21 réponses à ce sujet

[Capt. Kirrahe]

 Blood magic seems to have become one of the central themes in the Dragon Age setting - with almost all maleficar practicing some variety of blood magic. That being the case, I'd like to clear up points of confusion I have regarding the nature of blood magic. 

According to the origins codex on blood magic, "the ancient Tevinters did not originally consider blood magic a school of its own. Rather, they saw it as a means to achieve greater power in any school of magic" and that it was only over time that the Imperium discovered spells that could only be worked through blood. Does this mean that blood magic used only as an alternate means of fueling the more benign spells carries no inherent risk of great evil? 

I suppose the real question is whether or not the use of blood as mana opens the mage up to demonic possession in a way simple lyrium powered magic does not. I read somewhere that it is the only way to tear the veil, but is this intentional or an act brought on by unconscious corruption?

I've seen conflicting codex entries on the provenance of blood magic. Avernus mentions that it was taught by demons, while a codex article mentions two conflicting theories: One naming the old god Dumat and the Elves of Arlathan as possible sources. 

In terms of practice, we could fill two towers with the mages we meet in DAII who end up abominations through blood magic. On the other hand, Merrill appears to practice primal blood magic for nearly a decade with no ill effects, and a mage Hawke seems no worse for wear if he takes up the forbidden school. 

I'd love for this bit of lore to be cleared up a bit more, it would help me understand the choices we can make within the setting. 

Modifié par Capt. Kirrahe, 02 avril 2011 - 07:53 .

[LobselVith8]

There are conflicting stories regarding its inception, but the two most popular are that it was taught by demons or the Old God Dumat. Regarding blood magic, the classification states: "Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

[sammcl]

I got the impression that it was just another power source, you could just cast your normal spells using blood instead of mana if you wanted to. I think Merrill said "There's nothing inherently evil about blood magic, it's magic, like any other." It is however the only way to cast the forbidden spells like mind control and summoning demons. At least that's how I understood it, not all blood magic is evil but all evil magic can only be cast with blood.

[supakillaii]

It's just a way to cast more powerful magic, it's just that you usually get that from consorting with demons, and it's usually used for evil...

[TheBlackBaron]

Basically, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. However, due to the stigma surrounding it from the predominance of Andrastian teachings and the excesses of old Tevinter, most "good" mages won't touch it; the ones that are willing to learn it have already taken the leap to the dark side. That's why all the blood mages you see wind up going nuts or turning into abominations.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 02 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[ToJKa1]

What does it matter whether the mage uses his mana or his blood to fuel the spell? In my understanding the stigma comes from Blood Mages ability to control other people and even infiltrate their dreams trough the Fade (this was in the Blood Mage specialisation description). And the fact some Blood Mages sacrifice people to gain greater power, especially in the ancient Tevinter Imperium. However Blood Magic itself, using ones blood to power spells i do not see as inherently evil, it just allows many evil things to be done.

Also, Jowan. He was not evil. Stupid maybe, but not evil. Nor an Abomination.

Modifié par ToJKa1, 02 avril 2011 - 10:39 .

[Bayz]

Capt. Kirrahe wrote...

 Blood magic seems to have become one of the central themes in the Dragon Age setting - with almost all maleficar practicing some variety of blood magic. That being the case, I'd like to clear up points of confusion I have regarding the nature of blood magic. 

Hmm no the conflicting theories are about who taught
Tevinter Archons Blood Magic. Blood Magic comes from demons any time of the week apparently.

Capt. Kirrahe wrote...

According to the origins codex on blood magic, "the ancient Tevinters did not originally consider blood magic a school of its own. Rather, they saw it as a means to achieve greater power in any school of magic" and that it was only over time that the Imperium discovered spells that could only be worked through blood. Does this mean that blood magic used only as an alternate means of fueling the more benign spells carries no inherent risk of great evil? 

As far ass the wiki goes:

While not inherently evil, the Chantry
strictly forbids the usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually
leads to corruption.

But in examples in game we see that most of the not evil blood mages end up screwing up considerably, willing or not...f it has to do with the practice of blood magic or with Merril\\Jowan\\Orsino...'s personality is up to the player.

Capt. Kirrahe wrote...
I suppose the real question is whether or not the use of blood as mana opens the mage up to demonic possession in a way simple lyrium powered magic does not. I read somewhere that it is the only way to tear the veil, but is this intentional or an act brought on by unconscious corruption?

