36 réponses à ce sujet

[greyman33]

All right, in the interest of full disclosure here, I've never been big on organized religion on a personal level.  Nothing against other people who are into that sort of thing, but there it is.

In any event, after listening to the various stories from characters in Origins and DA2 as well as reading the codex entries, I just can't figure out why The Maker would make a very compelling diety to worship.

He comes off, to me anyway, as an exceedingly fickle, abusive, spiteful parent, and also an adulterer who, when he can be bothered to show up at all, is quick to punish his 'children' for his own failings.

So, just going by what the Chantry holds as their cannon, The Maker first creates the fade and the Golden City.  Next, he creates the spirits (half of which eventually become demons) to populate the city.  Before long, however, he realizes that he made flawed children, because he did not infure them with the 'divine spark'.  So, rather than fix this, he instead kicks all his children out of the city without a thought.

So, unwanted kids tossed into the street to fend for themselves (and grow bitter about it), he then makes Thedas and all the various lifeforms that inhabit it.  Before long though, his first batch of unwanted children start talking to his new kids, and these new children start paying more attention to these 'older siblings' who talk to them while their father stays quiet upstairs in his study.  The Maker doesn't like this at all, so he abandons his new kids just like his old, he 'goes out for some milk' and isn't seen again for generations.

The next time he does show up it's because his new kids broke into his house.  Seems that in all that time he was gone, his older children, the demons, had been talking up their dad's great vacation house in the fade to a bunch of their 'little brothers' up in Tevinter.  They even let these kids know where to find the key to get in the back door.

So, this absentee father finds out some of his children have come home.  His reaction to this is to essentially burn his own house down, warp his kids into hideous creatures that mindlessly spread corruption and death, then drop them back to Thedas to perpetually try to destroy everything else there.  He then goes away again (probably a fishing trip or something) to let these things all sort themself out.

He only botheres to visit again when a young girl catches his eye.  Problem is, she's already married.  Like any good diety however, he doesn't let this stop him, and he starts dating her anyway.  He even gets the husband out of the way by having this girl ask him to run errands (which in this case happens to be a huge war).  When the adultery is all out in the open he not only leaves his girlfriend hung out to dry (very dry, especially after all the fire...), but he makes like Bruce Springsteen once again; going out for a ride and never coming back.

So now, there are a bunch of people running around Thedas worshiping this guy just hoping he'll eventually decide to return.  Based on past history, what makes them think this return will be a good one?  Why would this time be anything different from past visits to his creations?  The Chantry strikes me as an abuse victim that just keeps refusing to press charges and moving right back in with their abuser.  Based on his track record, I'd have to think that if the Maker returns at all, it won't be long before some little thing sets him off and he either (at best) dumps everyone on the curb again, or curses/banishes some other group of people causing misery for all.

Maybe I'm missing something, or just a hopeless heretic, but I don't see the draw in worshiping this guy.

[Camenae]

greyman33 wrote...

He comes off, to me anyway, as an exceedingly fickle, abusive, spiteful parent, and also an adulterer who, when he can be bothered to show up at all, is quick to punish his 'children' for his own failings.

Sorry to just pick out this one bit but at this moment I don't feel equal to responding to your lengthy post in its entirety and give its thoughtfulness full credit.  (I'm Christian in real life although not evangelical.  Some might find that oxymoronic but there it is).

I found the whole Andraste thing confusing.  So she was married already and this "Maker" picks her out.  For no apparent reason...Yeah she sings and stuff, but what like she's the only one who can?  You're right.  What about her husband?  Maferath was right to be pissed, because I mean, what the hell. 

But I guess people who find Zeus worthy of worship, then they can probably find the Maker worthy of worship too.

[Casuist]

...spiritually wed.

...um, Mary and Joseph?

...people will tolerate a lot out of their gods if they believe they exist... after all, who else is the average Thedosian going to turn to?

[TJPags]

I could respond to the OP in depth, but I'd likely ****** off a whole lot of people by doing so.

