91 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

And no offense however not finishing a game because a character you like dies is not a negative toward the game. It is quite the opposite, and sort of makes you a fanboy/girl. I do agree it is an annoyance since you have to level up someone else however what else can they narrative do?

Sure, I just really wasn't digging that game to begin with so the one character I could stand in the cast dieing did sort of kill it off for me. At least with ME, we have choices in the matter. Choices are always nice to have and I'm not against plot-integral deaths but.. I sure hope it balances out in terms of gameplay/story after the fact.

[armass]

Collectors were less of a threat than Saren and Sovereign and their geth. All ME2 showed them having is one ship, one ship which they did all the collecting, one ship which they planned maybe to attack earth. How?!

How could Bioware screw them up with having only one ship, If there were several more i would have taken them more seriously as a threat. And in the end all it took to destroy the said ship was 2 blasts from thannix cannon.

Way to go Bioware.

All we basically did in ME2 main plot was to safe a few human colonies and eliminate a reserve force in the galactic core that could have helped reapers a tiny bit during invasion. With their ONE ship and maybe a half finished human-reaper space terminator.

Modifié par armass, 02 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[Lukertin]

blindchaos wrote...

I'm not sure why people have been saying the Reaper threat has been diminished by ME2. Look at all Harbinger accomplished over the course of that game:

He killed Shepard, granted it didn't stick but it took him/her out of the conflict for two years. Without Shepard's influence the galaxy ignored the Reaper threat, and now seems much less prepared then it could have.

Harbinger was responsible for the killings of entire colonies of humans and as a consequence created some political instability among humans in the Traverse and the Alliance.

Then there was the plague on Omega, generating anti-human sentiments while also showing that they can make a plague that is deadly to almost all civilized alien races.

Lastly, all of Arrival. The Reapers might be delayed up to a year but at the cost of weakening Humans yet again with a conflict with the Batarians, not to mention if Shepard is detained for the Trial. The reapers have accomplished this with apparently minimal losses, Harbinger showed no anger at losing the Collectors as a resource, and only used them because they were in dark space.

Frankly this all seems more damaging then anything sovereign accomplished. The galaxy is clearly unprepared for the Reaper invasion, when they finally do make their entrance i expect a lot of chaos amongst the various races.

Sovereign's accomplishment:
Indoctrinating the entire Rachni race, destablizing the Council, forcing the Council to uplift the Krogan to combat the Rachni which resulted in the Krogan Rebellions, which lead to the inclusion of the Turian Hierarchy into the Council to quell the Krogan threat combined with the Salarian genophage.  Results: millions of dead sentients, and the utter decimation of two races (Krogan, Rachni) which would have served as huge deterrents to a Reaper invasion had things progressed under more favorable conditions.

Splintering the Geth, which led the rest of the galaxy into thinking the entire Geth forces are a threat to the existence of organic species; indoctrinating Saren enabling him to destroy the Citadel Fleet, which led to humanity entering Council politics and destablizing galactic government.

Modifié par Lukertin, 02 avril 2011 - 09:31 .

[blindchaos]

Lukertin wrote...

Sovereign's accomplishment:
Indoctrinating the entire Rachni race, destablizing the Council, forcing the Council to uplift the Krogan to combat the Rachni which resulted in the Krogan Rebellions, which lead to the inclusion of the Turian Hierarchy into the Council to quell the Krogan threat combined with the Salarian genophage.  Results: millions of dead sentients, and the utter decimation of two races (Krogan, Rachni) which would have served as huge deterrents to a Reaper invasion had things progressed under more favorable conditions.

Splintering the Geth, which led the rest of the galaxy into thinking the entire Geth forces are a threat to the existence of organic species; indoctrinating Saren enabling him to destroy the Citadel Fleet, which led to humanity entering Council politics and destablizing galactic government.

That's a good point about the Rachni Wars i forgot that Soverign did that.  However by starting the Rachni wars and indicrectly the Krogan Rebellion, hasn't it also strengthened the galaxy.  The Turians were given a large amount of power for their part in the rebellions, and they have channled that into their military.  While the Krogan have been diminished by the Genophage they could never have opposed the Reapers if they had not been uplifted. 

While both wars were bloody, they introduced two new races that could contribute against the Reapers.  Also Sovereign then went on to lose control of the Rachni in Noveria, either turning the Rachni against the Reapers, or having the last of them destroyed.

I completely agree with you on the Geth front, however and apologize for not mentioning it. 

[Lukertin]

Strength is an illusion, if the Rachni were peaceful with the Council (or a part of it, even), and the Krogan in a similar position, the Council would be two or three times as powerful as it is now.

