73 réponses à ce sujet

[Mnemnosyne]

My human noble was ready to support Bhelen, but she checked at the Shaperate because Vartag seemed a little shifty to her. While she felt that the line of succession should be maintained and Bhelen is the rightful heir, she couldn't side with someone who was clearly forging documents and ignoring the law for various reasons, the most practical of which would be - who's to say he wouldn't, once he's on the throne, ignore the treaty and do absolutely nothing to help with the Blight on the surface, instead focusing merely on using the time the darkspawn are busy elsewhere to secure more ground for Orzammar?

[EricHVela]

Koyasha wrote...

My human noble was ready to support Bhelen, but she checked at the Shaperate because Vartag seemed a little shifty to her. While she felt that the line of succession should be maintained and Bhelen is the rightful heir, she couldn't side with someone who was clearly forging documents and ignoring the law for various reasons, the most practical of which would be - who's to say he wouldn't, once he's on the throne, ignore the treaty and do absolutely nothing to help with the Blight on the surface, instead focusing merely on using the time the darkspawn are busy elsewhere to secure more ground for Orzammar?

Unfortunately for the dwarves, deliberation doesn't get much done. You find out in the epilogue. Assassination is the way of politics in Orzammar. It's a caste system. Democracy and honesty have little to do with birthrights. It's their way, and like the stone, they're not going to change any time soon.

[KingNothing125]

Yeah my PC and Gorim's titles were restored, my PC was made a Paragon, and Harrowmont named my PC as his heir... but the actual epilogue only went so far to say that Harrowmont was pretty much a failure and that he died.



Disappointing.

[Apophis2412]

KingNothing125 wrote...

Yeah my PC and Gorim's titles were restored, my PC was made a Paragon, and Harrowmont named my PC as his heir... but the actual epilogue only went so far to say that Harrowmont was pretty much a failure and that he died.

Disappointing.

Do you become heir to the throne or heir to house Aeducan?

[Fryce]

AM I the only one who sided with BOTH OF THEM and played both sides?! I guess you do have to crown someone though..depends though Harrowmont is uncaring for dusters but is a bit more noble however  creates a civil war that will lead to an exalted march whereas the other kept everyone on the whip and thus the dwarves were much more unified.

The dwarven part of this game is genuis. I really hope they do a DLC to introduce Kal Sharok and see the other side of all this!

Modifié par SharpneI, 07 décembre 2009 - 10:02 .

[KingNothing125]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Do you become heir to the throne or heir to house Aeducan?

I'm pretty sure I remember Gorim telling my PC at the celebration/coronation that they were Aeducans again and that Harrowmont named my PC as his heir.

I think being the Aeducan heir would go without saying, since you're Bhelan's elder sibling.

[Alastrian]

I see both as dishonourable. You can't exactly make it far in dwarven politics without treachery. Harrowmont is better at acting honourable, but I really don't see him as any more honourable than Bhelen.

So when it comes to choosing who should be king, I only consider two things:

1. Who will be better able to contribute to the war effort against the Darkspawn
2. Who will be more likely to improve the situation in Orzammar

For point 1, I would say that Bhelen wins out hands down. He's not averse to recruiting amongst the dusters to build this army, whereas Harrowmont would only draw from the Warrior Caste and the Legion of the Dead. Without the Anvil of the Void (which I pretty much always destroy as Caridin wishes), whoever can muster the most troops to battle the Blight is going to be a better ally to the Grey Wardens.

As for point 2, again, I'd say that Bhelen wins hands down. Harrowmont is mired in the old ways, in the 'proud' traditions of the dwarven nation. Does it really look like their traditions are working that well? They have lost all but two of their thaigs out of the many that spanned a whole empire, they would be hard pressed having enough troops to defend what little they have left were it not for the Blight taking the darkspawn to the surface, and the dusters, having nothing to lose, are going to always be trouble given that they have no opportunity to transcend the fate of being born as a Brand.

Having Harrowmont as king, preserving these silly traditions would only be continuing Orzammar's current path of stagnation and ruin. Bhelen appears to have no qualms about defying tradition to ensure that Orzammar as a whole is stronger. After all, with the Blight ended, the darkspawn are going to be returning to the Deep Roads and will once again be threatening the dwarves most. A king who has no qualms about recruiting dusters into Orzammar's army is going to have an easier time defending the city without relying on the Anvil of the Void than one who will only allow the Warrior Caste and Legion of the Dead to fight.

