36 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

Camilladilla wrote...

Oh. Well, no wonder I have this sudden compulsion to take off my shirt.

I do tend to have that effect on people. It's gotten me into more trouble than fun, though.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 02 avril 2011 - 05:12 .

[Rifneno]

Torax wrote...

I just prefer Merrill's response.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=GR6GfGA-sMs

At 35 seconds.

Holy crap, Sebastian.  When Merrill beats you in a debate, you know you suck.

Filament wrote...

Filial piety, respect for one's betters.

I believe a man named Vaughan Kendells had similar ideals.

I don't recall it working out too well for him in the end.

[Raiil]

I don't get the appeal, either.


I'm not openly religious myself, so that may be part of it, but generally speaking, the Maker is a doucherocket.

[Ruben Thomas]

I don't want to get banned so I'm just going to quote other people to show my opinion.

Camenae wrote...
I found the whole Andraste thing confusing.  So she was married already and this "Maker" picks her out.  For no apparent reason...Yeah she sings and stuff, but what like she's the only one who can?  You're right.  What about her husband?  Maferath was right to be pissed, because I mean, what the hell.

Casuist wrote...
...um, Mary and Joseph?

Camenae wrote...
But I guess people who find Zeus worthy of worship, then they can probably find the Maker worthy of worship too.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
I mean, really guise? Come now.

[Casuist]

Camilladilla wrote...

Casuist wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

I've always found the Maker worship more in line with the ancient religions where people would worship deities that were responsible for destruction and other unhappy stuff to appease these gods. So people worship him so he doesn't do more bad stuff to them?

"ancient" ?

As in religions that no longer exist and are only known today because of bored arts students who take religions for the extra credit? 

...sorry I was just being fatuous for effect. My point was that many modern religions still embrace elements of doctrine and religious history that are equally violent.

Edit: Thanks, ishmael, spot on

Modifié par Casuist, 02 avril 2011 - 05:51 .

[Casuist]

I'd say broadly and diplomatically that DA religions are not wholly representative or a commentary on any real-world religion or philosophy but are very effective at bringing to mind the broad spectrum of emotional reactions to and philosophical considerations of real-world religions.... to Bioware's credit.

to the original subject, the Maker is a compelling example of a deity that is accepted by most in-game characters we encounter, but that acceptance is tempered by the characters in a manner that adds to them considerably. Aveline's tentativeness on stating Wesley is with the maker is an excellent example.

"I've heard the chant, some of it is beautiful... maybe that's all it needs to be."

The maker is the context for interesting insight there and elsewhere.

[Rifneno]

Ruben Thomas wrote...

I don't want to get banned so I'm just going to quote other people to show my opinion.

Casuist wrote...
...um, Mary and Joseph?

Not the same thing.  The Maker wanted Andraste for his wife, God simply impregnated Mary through completely nonsexual means.  Joseph wasn't asked to give up his wife, Maferath was.  And aside from both ending up martyrs, there's little similarities between Andraste and Jesus.  One of them changed the world by waging war against evil, the other changed it by being a complete pacifist.

I'm not saying that's the right or wrong course of action, I don't want to debate that and I highly recommend nobody else think this is an appropriate place for a real life religious debate.  IT'S NOT.  I'm simply pointing out the differences between the two religions and why the Chantry is not a carbon copy of Christianity.  The Chantry certainly takes some elements of Christianity, but it also takes elements of many other religions and likely some that are all its own.

[Casuist]

Rifneno wrote...

Not the same thing.  The Maker wanted Andraste for his wife,

...again, this was a spiritual marriage. The only physically manifested husband Andraste had was Maferath, and Joseph is an apt comparison.

Joseph wasn't asked to give up his wife, Maferath was.

Maferath needed to accept that the Maker came before him. Joseph had to accept that the child and his father came before him.

And aside from both ending up martyrs, there's little similarities between Andraste and Jesus.  One of them changed the world by waging war against evil, the other changed it by being a complete pacifist.

I wholeheartedly agree... although if you were to go so far as to say that Andraste's example has no parallel whatsoever in Christian tradition I would not.

[PsychoBlonde]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Richard Dawkins

Thedas is an interesting realm because the only culture with a philosophical tradition appears to be . . . the Qunari. Which is weird beyond all belief. Modern religions in the real world post-date the great philosophical heritage of the Greeks and numerous other philosophers around the world (Buddha, Confucious, etc. etc. etc.) and so contain a lot of actual philosophy. The Chantry? Not so much. It appears to be pre- or proto-philosophy--but in actuality it's a pagan religion that has many of the trappings we associate with a modern religion. (Granted, many modern real-life religions have a lot of pagan trappings, so it's kind of amusing either way.)

The writers also haven't gone into any of the details that would make the Chantry an emotionally fulfilling religion. In contrast, this aspect of the Qun has actually been rather better revealed. It HAS been alluded to, however. It appears that True Believers in the Chantry think that if they follow the Chantry tenants, they'll go to hang out with the Maker in the afterlife. However, if they don't, they will wander hopelessly in oblivion, cast from the Maker's sight. In addition, if they spread the Chant sufficiently, the Maker will *gasp* actually come back to the world and there will be peace on earth and good will toward men. Presumably. Sounds a lot like the Second Coming to me. So, fundamentally, it offers the same emotional involvement as most religions.

[Ruben Thomas]

I agree with Casuist.

[Statulos]

We should think of the Chantry´s teachins on a structural/functional level, not a rational one. The Chantry capitalizes on the basic feeling of every human culture: we are afraid to die.

So the trick and what is important to consider here is not that its teachings make sense, but that the myths it is based upon solve a set of problems.

I do not want to bore you people with Claude Lèvi-Strauss theory of myth but what the mythology of the Maker does is simply bridging the gap between individuals and death: it offeres a series of narratives capable of giving a sense (again, not a reason) to the vicisitudes of life.

I have no idea who is behind the writting of the Chantry but kuddos to him/her: it is well designed.