For perspective:
The Rachni Wars occurred in 1 CE, and last roughly 3 centuries. Four centuries later the Krogan rebel and it takes a hundred years to quell the rebellion. What if those wars never took place? 400 years of peaceful development unravaged by devastating war, one very powerful civilization that wasn't completely wiped out, and another civilization that could have been very powerful in its own right if left to develop on its own (possible outcome suggested by Mordin had the salarians left them alone).

Sovereign did more to make sure the Citadel races never got too powerful, Harbinger via the Collectors barely anything except kidnap aliens every now and then.

Modifié par Lukertin, 02 avril 2011 - 10:32 .

[Leonia]

blindchaos wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

Sovereign's accomplishment:
Indoctrinating the entire Rachni race, destablizing the Council, forcing the Council to uplift the Krogan to combat the Rachni which resulted in the Krogan Rebellions, which lead to the inclusion of the Turian Hierarchy into the Council to quell the Krogan threat combined with the Salarian genophage.  Results: millions of dead sentients, and the utter decimation of two races (Krogan, Rachni) which would have served as huge deterrents to a Reaper invasion had things progressed under more favorable conditions.

Splintering the Geth, which led the rest of the galaxy into thinking the entire Geth forces are a threat to the existence of organic species; indoctrinating Saren enabling him to destroy the Citadel Fleet, which led to humanity entering Council politics and destablizing galactic government.

That's a good point about the Rachni Wars i forgot that Soverign did that.  However by starting the Rachni wars and indicrectly the Krogan Rebellion, hasn't it also strengthened the galaxy.  The Turians were given a large amount of power for their part in the rebellions, and they have channled that into their military.  While the Krogan have been diminished by the Genophage they could never have opposed the Reapers if they had not been uplifted. 

While both wars were bloody, they introduced two new races that could contribute against the Reapers.  Also Sovereign then went on to lose control of the Rachni in Noveria, either turning the Rachni against the Reapers, or having the last of them destroyed.

I completely agree with you on the Geth front, however and apologize for not mentioning it. 

Sounds like Sovereign and the Reapers were trying to manipulate natural selection. They got rid of the "weaker" races (rachni and krogan) in favour of stronger ones. It seems to me that Sovereign was just trying to figure out which race would be the strongest and worthy of turning into new Reapers at the turn of the 50,000 year cycle. Clearly humans were at the top of the pyramid after the Battle of the Citadel, whereas turians were probably in the same position before Saren "failed". Maybe Sovereign was simply looking for the most worthy adversary so that
the Reapers would know which homeworld to go after first.

But it does put things in perspective, doesn't it? Especially if you compare what Sovereign has accomplished on his own to what Harbinger has done so far.  A whole fleet of ships/beings that are capable of that much foresight and manipulation will be dangerous indeed.

[Nathan Redgrave]

hex23 wrote...

I might be in the minority but I feel like the Reapers aren't as.....let's say "intimidating" as they were in "ME1".

I prefer "ME2" as a game but Sovereign is 1000x better than Harbinger.

Of course he is. Because we've actually seen Sovereign. That kind of makes him seem more threatening, don'tchaknow.

Seriously, though. One two-dimensional evil force versus another two-dimensional evil force. It's like saying the first slice of pizza you ate was better than the second slice, even though they're from the same damn pie.

[Lukertin]

leonia42 wrote...
Sounds like Sovereign and the Reapers were trying to manipulate natural selection. They got rid of the "weaker" races (rachni and krogan) in favour of stronger ones.

Um..no

[blacqout]

leonia42 wrote...

The thing is, with the Suicide Mission, if you WANT the extra drama feel free to let some team-mates die. For those of who DON'T want that, we're going to try our damndest to not lose anyone. There's a choice there and I'm glad the devs gave it to us instead of saying "Ok, choose the six companions you want to live after this mission" . They could have railroaded us there despite designing an ENTIRE game around "gather and gain the loyalty of these important people" and they chose not to do that.

I lost Tali on my first trip through the SM and while I'm not a huge Tali fan it hit me pretty hard because she was a returning character from ME1. Every time I load up Dragon Age 2 I am met with unstable companions and a grim, dark ending..I don't mind if Mass Effect is dark and dangerous but I don't want the choice of who survives and dies to be taken away from me either. Even with Virmire we got to choose the lesser of two evils.

Living through the Suicide Mission with as much of your squad as possible should feel like a huge moment of relief, as you know, the whole point of ME2 was to build your squad. Losing anyone should hit hard but for those who didn't lose anyone (I did learn from my first playthrough experience), it wasn't any less of a dramatic experience.