Yeah, I really don't like Bhelen either... I definitely detest tyrants (which is why I'd never spare Loghain at the Landsmeet), but to people beneath the noble and warrior castes, Harrowmont is probably a tyrant as well... and he is especially a tyrant towards the Casteless. It really is screwed up that you have to go with one... it'd be awesome if a dwarf noble character could choose him/herself for the crown instead of the brother who framed him/her or the man who sentenced him/her to die out in the Deep Roads. Of course, I know it wouldn't make much sense given that at that point the dwarf noble is still stripped of name, title and birthright.

Modifié par Alastrian, 07 décembre 2009 - 12:37 .

[Mikka-chan]

I don't think Harrowmont lies to the PC at any point in the game if the PC is not playing both sides (I may be wrong, though!). It does seem like the Dwarf King wanted him to rule (paticularly if you play a Dwarf Noble and get the note from Gorim). His missions are straight-forward: go win the provings and figure out how he got my warriors to get quit, go wipe out the Carta, go rescue Branka if she still lives. Bhelen, on the other hand, does send you out with forged documents- and going to the Shaper seems pretty obvious, the way his lackey talks about how the Shaper is too biased (I admittedly did an 'Aha, corruption!' and rushed off to the Shaper to try to reform him/blackmail him, depending on the character... before I read about anything on the boards).

I don't think honesty makes a King, though.

I think it is very hard to say that Harrowmont is not the better man. He's the King's chosen successor, his attitude towards the casteless or stone-lost is no worse then the way they are already treated, and saying the most about him is his willing to submit to Bhelen's rule rather then 'I WON'T ACCEPT IT RAWR' attack like Bhelen does. However, being the better man does not make him a good man (simply better then his opponent), and it certainly doesn't make him a good king.

Most of my characters probably will back Bhelen. The only one who didn't was my idealistic Dwarven Noble (...how she was idealistic in that environment, I'm not really sure, but then again, she didn't have that high Willpower/Magic... hm), who wouldn't be able to forgive him for killing her brother and who had the belief that Harrowmont being a 'nice' guy would be enough. It wasn't, but at least her ending had her going back to Orz... I like to think that her, Gorim, and Zev (who tagged along despite not being a romance instance) will, somehow, manage to save the city despite the epilogues. Can't be too much harder then destroying the Blight...

[Soeverein]

My city elf picked Harrowmont. He had no clue about the politics in dwarf town, but Harrowmont treated him better than Bhelen did with the bullying tactics and stuff.



My dwarf noble hasn't gone back to Orzammar yet, though it will depend on how Bhelen treats her on her return. As long as he doesn't try any **** again, she'll probably pick him because



1) Harrowmont may be nice to her, but he's also weak.

2) Bhelen may be a dick, but he's still the last remnant of house Aeducan.



And as a character she prefers strength and blood bonds over being nice.

[ExistsAlready]

Bhelen seems to have some kind of deepseated love of his city and his people that he doesn't particularly make clear. He goes to some fairly vicious lengths to make sure he becomes King but once on the throne, despite annoying the traditions-heavy Warrior and Noble castes, makes Orzammar a much better place by taking the entire "criminal caste" and channeling them into Orzammar's defense.



The Dwarven people ultimately gain from his reforms of the caste system and surface trade while the only people he annoys are self-important warrior types and a group of uppity nobles who try to hold him back on "tradition".

[kevinwastaken]

Who cares about dwarf problems? When the blight is taken care of they can all rot in their elaborate tomb.

[Decomposey]

I couldn't decide which to choose on my first playthrough, so I left the choice up to a completely unbiased party: I asked my boyfriend to choose, boyfriend who hasn't played the game, hadn't looked at the game, hasn't even heard the game since I play with a headset. "Sweety, who should I choose for king, the son of the last king, or the dude who was his chosen successor?" He chose Bhelen since in his words 'the chosen successor obviously killed the last king.'



