26 réponses à ce sujet

[DinoCrisisFan]

Because almost immediately after you defeat the zombified Saren, Sovereigns shields go down. Do you think the two events are related?

[Manic Sheep]

Not sure, I think so. It could just be that it would be really anti climatic if you defeated saren husk and then had to wait while the fleet finished off sov. Then again he did scream and harby seems to be controlling all the collectors thru a proxy (collector general). Perhaps this is to prevent him getting hurt when collectors die?

[Pwener2313]

Of course they are! Why else would it have happened? I think that they were the same per... err... AI. Controlling two bodies.

[Whitestrake]

To my knowledge Sovereign was actively controlling zombie Saren, so when you killed him it BSOD'ed the Reaper, & that's why his shields, & everything else shut down.

[AlexMBrennan]

I doubt it - correlation does not imply causation (insert witty xkcd comic here).

Besides, Google Chrome (the web browser) renders each in isolated processes (to prevent a single crashed rendering process from crashing the browser) so I'm pretty sure that the Reapers would come up with something similar.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 02 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[rayvioletta]

I think it was like Harbinger's "assuming direct control" where Sovereign took direct control of Saren's husk, destroying the husk either destroyed Sovereign's conciousness completely (unlikely, since Harbinger survives his hosts death multiple times) or sent some kind of feedback to the source which disrupted his defences leaving him vulnerable long enough to be destroyed

[DragonIroh001]

rayvioletta wrote...

I think it was like Harbinger's "assuming direct control" where Sovereign took direct control of Saren's husk, destroying the husk either destroyed Sovereign's conciousness completely (unlikely, since Harbinger survives his hosts death multiple times) or sent some kind of feedback to the source which disrupted his defences leaving him vulnerable long enough to be destroyed

Harbinger uses the collector general as a go-between, as shown when we first fight him.

I assume that destroying the general when Harbinger is in control, would probably do the same thing to him as Husk Saren death was to Sovereign.

[AlexMBrennan]

So you're saying that Sovereign loves the thrill of danger and deliberately doesn't used a frozen $alien in a stasis pod as a go-between (or a box that's not directly connected to critical things like weapons & shields)? There's a reason we use fuses and such.

[Renegade133]

i think harbringer lets go cause he does say releasing control

[anirban89]

When you first encounter Sovereign on Virmire, the way it delivers its dialouges say something about it - that the Reapers synthetic. When they encounter a problem, they sit back, relax and try to approach the problem with an open and clear mind. Also note how Sovereign, just like Legion, never speaks of itself as a free-willed individual - "We are each a nation", "We bring order to the chaos of organic evolution"... I mean its always 'we'. All these implies that they are a synthetic life-form.
Now, most of us know and believe in these facts after playing ME-ME2. So most of us may think as below:

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Besides, Google Chrome (the web browser) renders each in isolated processes (to prevent a single crashed rendering process from crashing the browser) so I'm pretty sure that the Reapers would come up with something similar.

But we are missing one key point - The Reapers are both synthetic and organic... (Google Chrome isn't organic)

And therefore, Sovereign even with all its fancy hardware, is still 'flesh-and-blood' (please don't take this literally) under its armor. I think at the final moment when it comes so close to accomplishing its task only to be defeated by one individual, it goes into an 'organic' rage and makes grave mistakes...mistakes like exposing its true nature and ultimately getting defeated by one man. Key point to note here is how its tone changed when it screamed out "I am Sovereign and this station is mine." Notice how the 'we' disappears? Also, speaking of the tone, one can easily perceive rage and anger in its voice.

I basically used 'Occam's Razor' to arrive at the above conlusion.

But actually my favourite theory is a little far-fetched:

When Sovereign at its apex is defeated by one man, and one man alone, it suddenly realizes something new for the first time in its eternal years of existence. The realization might have been something along these lines: that the Reapers, with their uber-advanced technology, and their enlightened philosophies regarding existence, and their nonchalant rejection of individualism (Ref.: "We are each a nation"), were still no match for one specific individual whose only weapon against non-existence was nothing more than his/her 'petty' but indomitable will to exist. This realization might have caused it to question, for the first time, its own belief in its 'eternal existence', a systemic anomaly according to AI standards, and being simply not equipped to process the new data, data that was previously thought by it to be non-existing, it simply 'crashed'.