Sorry to be sort off-topic-ish but felt like Cheez's points were worth defending.

The problem is that the 100 percent happy ending seems to be the default option if you play the game properly. If you want people to die - if you want that additional drama - you're forced into going in knowingly unprepared, by not playing major parts of the game.

You shouldn't have to plan for additional drama while playing a story-driven game. Especially not when the game is about embarking on something referred to as "Suicide Mission".

I get that some people have had hard lives, but this attitude is more than a little selfish.

[Nathan Redgrave]

If you "play the game properly" you still might wind up losing your ship's yeoman and crew in favor of bolstering squad loyalty prior to the Suicide Mission, mind you, assuming you're playing blind. You only really know to get that out of the way before a specific event if you know that ahead of time.

Incidentally, the whole "suicide mission" tagline was PROVE THEM WRONG, wasn't it? If you expected mandatory deaths going in, you didn't read the box. Which is entirely your bad, now, isn't it?

[Anacronian Stryx]

leonia42 wrote...

Sounds like Sovereign and the Reapers were trying to manipulate natural selection. They got rid of the "weaker" races (rachni and krogan) in favour of stronger ones. It seems to me that Sovereign was just trying to figure out which race would be the strongest and worthy of turning into new Reapers at the turn of the 50,000 year cycle.

I agree with you premises - That Sovereign manipulated event's to suit there needs for the next harvest - but i don't agree on your conclusions.

If we look at what we know about reapers - They want species that develop along the the lines they have put forth, Using the Citadel, Using Mass relays, Developing technology based on mass effect tech - (let's call this the Reaper doctrine to keep it short).

Using that and then looking at the Rachni wars we have to ask ourselves - What was the point of them?.

Well it seems obvious that the races at the citadel are the ones that the reapers wants to advance, After all they are doing everything correctly according to what the reapers wants, So why start a potentially devastating war against them though the Rachni?

Well perhaps it's not at all about the citadel races and more about the nature of the Rachni, I'm speculating here but i don't think they fit in the  Reaper doctrine at all, I don't think the Rachni use mass effect technology in any way or form - they are outlines of the doctrine and therefore a threat to it.

After all why start a potentially devastating war against the council races that is doing everything right according to the reapers plans?

It seems more likely to me that the war was started to wipe out the Rachni - Then why indoctrinate the Rachni to start a war, Wouldn't it be easier to just have the council races attack?

Because if the war goes badly to the point where the Rachni threatens the survival of the council races(which is the next harvest) then Sovereign can use it's influence over the Rachni to halt their advance, But luckily(for the reapers) an even better opportunity presented it self - The Krogans - who might be strong and fierce in battle and definitely a threat, But ain't the best prospects to develop and advance mass effect technology and therefore useless to the Reapers.

So a simple plan emerges, Have the Krogans wipe out the Rachni and later have the Krogans neutered to the point where they are irrelevant, As Machiavellian plans goes it's one of the better.

But the conclusion i was trying to reach though all my meandering sidetracking was that i don't think the Rachni and Krogan was "removed" because they were weak, They were removed because they were strong and a threat. 

[blacqout]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

If you "play the game properly" you still might wind up losing your ship's yeoman and crew in favor of bolstering squad loyalty prior to the Suicide Mission, mind you, assuming you're playing blind. You only really know to get that out of the way before a specific event if you know that ahead of time.

Incidentally, the whole "suicide mission" tagline was PROVE THEM WRONG, wasn't it? If you expected mandatory deaths going in, you didn't read the box. Which is entirely your bad, now, isn't it?

I managed to get everyone out alive with precisely zero knowledge of the game prior to putting it in my xbox, so i think you're overestimating how difficult it is to do... though i'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that i'm simply a genius. 

I'm not sure what your second point is, really. The game was billed as being totally winnable... that doesn't make it any less disappointing that it worked that way.

Modifié par blacqout, 02 avril 2011 - 11:50 .

[Leonia]

Interesting ideas, Anacronian. I hadn't considered that neither race use Mass Effect fields/technology..actually, the krogan did, didn't they? They had colonies and space travel, can't remember for sure one way or the other with th Rachni though. Strength or weakness probably wasn't the issue.. the issue would have been them falling outside the railroad tracks placed by the Reapers and the Reapers can't handle unpredictability. I don't think either the rachni or krogan were exactly pinnacles of evolution that really threatened the Reapers, maybe they would have if given enough time to fully evolve though. And they both had incredibly fast reproduction and long life spans. Hm, don't really have a point here, just mulling over some of the points in your post.