So let me just say, that story is not unlike the stories behind many relgions, past and present.

Those who worship the deity - we are the perfect children, all others are flawed. Just like the Maker and the spirits/demons.

The deity has turned away - have to explain why the deity doesn't show up to dinner somehow, right?

Supernatural relationship with deity/children of deity - some people are just so special, they must be either children of gods, gods themselves, of the chosen of the gods.

heaven - has to be some explanation for why we can't see it, what better then "we were kicked out, and have to prove ourselves worthy to get back in"?

So, yea, in short, the Maker is pretty much a deity from any religion you care to choose.

And I hope that was general enough not to offend people.

[Torax]

I just prefer Merrill's response.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=GR6GfGA-sMs

At 35 seconds.

Modifié par Torax, 02 avril 2011 - 04:51 .

[Camilladilla]

I've always found the Maker worship more in line with the ancient religions where people would worship deities that were responsible for destruction and other unhappy stuff to appease these gods. So people worship him so he doesn't do more bad stuff to them?

[mesmerizedish]

 

TJPags wrote...

I could respond to the OP in depth, but I'd likely ****** off a whole lot of people by doing so.

So let me just say, that story is not unlike the stories behind many relgions, past and present.

Those who worship the deity - we are the perfect children, all others are flawed. Just like the Maker and the spirits/demons.

The deity has turned away - have to explain why the deity doesn't show up to dinner somehow, right?

Supernatural relationship with deity/children of deity - some people are just so special, they must be either children of gods, gods themselves, of the chosen of the gods.

heaven - has to be some explanation for why we can't see it, what better then "we were kicked out, and have to prove ourselves worthy to get back in"?

So, yea, in short, the Maker is pretty much a deity from any religion you care to choose.

And I hope that was general enough not to offend people.

This, pretty much. I dig Yahweh, but the Torah really doesn't have anything nice to say about Him.

[LobselVith8]

greyman33 wrote...

Maybe I'm missing something, or just a hopeless heretic, but I don't see the draw in worshiping this guy.

Morrigan mentions the same thing about the Maker and Andraste. In Lothering she says, "Fools. Praying for help from a prophet they burned and a god who has turned His back on them not once but twice."

[Torax]

Part of the reason the Chantry probably is so afraid of the Qunari is there is no Diety that they follow. Same for the Dwarves. Just the Dwarves don't expand on the surface. The Qunari would if the Qun demands.

Modifié par Torax, 02 avril 2011 - 04:53 .

[Casuist]

Camilladilla wrote...

I've always found the Maker worship more in line with the ancient religions where people would worship deities that were responsible for destruction and other unhappy stuff to appease these gods. So people worship him so he doesn't do more bad stuff to them?

"ancient" ?

[mesmerizedish]

Torax wrote...

I just prefer Merrill's response.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=GR6GfGA-sMs

At 35 seconds.

You're absolutely right. **** Andraste, I'm worshipping Aveline.

[Twofold Black]

Read some real-world mythology. Any mythology. Most mythological figures are psychotic jerkbags. This is probably because murdering sociopaths make for interesting, retellable stories (see also: the entirety of modern media).

The link you're missing is that there's a lot more to a religion than the dry facts of the behavior of the main characters in its scripture. A literal reading of e.g. the Tanakh will give you a pretty smitey picture of God, yet Judaism is both a beautiful and a functional religion, because it's subjected its holy texts to thousands of years of interrogation and analysis under the pressures the real world puts on any religion (to foster and provide community, psychological succor and so on) and arrived at a set of interpretations that's relevant to normal people on a day-to-day basis. This is what we don't see in the Dragon Age games -- we see the cosmological stuff, the stories about the Maker and Andraste, but we never hear what the Chant or the Chantry have to say about what you should do if, say, you learn a secret that your friend should be aware of but that you know will hurt him to hear. We don't really have enough information about this religion to analyze it.