I think its mainly because of this that when Saren's husk is defeated, Sovereign 'dies'. As everyone remembers, Saren's husk was at that point being controlled by Sovereign. So defeating Saren's husk actually was symbollic of defeating Sovereign itself.

I don't think Harbinger like "Assuming-Control" voodoo was involved in Sovereign's death. I mean, come on guys, please, Sovereign's defeat is much bigger than spraying Harbinger's husks with bullets everytime you encounter the Collectors throughout ME2 (I kinda didn't like that idea, but thats off-topic). Sovereign becomes bigger than itself, bigger than life, during its last moments (kinda Shakespearean...LOL).

Sorry for the damn long post  I know how it feels
But I hope my 2nd 'theory' regarding this topic interests some of you and hoping to get some comments on this

[Elvis_Mazur]

That's a philosophical explanation, but I always take some of the Sovereign's words as lies, because since it has the minds of those that were "processed", it can lie, I think.

[BluSoldier]

I agree with anirban89. But doe that mean that every time you defeat a Harbinger puppet you are "defeating Harbinger? I don't really think s-ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[anirban89]

BluSoldier wrote...

I agree with anirban89. But doe that mean that every time you defeat a Harbinger puppet you are "defeating Harbinger? I don't really think s-ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

I would say, yes, you are defeating Harbinger in some symbolical way and proving him inferior. But Harbinger, unlike Sovereign, doesn't have any deeply held belief about his immortality and absolute superiority. Sovereign's defeat was 'philosophical' and because of a deep personal realization rather than some physical sci-fi phenomenon. But Harbinger has nothing to loose when he is defeated. Hell, he doesn't even have the outlook of Soveriegn. He is merely a puppet in the hands of the Reapers afterall.

[Elvis_Mazur]

You are assuming a lot of things, anirban. Until BW decides to explain that, it still an unexplained mystery.

Shepard died in Harbinger's first attempt (ME2's beginning). It knows Shepard can die again. Maybe that's why it doesn't care if Shepard has an enormous will to survive?

[Seboist]

Of course the defeat of the Husk Saren lead to his destruction. The whole point of him assuming direct control of Saren was to use the body to manually override the Prothean lock of the Citadel and to call in the Reaper fleet. Failing to do this made Sovereign a sitting duck.

[Ice Cold J]

I believe them to be related, but I won't say "of course" because I don't think it's been explicitly stated anywhere by any truly credible source.

[antique_nova]

Renard the Bard wrote...

To my knowledge Sovereign was actively controlling zombie Saren, so when you killed him it BSOD'ed the Reaper, & that's why his shields, & everything else shut down.

wait. your joking right? That means we still have NO IDEA of how strong the Reaper's shields are and that it still takes a crap load of missiles etc to even kill a Reaper without shields. Maybe that's all the lead that Casey needs to make the Reapers nigh invincible! - as Soveriegn actually rammed a Turian frigat or was it a captial ship and destroyed with no evident hull breaches or implications!

[anirban89]

antique_nova wrote...

Renard the Bard wrote...

To my knowledge Sovereign was actively controlling zombie Saren, so when you killed him it BSOD'ed the Reaper, & that's why his shields, & everything else shut down.

wait. your joking right? That means we still have NO IDEA of how strong the Reaper's shields are and that it still takes a crap load of missiles etc to even kill a Reaper without shields. Maybe that's all the lead that Casey needs to make the Reapers nigh invincible! - as Soveriegn actually rammed a Turian frigat or was it a captial ship and destroyed with no evident hull breaches or implications!

My point exactly. Sovereign was too strong to be taken out by sheer force alone. It had to be something internal to Sovereign itself.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'd figured that was supposed to be the implication in the scene, yes.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 11 mai 2011 - 07:20 .

[CeoBohga]