Thanks for giving me more to think about.

Modifié par leonia42, 02 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[Lukertin]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
I agree with you premises - That Sovereign manipulated event's to suit there needs for the next harvest - but i don't agree on your conclusions.

If we look at what we know about reapers - They want species that develop along the the lines they have put forth, Using the Citadel, Using Mass relays, Developing technology based on mass effect tech - (let's call this the Reaper doctrine to keep it short).

That's not what they want.  They force species to develop along the lines they put forth.  They impose order on the chaos of organic evolution, it has nothing to do with what species they 'want'.  You assume the Reapers have some goal which is so simple as to be distilled to "The Reapers want to harvest species that develop mass effect technology" when it is stated that you will never understand the motivations of the Reapers nor is it ever stated that the Reapers even care about which species they harvest, only that they have sufficient biomass that a galaxy-spanning civilization could present.

Using that and then looking at the Rachni wars we have to ask ourselves - What was the point of them?.

Well it seems obvious that the races at the citadel are the ones that the reapers wants to advance, After all they are doing everything correctly according to what the reapers wants, So why start a potentially devastating war against them though the Rachni?

Well perhaps it's not at all about the citadel races and more about the nature of the Rachni, I'm speculating here but i don't think they fit in the  Reaper doctrine at all, I don't think the Rachni use mass effect technology in any way or form - they are outlines of the doctrine and therefore a threat to it.

Yes, they do use mass effect technology.  They were discovered by Council ships activating a mass relay, and the Rachni were sending ships around space finding mass relays in their territory to lock them down, clearly suggesting that they were aware of the technology to the point that they understood how it functioned--which further suggests they used the technology.

Combined with the fact that the Rachni had biotic ability (http://masseffect.wi...i_Brood_Warrior) there is no evidence suggesting they did not develop mass effect technology.

After all why start a potentially devastating war against the council races that is doing everything right according to the reapers plans?

It seems more likely to me that the war was started to wipe out the Rachni - Then why indoctrinate the Rachni to start a war, Wouldn't it be easier to just have the council races attack?

Because if the war goes badly to the point where the Rachni threatens the survival of the council races(which is the next harvest) then Sovereign can use it's influence over the Rachni to halt their advance, But luckily(for the reapers) an even better opportunity presented it self - The Krogans - who might be strong and fierce in battle and definitely a threat, But ain't the best prospects to develop and advance mass effect technology and therefore useless to the Reapers.

It weakens them.  Makes it easier to defeat them.  The simplest answer, and it makes more sense than assuming Sovereign is some clairvoyant being who can predict how entire civilizations react down to minutiae of "Wow we are losing this war, let's uplift these primitive people who destroyed their own homeworld in a nuclear war, they're our only chance of survival".  Either the Rachni lose, and the Council is considerably weaker than it could be--allowing Reapers to come in and sweep them easier than if there was no war, or the Rachni win-- allowing Reapers to come in and beat a race that is already indoctrinated.  It is a win-win sccenario.

So a simple plan emerges, Have the Krogans wipe out the Rachni and later have the Krogans neutered to the point where they are irrelevant, As Machiavellian plans goes it's one of the better.

That's a moronic plan.  When the Rachni War started, the Krogans had turned their homeworld into a nuclear wasteland and nobody knew they even existed.  Pretending Sovereign knew about the Krogan is like imparting the logic behind the Star Wars prequel storyline to Mass Effect.

Modifié par Lukertin, 02 avril 2011 - 12:17 .

[Schattenkeil]

I must say I don't really see a difference. In Mass Effect there was still this glimpse of doubt. What if the reapers are actually just a convenient invention by Saren? Until I reached Ilos.

If I remember the conversation with Sovereign on VIrmire. It was just hilarious. I was about to blow up a base of his indoctrinated slave and repeated this pretty transparent indoctrination scheme: We are endless, above you understanding (etc. etc.) you are all doomed. If that were so he would obviously not bother talking to me. Whatever.

I've always seen convincing the people of the reaper threat the bigger challange than the reaper threat itself.

So I am not sure how you would make them appear more powerful. It wouldn't be exactly helpful if they were actually invincible. The only thing I could imagine is that more people might turn out to be reaper agents, including crew members. Tali might be a reaper agent, for example...

Well, ok , it did change a bit... in Mass Effect I fought a fight against one reaper's "spirit" on the citadel, but it took the entire fleet to gun it down. In Mass Effect 2 I gunned down a reaper with a single, lousy sniper rifle.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 02 avril 2011 - 12:34 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

[quote]Lukertin wrote...

