in DA3 and essentially make it a JRPG.  At least that way it would have an excuse for being lame.

[Oneiropolos]

... I didn't say Zev was retconned. I said him appearing in DA2 was a BUG because many people who DID kill him off in DA:O are seeing his quest in DA2 anyway. It's an acknowledged bug by Bioware, same as people who let Nathaniel die seeing Nathaniel or Nathaniel saying the Architect is alive even if you've killed the architect. They're BUGS. But Leliana is acknowledged as NOT a bug and even without the Exiled Prince DLC, you do see her at the end.

Honestly, to be so offended of how dare she show back up when the very fact that Anders and Justice were present in the game... and they form a core amount of the game.. is ridiculous. In MY playthrough, Justice was presumably killed. Anders was with me, so he lived. But I'm fine accepting that the writers had a good reason to bring both Anders and Justice back for the sake of the story. We do not know what Leliana's real role is yet. Let's say even as high as 20% of people killed Leliana and that's what they imported... I don't think it actually IS that high and even if they killed her on a playthrough, you also have to consider the chances of that being the one they imported... but we'll go with 20%. Or even 25% if you want. So 1/4th of the audience killed a character. The writers decide that they actually do have greater plans for that character. So they try to give you a plausible reason for how she survived...though the fact is, they've only pointed out the Urn thing. They have NOT stated that's how she survived. Since there are so many things we do not know, I can understand annoyance, but calling it lame or the staff lazy for it is honestly absurd. We DON'T KNOW too many things. You pretty much state you are unwilling to accept any explanation in a world full of magic, dragons, elves, dwarves, lyrium, and so forth. So there's really no point to this discussion. You can just choose not to buy the next game since you have no faith in the developers. :/