I've an alternative theory for you... though it kind of skirts around some of what was said. At the point Shepard killed Sovereign, Shep had control of the station and most importantly, whether or not the arms were open. There may have still been some Geth around to fight for Sovereign, but given Shep's assault on previous Geth strongholds and his charge up the tower past what one can assume was the bulk of the Geth troops on the station, Sovereign would have realized that his minions would not be regaining control of the station. Sovereign also appeared to have no weaponry to speak of as the only time it commits an act of aggression was to ram through another ship. Being a sentient being of vast intelligence, Sovereign would have realized that it's capture was imminent (close the fraking arms Shepard) which strategically is a far worse outcome than it's destruction as the council races would then have the opportunity to dissect it to learn all of the Reaper's secrets, including possibly how to counteract indoctrination, shield weak points, and since we're talking about a sentient AI, possibly the Reaper's entire history. Strategically, knowing that it's lost the fight and capture was a distinct possibility, it's best hope for the continued survival of the Reapers and their plans were to lower it's shields and let the organic species destroy their bounty while they were still too frenzied from the battle to have that moment of clear thought that says not taking the shot would be ultimately more beneficial. It's kind of like the spy taking a cyanide pill or a captain hitting that self destruct button. Sure, it ruins the individual's day, but it ultimately saves the lives and interests of those they were working for... or at the very least prolongs them.

Now I know there are two points people may contend with this. First, why not just ram through the arms like the turian frigate, and second, why not just get new minions by indoctrinating anyone who tried to study it? For the first point, the station was build by Reapers (or possibly Reaper agents... I don't believe that was explicitly stated), and it was built to last a megaannum if not longer. It would be poor design for it's intended use if it could be significantly damaged by something as relatively small as Sovereign impacting it, especially knowing the organic's tendency to wage war would create a strong likelihood of ships at some point trying to ram or otherwise destroy the station. As for the second point, I realize that proximity indoctrination is still a weapon sovereign could have used to escape, but here we get into risk verses gain. Like those spies who commit suicide, we have the possibility of escape before damaging secrets are learned, but that's just a possibility. It's just as possible that the captures will learn even just hints of secrets and weaknesses before the escape, which even just a hint of information, as we see through the entire story, can be enough to cause serious problems down the road. Destruction of those secrets through suicide really was the best strategic move that Sovereign could have made at that moment in time.

[Renegade133]

Interesting ideas @ ceobohga and anir

[_FLANDERS]

put this way yes.

[Double_02]

Yes

[Drumsmasher]

CeoBohga wrote...

I've an alternative theory for you... though it kind of skirts around some of what was said. At the point Shepard killed Sovereign, Shep had control of the station and most importantly, whether or not the arms were open. There may have still been some Geth around to fight for Sovereign, but given Shep's assault on previous Geth strongholds and his charge up the tower past what one can assume was the bulk of the Geth troops on the station, Sovereign would have realized that his minions would not be regaining control of the station. Sovereign also appeared to have no weaponry to speak of as the only time it commits an act of aggression was to ram through another ship. Being a sentient being of vast intelligence, Sovereign would have realized that it's capture was imminent (close the fraking arms Shepard) which strategically is a far worse outcome than it's destruction as the council races would then have the opportunity to dissect it to learn all of the Reaper's secrets, including possibly how to counteract indoctrination, shield weak points, and since we're talking about a sentient AI, possibly the Reaper's entire history. Strategically, knowing that it's lost the fight and capture was a distinct possibility, it's best hope for the continued survival of the Reapers and their plans were to lower it's shields and let the organic species destroy their bounty while they were still too frenzied from the battle to have that moment of clear thought that says not taking the shot would be ultimately more beneficial. It's kind of like the spy taking a cyanide pill or a captain hitting that self destruct button. Sure, it ruins the individual's day, but it ultimately saves the lives and interests of those they were working for... or at the very least prolongs them.

Now I know there are two points people may contend with this. First, why not just ram through the arms like the turian frigate, and second, why not just get new minions by indoctrinating anyone who tried to study it? For the first point, the station was build by Reapers (or possibly Reaper agents... I don't believe that was explicitly stated), and it was built to last a megaannum if not longer. It would be poor design for it's intended use if it could be significantly damaged by something as relatively small as Sovereign impacting it, especially knowing the organic's tendency to wage war would create a strong likelihood of ships at some point trying to ram or otherwise destroy the station. As for the second point, I realize that proximity indoctrination is still a weapon sovereign could have used to escape, but here we get into risk verses gain. Like those spies who commit suicide, we have the possibility of escape before damaging secrets are learned, but that's just a possibility. It's just as possible that the captures will learn even just hints of secrets and weaknesses before the escape, which even just a hint of information, as we see through the entire story, can be enough to cause serious problems down the road. Destruction of those secrets through suicide really was the best strategic move that Sovereign could have made at that moment in time.

Sounds legit, but Sovereign did have very powerful weaponry. He has guns on each tentacle that can split a ship in half.