[quote]Anacronian Stryx wrote...
I agree with you premises - That Sovereign manipulated event's to suit there needs for the next harvest - but i don't agree on your conclusions.

If we look at what we know about reapers - They want species that develop along the the lines they have put forth, Using the Citadel, Using Mass relays, Developing technology based on mass effect tech - (let's call this the Reaper doctrine to keep it short).[/quote]
That's not what they want.  They force species to develop along the lines they put forth.  They impose order on the chaos of organic evolution, it has nothing to do with what species they 'want'. 
 You assume the Reapers have some goal which is so simple as to be distilled to "The Reapers want to harvest species that develop mass effect technology" when it is stated that you will never understand the motivations of the Reapers nor is it ever stated that the Reapers even care about which species they harvest, only that they have sufficient biomass that a galaxy-spanning civilization could present.
[/quote] Oh why even speculate then, we will never understand what the reapers are doing because it's beyond human comprehension... right.

 Sovereign :"By using it [mass relay technology] your society develops along the paths we desire."
 
So they want a species to develop in a specific way because..what they don't want to harvest them..actually for no reason at all, That's brilliant - oh i guess were back to the point where we will never understand what the reapers are actually doing.
[quote]
[quote]Using that and then looking at the Rachni wars we have to ask ourselves - What was the point of them?.

Well it seems obvious that the races at the citadel are the ones that the reapers wants to advance, After all they are doing everything correctly according to what the reapers wants, So why start a potentially devastating war against them though the Rachni?

Well perhaps it's not at all about the citadel races and more about the nature of the Rachni, I'm speculating here but i don't think they fit in the  Reaper doctrine at all, I don't think the Rachni use mass effect technology in any way or form - they are outlines of the doctrine and therefore a threat to it.[/quote]
Yes, they do use mass effect technology.  They were discovered by Council ships activating a mass relay, and the Rachni were sending ships around space finding mass relays in their territory to lock them down, clearly suggesting that they were aware of the technology to the point that they understood how it functioned--which further suggests they used the technology.
[/quote]

The Rachni war started when salarians opened a relay into Rachni space - so of cause the Rachni are going to hunt down the locations of the relays, The relays where a location from where possible enemies could come from - actually the fact that they had to search for the gates and didn't already know their location lends more credence to the point that they weren't using them.

And yes the Rachni have ships but i will still suggest that it's possible that we don't know what propels them, It's even possible that the Rachni developed some other form of spaceflight that isn't based on the the mass effect technology.
[quote]
Combined with the fact that the Rachni had biotic ability (http://masseffect.wi...i_Brood_Warrior) there is no evidence suggesting they did not develop mass effect technology.



[/quote]Have you thought that the Rachni might be natural Biotics like the Asari?..i guess not.[quote]

[quote]After all why start a potentially devastating war against the council races that is doing everything right according to the reapers plans?

It seems more likely to me that the war was started to wipe out the Rachni - Then why indoctrinate the Rachni to start a war, Wouldn't it be easier to just have the council races attack?

Because if the war goes badly to the point where the Rachni threatens the survival of the council races(which is the next harvest) then Sovereign can use it's influence over the Rachni to halt their advance, But luckily(for the reapers) an even better opportunity presented it self - The Krogans - who might be strong and fierce in battle and definitely a threat, But ain't the best prospects to develop and advance mass effect technology and therefore useless to the Reapers.[/quote]


It weakens them.  Makes it easier to defeat them.  The simplest answer, and it makes more sense than assuming Sovereign is some clairvoyant being who can predict how entire civilizations react down to minutiae of "Wow we are losing this war,
let's uplift these primitive people who destroyed their own homeworld in a nuclear war, they're our only chance of survival".

[/quote] The Rachni wars took 300 years, You don't have to be Clairvoyant to just observe how the wind is blowing, Just observe the god damn war and if your indoctrinated minions(Rachni) are in the process of launching a devastating assault that would completely cripple the citadel races then just stop them, They are indoctrinated after all.

The Salarians uplifted the Krogans(presumably on their own initiative) I never said that Sovereign had any involvement in that, In fact i said a opportunity presented it self... Reading and comprehension skill you know. 
[quote]
Either the Rachni lose, and the Council is considerably weaker than it could be--allowing Reapers to come in and sweep them easier than if there was no war, or the Rachni win-- allowing Reapers to come in and beat a race that is already indoctrinated.  It is a win-win sccenario.
[/quote]
[/quote]
A war might weaken a people in the short term but over time it will strengthen a civilization, Like an anthill getting kicked over getting rebuild stronger, The Rachni war happened over 2000 years before the next harvest (we know this from Chorbins mail) so there is no way that the council will come out weaker from this if they survive.
[quote]





[quote]So a simple plan emerges, Have the Krogans wipe out the Rachni and later have the Krogans neutered to the point where they are irrelevant, As Machiavellian plans goes it's one of the better.[/quote]
That's a moronic plan. 