And reading the epilogue, he chose wisely

[Sumix101]

My Human Noble ended up choosing Harrowmont in the end because he seemed the type that would honour the treaty. The blacksmith that is the father of Danga said that Harrowmont always paid on time. Apart from that my noble didn't care about what happened in Ozammar. Plus Bhelen's voice annoyed me a little.



In one playthrough I choose Bhelen but I hate how he orders Harrowmonts execution after he says he won't oppose him.

[Heldenbrand]

I would like to know why, from the writers perspective, a dwarven noble or even commoner being declared Paragon with the blessing of another Paragon, cannot become king? I'm not sure why a living Paragon would not immediately usurp that position given their status in dwarven society.  After all, my human noble is able to become King. I'd like to see my dwarf be able to return to power.

Modifié par Heldenbrand, 08 décembre 2009 - 03:42 .

[Wolfva2]

Forsakerr wrote...

JamesX wrote...

I picked Bhalen. Harrowmont and Bhalen are both not good, at least Bhalen has the guts to be honest about it.

The letters you have to give to the two nobles are forged if you talk to the shaperate he looks at it and tells you they are false, and also he framed his brother and got him accused for the murder of the eldest one ,  he accuse Haromont of doing excactly what he does (manipulating people with lies) black mailing one of the proving fighters and lying to the other one so they both dont fight , there is no honesty there ,he s an hypocrite bastard

Of the two, I think Harrowmont is the more honest.  I couldn't catch him in a lie.  He generally seems to care about the realm, and the traditions of the dwarves.  Bhelen, on the other hand, is a power hungry SOB who lies, cheats, murders, and even asks YOU to murder in order to get HIM power.  He probably killed his father, quite possibly set up his brother.  He's a bad bad man.  Which is why, on my second run through, I decided to put him on the throne.  At least he's a STRONG ruler.  And as Gray Wardens do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn I figured a strong ruler who'd help wipe out the Darkspawn beats a weak ruler who can't get anything done.  If it wasn't for that, though, I'd've supported Harrowmont again.

[Roxlimn]

Bhelen was nowhere near Endrin when he died. It's far more possible that Harrowmont killed Endrin (and no, just because you can't catch Harrowmont in a lie doesn't mean he doesn't do it). I didn't need to go to the Shaperate to know that the documents were forged. Bhelen and Vartag's behavior regarding the documents clearly said it.



I don't mind people who lie, but I mind people who lie to ME, especially if I'm supporting their bid for the throne. Bhelen doesn't hide the fact that the documents could be (and probably are) questionable in nature - or at least he doesn't really put his back into it, so that's pretty much the same thing.



Harrowmont looks and sounds completely and absolutely squeaky-clean. He's obviously lying - you can't get that far in Orzammar without a little skullduggery, but he doesn't trust you far enough to tell you. Even if he were completely honest, he obviously doesn't have the power to hold Orzammar together, which is more important. A tyrant may renege on his promises, but he is, at least, predictable and powerful. As long as it's good for him to support you, he will - and he'll have the means to do so.



An honest (presumably) but weak king may want to honor your agreement as much as he can, but he may not be able to anyway, because he's too weak to get troops to follow him. Useless.



Of course, in my first playthrough, I picked Harrrowmont. I was hoping to get Orta eventually to succeed him, and I know Orta is in my pocket. Eliminating both Bhelen and Jarvia removes all the power players in Orzammar, paving the way for me to rule by proxy. I even wanted to recruit Vartag - I could use a second I could "trust." Hehe.



It disappointed me that I didn't get to exercise that option or get the results I wanted in the epilogue.



Orzammar is a kingdom of liars and sneaks. That much is made obvious by the fact that Bhelen is even in contention. I noted that NO ONE ever really talks about how Bhelen supposedly killed his brother and framed the other. I got the impression that it was normal for that to occur in Orzammar politics - nothing really scandalous. In fact, the criers don't even mention it.



Even if Harrowmont were honest, you can't expect to put an honest king to rule over a kingdom of liars and expect to get anywhere. The right guy to lead a kingdom of liars is the best liar, and Bhelen seemed as good as it got.

[Warden Nadina]

I was very surprised with the way things ended after choosing Harrowmont. My instincts leaned his way.

That was definitely a difficult storyline to play through. Props to BioWare for creating that kind of scenario.