Speaking of Andraste, it's worth pointing out that the Chantry seems to venerate her as much as it does the Maker, and she's definitely a cuddlier figure than he is (despite having been, uh, a warleader, and clearly a formidable person).

[Torax]

Casuist wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

I've always found the Maker worship more in line with the ancient religions where people would worship deities that were responsible for destruction and other unhappy stuff to appease these gods. So people worship him so he doesn't do more bad stuff to them?

"ancient" ?

Probably an attempt to reference the earley beliefs of Gods that control the Weather and so on. The explain the unknown. Which the Chantry does. Why do the Darkspawn exist? Cause of sin and the Maker's punishment for said sin. There were some vengeful gods that required sacrifice in some beliefs. I wouldn't call all Ancient or flawed. Blood spilled by beliefs is not exactly just an ancient thing. heh.

[Camilladilla]

Casuist wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

I've always found the Maker worship more in line with the ancient religions where people would worship deities that were responsible for destruction and other unhappy stuff to appease these gods. So people worship him so he doesn't do more bad stuff to them?

"ancient" ?

As in religions that no longer exist and are only known today because of bored arts students who take religions for the extra credit? 

[wulfsturm]

This thread cannot end well...

[mesmerizedish]

Camilladilla wrote...

Casuist wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

I've always found the Maker worship more in line with the ancient religions where people would worship deities that were responsible for destruction and other unhappy stuff to appease these gods. So people worship him so he doesn't do more bad stuff to them?

"ancient" ?

As in religions that no longer exist and are only known today because of bored arts students who take religions for the extra credit? 

I believe his point is that what you said is just as true of modern religions

[mesmerizedish]

wulfsturm wrote...

This thread cannot end well...

Hey, now. I've posted in it. The topic will turn to how they're all bi any minute now.

[Camilladilla]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

Casuist wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

I've always found the Maker worship more in line with the ancient religions where people would worship deities that were responsible for destruction and other unhappy stuff to appease these gods. So people worship him so he doesn't do more bad stuff to them?

"ancient" ?

As in religions that no longer exist and are only known today because of bored arts students who take religions for the extra credit? 

I believe his point is that what you said is just as true of modern religions

Eh, the modern religions these days are more about "if we worship this god we'll get a cool reward at the end!" rather than "if we worship this god of disease we might not be hit with the plague this year!"

[Torax]

I think one of my favorites is when Leliana is telling the story of Andraste's death. You can basically ask "Why didn't he shield her let her use her powers?". Even Leliana was wondering that.

"I don't know. It's a nice story. But I think it has some holes."

[mesmerizedish]

Camilladilla wrote...

Eh, the modern religions these days are more about "if we worship this god we'll get a cool reward at the end!" rather than "if we worship this god of disease we might not be hit with the plague this year!"

The reward is only there to make up for the "if we don't worship this god, we'll burn in hell forever!"

I mean, really guise? Come now.

For Jews, it's really more of a "Well, my parents did it" kind of thing. We don't even believe in an afterlife as such.

[wulfsturm]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Hey, now. I've posted in it. The topic will turn to how they're all bi any minute now.

This thread will turn into a lesbian orgy if you keep posting.

[mesmerizedish]

wulfsturm wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Hey, now. I've posted in it. The topic will turn to how they're all bi any minute now.

This thread will turn into a lesbian orgy if you keep posting.

By Yahweh's righteous fist, then I'd have to leave. I'm trying to be nicer to the people I love :innocent:

[Camilladilla]

wulfsturm wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Hey, now. I've posted in it. The topic will turn to how they're all bi any minute now.

This thread will turn into a lesbian orgy if you keep posting.

Oh. Well, no wonder I have this sudden compulsion to take off my shirt.

[Twofold Black]

wulfsturm wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Hey, now. I've posted in it. The topic will turn to how they're all bi any minute now.

This thread will turn into a lesbian orgy if you keep posting.

My god, that sounds terrible. But how can we be sure? Ishmael, we may need you to post some more. You know. For science.