[/quote]Ahh thank you.[quote]
 When the Rachni War started, the Krogans had turned their homeworld into a nuclear wasteland and nobody knew they even existed. 
 Pretending Sovereign knew about the Krogan is like imparting the logic behind the Star Wars prequel storyline to Mass Effect.
[/quote]
See this is were it would be helpful to you if you could actually read, I said Because if the war goes badly to the point where the Rachni threatens the survival of the council races(which is the next harvest) then Sovereign can use it's influence over the Rachni to halt their advance, But luckily(for the reapers) an even better opportunity presented it self - The Krogans - Now does this imply that Sovereign knew about the Krogans at the beginning of the war?

Edit : Quotes.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 02 avril 2011 - 01:47 .

[Lukertin]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
 Sovereign :"By using it [mass relay technology] your society develops along the paths we desire."
 
So they want a species to develop in a specific way because..what they don't want to harvest them..actually for no reason at all, That's brilliant - oh i guess were back to the point where we will never understand what the reapers are actually doing.

Yes they want them to develop along those lines to make their harvesting easier, it isn't a requirement of harvesting like you make it out to be.

The Rachni war started when salarians opened a relay into Rachni space - so of cause the Rachni are going to hunt down the locations of the relays, The relays where a location from where possible enemies could come from - actually the fact that they had to search for the gates and didn't already know their location lends more credence to the point that they weren't using them.

Technically the only relay they really hunted down was the Mu Relay, which was lost.

And yes the Rachni have ships but i will still suggest that it's possible that we don't know what propels them, It's even possible that the Rachni developed some other form of spaceflight that isn't based on the the mass effect technology.
Have you thought that the Rachni might be natural Biotics like the Asari?..i guess not.

Possible, but unlikely.  Yea, intelligent species with natural biotics go "derp how does they work?" and never investigates biotics, mass effect fields, or eezo as a result.

The Rachni wars took 300 years, You don't have to be Clairvoyant to just observe how the wind is blowing, Just observe the god damn war and if your indoctrinated minions(Rachni) are in the process of launching a devastating assault that would completely cripple the citadel races then just stop them, They are indoctrinated after all.

LMAO so the citadel races losing the war until the Krogan can breed out enough babies at a level high enough to form an army isn't enough?

A war might weaken a people in the short term but over time it will strengthen a civilization, Like an anthill getting kicked over getting rebuild stronger, The Rachni war happened over 2000 years before the next harvest (we know this from Chorbins mail) so there is no way that the council will come out weaker from this if they survive.

War will never strengthen a civilization, especially a war carried out for no purpose whatsoever.  The loss of life and resources that could have been repurposed means that a civilization entering a war will always be worse off than the same civilization that never entered the war.

See this is were it would be helpful to you if you could actually read, I said Because if the war goes badly to the point where the Rachni threatens the survival of the council races(which is the next harvest) then Sovereign can use it's influence over the Rachni to halt their advance, But luckily(for the reapers) an even better opportunity presented it self - The Krogans - Now does this imply that Sovereign knew about the Krogans at the beginning of the war?

Because the war did go badly to the point where the Rachni threatened the survival of the Citadel.  The Salarians had to find the Krogan, transplant them to another world, make them breed a couple generations, then develop weapons for the Krogan, teach them space combat, and send them against the Rachni.  That can clearly be done in a day.

Modifié par Lukertin, 02 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Lukertin wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
Sovereign :"By using it [mass relay technology] your society develops along the paths we desire."

So they want a species to develop in a specific way because..what they don't want to harvest them..actually for no reason at all, That's brilliant - oh i guess were back to the point where we will never understand what the reapers are actually doing.

Yes they want them to develop along those lines to make their harvesting easier, it isn't a requirement of harvesting like you make it out to be.

If it's not a requirement then why go through all that trouble at all???
Why build : Mass Relays in the thousands and the citadel if every warm body will do?
Hell why even bother with advanced civilizations when every race in stone age will suffice hell they will be much easier to harvest and offer much less resistance?
No the Reapers Must have a need for specifically advanced civilizations that utilize and develop the *gifts* they left behind or else there is absolutely no point to Mass Effect at all.