[AntiChri5]

The Dwarven situation:

Lost almost all of their Thaigs to the Darkspawn

Illegal for the Casteless to have jobs or join the army because their parents or ancestors broke a law. Which has the unsurprising result of them becoming criminals who violently oppose the institution, Straining the already overtaxed military by forcing them to opress a population which is almost to a man ready to take up arms against them. One look at Jarvia shows the Casteless and Nobles aren't that far from civil war.

Dwarves who go to the Surace no longer dwarves. This can only lead to a hopelessly stagnant culture

Anyone who ends this epic stupidity has my vote. Giving the casteless rights in exchange for military service turns an armed dangerous angry and desperate population within your city into a valuable asset, at last allowing you to push back the darkspawn.

Truth is Orzammer NEEDS a tyrant

Modifié par AntiChri5, 08 décembre 2009 - 04:29 .

[Wolfva2]

Roxlimn wrote...

Bhelen was nowhere near Endrin when he died. It's far more possible that Harrowmont killed Endrin (and no, just because you can't catch Harrowmont in a lie doesn't mean he doesn't do it). I didn't need to go to the Shaperate to know that the documents were forged. Bhelen and Vartag's behavior regarding the documents clearly said it.

I don't mind people who lie, but I mind people who lie to ME, especially if I'm supporting their bid for the throne. Bhelen doesn't hide the fact that the documents could be (and probably are) questionable in nature - or at least he doesn't really put his back into it, so that's pretty much the same thing.

Harrowmont looks and sounds completely and absolutely squeaky-clean. He's obviously lying - you can't get that far in Orzammar without a little skullduggery, but he doesn't trust you far enough to tell you. Even if he were completely honest, he obviously doesn't have the power to hold Orzammar together, which is more important. A tyrant may renege on his promises, but he is, at least, predictable and powerful. As long as it's good for him to support you, he will - and he'll have the means to do so.

An honest (presumably) but weak king may want to honor your agreement as much as he can, but he may not be able to anyway, because he's too weak to get troops to follow him. Useless.

Of course, in my first playthrough, I picked Harrrowmont. I was hoping to get Orta eventually to succeed him, and I know Orta is in my pocket. Eliminating both Bhelen and Jarvia removes all the power players in Orzammar, paving the way for me to rule by proxy. I even wanted to recruit Vartag - I could use a second I could "trust." Hehe.

It disappointed me that I didn't get to exercise that option or get the results I wanted in the epilogue.

Orzammar is a kingdom of liars and sneaks. That much is made obvious by the fact that Bhelen is even in contention. I noted that NO ONE ever really talks about how Bhelen supposedly killed his brother and framed the other. I got the impression that it was normal for that to occur in Orzammar politics - nothing really scandalous. In fact, the criers don't even mention it.

Even if Harrowmont were honest, you can't expect to put an honest king to rule over a kingdom of liars and expect to get anywhere. The right guy to lead a kingdom of liars is the best liar, and Bhelen seemed as good as it got.

Which jsut goes to prove that...
"Short people got no reason

Short people got no reason

Short people got no reason

To live



They got little hands

Little eyes

They walk around

Tellin' great big lies

They got little noses

And tiny little teeth

They wear platform shoes

On their nasty little feet



Well, I don't want no short people

Don't want no short people

Don't want no short people

`Round here"

[DragonRageGT]

Roxlimn wrote...

Bhelen is a stronger king - the right kind of leader for the political situation in Orzammar. For all his talk of honesty and crap, Harrowmont cannot control what his fanatical supporters do and cannot even convince his own relatives to support his bid.

Nice but incompetent doesn't make for a good ruler, folks.

That's exactly what I thought. My first run I went for Harrowmount and was disappointed at the end. This run I started with Bhelen, talked to Harrowmount's steward and started a new quest, Switching Alliances, which let me go until the end of the Anvil quest before I really had to choose and I could still do the Proving before that. Both runs as human noble warrior, same char in fact... hard and NM runs.

Now, I chose Bhelen to give the crown I brought from Caradin and it felt wrong. I reloaded and made the other guy a king. It felt wronger! I had found evidence of Bhelen envolvment in his brother's murder, I know he's a no scrupule cheater and still, I reloaded and made him King again and this time I felt like I had chosen the right guy for the job!