The Rachni wars took 300 years, You don't have to be Clairvoyant to just observe how the wind is blowing, Just observe the god damn war and if your indoctrinated minions(Rachni) are in the process of launching a devastating assault that would completely cripple the citadel races then just stop them, They are indoctrinated after all.

LMAO so the citadel races losing the war until the Krogan can breed out enough babies at a level high enough to form an army isn't enough?

I have honestly tried for several minutes to understand what you are trying to say here but it simply makes no sense to me at all.

A war might weaken a people in the short term but over time it will strengthen a civilization, Like an anthill getting kicked over getting rebuild stronger, The Rachni war happened over 2000 years before the next harvest (we know this from Chorbins mail) so there is no way that the council will come out weaker from this if they survive.

War will never strengthen a civilization, especially a war carried out for no purpose whatsoever. The loss of life and resources that could have been repurposed means that a civilization entering a war will always be worse off than the same civilization that never entered the war.

Human History completely disagree with you here.

See this is were it would be helpful to you if you could actually read, I said Because if the war goes badly to the point where the Rachni threatens the survival of the council races(which is the next harvest) then Sovereign can use it's influence over the Rachni to halt their advance, But luckily(for the reapers) an even better opportunity presented it self - The Krogans - Now does this imply that Sovereign knew about the Krogans at the beginning of the war?

Because the war did go badly to the point where the Rachni threatened the survival of the Citadel. The Salarians had to find the Krogan, transplant them to another world, make them breed a couple generations, then develop weapons for the Krogan, teach them space combat, and send them against the Rachni. That can clearly be done in a day.

Yes because i clearly said it could be done in a day..

[Lukertin]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...
If it's not a requirement then why go through all that trouble at all???
Why build : Mass Relays in the thousands and the citadel if every warm body will do?
Hell why even bother with advanced civilizations when every race in stone age will suffice hell they will be much easier to harvest and offer much less resistance?
No the Reapers Must have a need for specifically advanced civilizations that utilize and develop the *gifts* they left behind or else there is absolutely no point to Mass Effect at all.

Because only a galaxy-spanning race will constitute sufficient biomass for the Reapers to melt down.  We already saw one of the reasons they harvest organic life is to make a Reaper out of them.  Derp.

I have honestly tried for several minutes to understand what you are trying to say here but it simply makes no sense to me at all.

Your original point makes no sense.  The Rachni were winning the war against the Citadel at all points in time until the Krogan arrived on the scene.  Thus, your argument is invalid.  Capisce?

War will never strengthen a civilization, especially a war carried out for no purpose whatsoever. The loss of life and resources that could have been repurposed means that a civilization entering a war will always be worse off than the same civilization that never entered the war.

Human History completely disagree with you here.

No it doesn't.  Examples of war carried out for no purpose whatsoever (e.g., World War I, every war going on over religion, political ideology, etc).  Are you honestly suggesting that if these wars did not take place the world would be worse off than it is now?  I'm not talking situations where a stronger civilization waged war on a weaker civilization to secure farmland or gold mines or whatever, those wars have a purpose and generally do lead to a stronger civilization (e.g. Rome; but in comparison look at colonization of the Americas).  And that doesn't diminish the fact that diplomacy to solve whatever issues are on hand are a much better solution than waging all-out war, and do not result in the subjugation of entire civilizations into slavery or extinction.  Unless you actually think those things are good for humanity.  Additionally, almost every war carried out pre-20th Century has resulted in lost knowledge.  The Greeks far surpassed the Romans in medical and mathematical knowledge--all of it, lost.  The Romans far surpassed the Germans in engineering and scientific knowledge--all of it, lost.  Library of Alexandria housed almost all of the most important knowledge known in the Mediterranean and it gets burned down during a war.  Every time a dynasty was overran in China, pockets of scientific and cultural knowledge was destroyed.  Humanity is strengthened by war my ass.

Yes because i clearly said it could be done in a day.

You said the Rachni War never threatened the Citadel races.  Or at least implied it, because "had it done so, Sovereign would have just pulled the Rachni back".  Except the Rachni were never pulled back.  And the Citadel races were completely out of options that they were forced to play God with a race that wasn't ready for it, with absolutely no thought to the long term consequences because they were facing short term annihilation.

Modifié par Lukertin, 02 avril 2011 - 07:57 .

[vx SmOkEy xv]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The fact that you care so much about your squad is precisely why you should be forced to lose some of them on the Suicide Mission.

It increases the drama, preserves the threat of the villains, and brings the conflict closer to home.

Do you not understand?

Some of us play video games to escape the real-life drama.