Bhelen is just like my current president, a corrupt and arrogant SOB, but the Economist and the UK Times appointed him as the most popular man on Earth these days. He's definitely the man for the job with 80% approval in our country. He brought us a World Cup (2014) and an Olympic Games (2016) and unlike Robbins said, he didn't need 50 strippers and half kilo of coke for that. He's just too charismatic. A deceiver and lier and charismatic SOB that would make a great dwarf king... just like I expect Bhelen to be. (heh... Lula even looks like a dwarf and drinks like one too!)

[AXidenT Gamer]

Chose Bhelen primarily because he seemed more eager to fight the Blight.

[Aedan_Cousland]

One of the things I love about this game is that it forces you to make tough decisions, and sometimes you end up choosing an option that you might not have gone for initially, or that initially might seem out of character for your toon.

I usually play good characters in RPGs and this one was no exception, but I ended up siding with Bhelen. At first glance it might seem as if Harrowmont is the natural choice if you are playing a good character, but things are not so cut and dry. While Harrowmont is the rightful ruler and by far the more honorable man in his personal life, his policies are bad. He is a staunch traditionalist that wants to maintain the status quo in Orzrammar. That would be disastrous. Dwarven civilization has been in decline for centuries, so obviously something needs to change. The status quo also means that the Dwarves will continue to maintain a rigid caste system where many dwarves are condemned to live as second class citizens, brutally oppressed by the aristocracy and with very little room to better their own situation short of abandoning the deep and living amongst humans on the surface. In this area Harrowmont is also not quite as good a man as he would initially seem, as echoes the opinions of many of the priveleged in viewing the casteless as little more than vermin.

Bhelen in contrast is an evil man who murdered his own family for the crown, but comes of as an enlightened tyrant. He is clearly the more intelligent man of the two, he's got a bit of a populist streak, is marrying a commoner, and wants to reshape Dwarven society to improve the lot of the casteless. He also wants greater contact without the outside world whereas Harrowmont is an isolationist.

I went with Bhelen because while he was an evil man, his rule would benefit Ozrammar in the long run. After all wouldn't Ozrammar last longer against the darkspawn if every Dwarf had a stake in defending it, including the casteless?

I liked Harrowmont but thought he wasn't fit to rule, and couldn't stand Bhelen but thought he'd make a better king.

[Eonassassin]

Heldenbrand wrote...

I would like to know why, from the writers perspective, a dwarven noble or even commoner being declared Paragon with the blessing of another Paragon, cannot become king? I'm not sure why a living Paragon would not immediately usurp that position given their status in dwarven society.  After all, my human noble is able to become King. I'd like to see my dwarf be able to return to power.

I think human noble only gets to become a Prince-Consort (as far as I know) which is not a real king, it just means you are married to the Queen, and as far as dwarven origin goes, Harrowmont will make you an heir to the throne (but then again you still have to get voted in)
Dwarven politics is complicated. 

In my opinion Behlen makes the better king simply because (although he increases his own power) he reduces the laws of the caste system and encourages trade with other people, no matter what nation or group of people you are running, unification and trade always lead to prosperity. 
Harrowmont on the other hand stifles trade and increases caste laws which only further divides the nation. Harrowmont also gives more power to the assembly (as if they didn't have enough) which simply makes everything worse for the common folk. The assembly is obviously full of retards who couldn't come to an agreement on who to put on the throne until a Grey Warden went and found their only living Paragon. 

[Roxlimn]

Actually, I liked Bhelen's policies with the casteless, not because he was "freeing" them or any such romantic notion but because he was using them. Dwarven casteless form a large undercurrent of dwarven society that is rendered completely useless by traditional dwarven policies. It's more than a waste - it's a burden on dwarven society.



Bhelen's plans to "uplift" the casteless by using them as cannon fodder against the darkspawn is both efficient and inspiring - it inspires the casteless to fight darkspawn rather than dwarves, and it puts a hot plate under the seats of the ensconced soldier caste.



The only thing better would be to have given him the Anvil of the Void, except I don't like letting Branka loose in dwarven society because she's a raving lunatic, and there's no telling what a loose cannon like her will do.