The last thing I want is to fail to protect my team when I was already helpless to stop... ugh, you know what?  Nevermind.  I'm not going to rant about my personal life on a gaming forum.  Screw specific details and sob stories.

Suffice to say, how would you feel if you watched characters you spent possibly 90 hours getting to know suddenly started dropping like flies when someone very close to you had passed away not a week earlier?

Those are not memories I want to relive while I'm trying to enjoy myself.

When people pick up an RPG, it gives them the opportunity to play pretend through a more mature medium.  I can do things in video games that I could never do in real life.  I can build a world the way I want it, where rescue comes for the abandoned and the good guys actually win.  You may want to spin a story like a powerful novel, and you can, but my story is different from yours.

We have all lost someone close. i have lost lots of loved ones. but that does'nt mean i wont enjoy a film with people dying all over the place. Its called moving on.
I hope mass effect 3 had people dying left right and center, even squad members. This will put things in to perspectave. The reapers kill trillions of people every 50,000 years!!!
If you cant handle a close member of your squad dying, then i dont think you should play mass effect in my opinion. I was shocked when i had to leave kaiden on virmire, but moved on and destroyed saren and sovereign!

[AlanC9]

Lukertin wrote...
Because only a galaxy-spanning race will constitute sufficient biomass for the Reapers to melt down.  We already saw one of the reasons they harvest organic life is to make a Reaper out of them.

Nitpick: they don't just need biomass. They need sentient biomass. And apparently other factors are necessary as well.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Lukertin wrote...
Because only a galaxy-spanning race will constitute sufficient biomass for the Reapers to melt down.  We already saw one of the reasons they harvest organic life is to make a Reaper out of them.  Derp.

Humans have a insignificant biomass and they still tried to make a reaper out of humans, Hell galaxy wide i bet you could find a whole host of non-space faring non technological using species that would have tens of thousands the biomass of any of the space faring populations.

No it must be like the game states, The reapers are after races that develop along the path the reapers have set forth, Using the mass relays and the citadel, If it's because they are uncreative and needs other to develop their technology for them nobody can say, But it is what both Sovereign and Vigil stated.

Your original point makes no sense.  The Rachni were winning the war against the Citadel at all points in time until the Krogan arrived on the scene.  Thus, your argument is invalid.  Capisce?

The way i describe the event's is no different than how it's described in game, I only add that if Sovereign observes that his indoctrinated servants(Rachni) are in the process of launching a devastating assault on the council races he(Sovereign) could opt to stop them even if my theory is completely wrong this part is still true - Sovereign did indoctrinate the Rachni, He could make them stop launching attacks if he wanted to.

I really don't see your problem here. 

No it doesn't.  Examples of war carried out for no purpose whatsoever (e.g., World War I, every war going on over religion, political ideology, etc).  Are you honestly suggesting that if these wars did not take place the world would be worse off than it is now?  I'm not talking situations where a stronger civilization waged war on a weaker civilization to secure farmland or gold mines or whatever, those wars have a purpose and generally do lead to a stronger civilization (e.g. Rome; but in comparison look at colonization of the Americas).  And that doesn't diminish the fact that diplomacy to solve whatever issues are on hand are a much better solution than waging all-out war, and do not result in the subjugation of entire civilizations into slavery or extinction.  Unless you actually think those things are good for humanity.

You're misinterpreting stronger = God for humanity.
Look at your own example World War I - The biggest winner in that war was USA, It was the victory that propelled Northern America into being the world leader, A position the USA have held until this day.
The war acted as an resurgence of pretty much every aspect of American society from economic to military, Hell the war was such a boost that even with the great depression of the thirties America still held on to it's position as world leader.
And this was as you stated a war with no purpose.

You said the Rachni War never threatened the Citadel races.  Or at least implied it, because "had it done so, Sovereign would have just pulled the Rachni back".  Except the Rachni were never pulled back. 

The war went on for 80 years without the Krogan, Is there any indication of the Rachni ever taking the citadel or one of the council races homeworlds? - no.
The war might had gone bad but not to the point of catastrophe.
As you yourself point out :... Salarians had to find the Krogan, transplant them to another world, make them breed a couple generations, then develop weapons for the Krogan, teach them space combat, and send them against the Rachni...
So clearly the "war going bad" was based on long term projections because you don't just do all that in a day.

And the Citadel races were completely out of options that they were forced to play God with a race that wasn't ready for it, with absolutely no thought to the long term consequences because they were facing short term annihilation.

Yes like i said in my original post a opportunity presented it self so Sovereign didn't have to stop the Rachni.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 02 avril 2011 - 08:56 .