Simple lyrium powered magic seems to lead to possession and corruption as well. That's why the Harrowing makes sense.

Capt. Kirrahe wrote...

In terms of practice, we could fill two towers with the mages we meet in DAII who end up abominations through blood magic. On the other hand, Merrill appears to practice primal blood magic for nearly a decade with no ill effects, and a mage Hawke seems no worse for wear if he takes up the forbidden school. 

I'd love for this bit of lore to be cleared up a bit more, it would help me understand the choices we can make within the setting. 

Don't forget Avernus and the mage Warden. I think is akin to the standard demon corruption, it affects differently to different individuals,  some of them fall into the corruption (most abominations) some are 50% and can use it without too much trouble in the possession part (Hawke\\Warden, Merril, Jowan) and others can bend demons into submission (Avernus, Tevinter Magisters).

You can be weak and becoome a vessel, be in the middle ground and use as other resource more, or be a complete monster. Any path you take will leave you in ill graces with the Chantry.

[Ealos]

I realised that I don't know if this has been confirmed: can you summon demons (deliberately to control them, that is) without blood magic? You can certainly contact and be possessed by demons without it, but the blood seems to attract them: The only mages I've seen using it are blood mages, but don't know if it's one of the aspects of magic only accessible using blood.

P.S. Depressing nerdity prompts me to point out that all malificar are blood mages by definition.

[Camenae]

I also think it depends in the individual user of blood magic. Like someone said earlier, you might handle it well, or you might not. When you don't handle it well, there are disastrous effects. That's why it's forbidden, because it's difficult if not impossible to know how well someone will handle blood magic until, well, you find it out the hard way. That's why it had to be forbidden across the board.

[LobselVith8]

Ealos wrote...

I realised that I don't know if this has been confirmed: can you summon demons (deliberately to control them, that is) without blood magic? You can certainly contact and be possessed by demons without it, but the blood seems to attract them: The only mages I've seen using it are blood mages, but don't know if it's one of the aspects of magic only accessible using blood.

P.S. Depressing nerdity prompts me to point out that all malificar are blood mages by definition.

It's never been explicitly said if this was possible. I know Avernus summoned demons, since the Grey Wardens have no stigma against blood magic, but we're not really given much information about demonology. I suppose the writers keep it vague in case they want to implement something in the future.

[Ealos]

Was Zathrian a blood mage? Sudden thought.

[LobselVith8]

Ealos wrote...

Was Zathrian a blood mage? Sudden thought.

Yes, he performed blood magic to curse the humans who brutalized his family.

[Ealos]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ealos wrote...

Was Zathrian a blood mage? Sudden thought.

Yes, he performed blood magic to curse the humans who brutalized his family.

So no exception then, worth a try!

[LobselVith8]

Ealos wrote...

So no exception then, worth a try!

Spirit Healers are an exception, actually. According to their classification:

"While healing spells do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf. Thus, spirit healers are highly desired in the ranks of the Circle.

Becoming a spirit healer, however, is no simple matter. To gain the services of such benevolent and righteous beings requires that the mage earn their trust. Often this requires a series of trials to prove that the mage’s goals are as noble as the spirit demands, though some mages have claimed to command the compliance of such spirits through sheer force of charisma. Some spirit mages even claim they did not choose their calling; instead, a powerful spirit chose them and led them into lives of service and ordeal.

It should also be noted that the calling of a spirit healer is a dangerous one. The summoning of spirits through the Veil inevitably draws demons to the mage, sometimes very powerful ones. More than one tale exists of a spirit healer being fooled into believing a demon to be a spirit and inadvertently bringing them across the Veil... or being tricked into letting down their guard and possessed. As such, once a mage becomes a spirit healer they must heighten their vigilance for the remainder of their lives. It is a calling that not all will gladly suffer."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 02 avril 2011 - 03:29 .

[barryl89]

Well, my Hawke used blood magic to support the Templars xD
Some would be sickened by the breakdown in immersion. I think it is frikkin' awesome.

Blood magic is like any magic. If a common idiot like Grace knows how to use it, you going get bad results.

However if a powerful warden uses it to crush the archdemon, thats it being used for good.


Main differences:
Good blood mages use their own blood and maybe borrow a bit from willing allies.
Bad ones buy slaves and sacrifice them for recreational magic..

[Ealos]

Hmmm the spirit healer is an interesting point, I like that.

[greyman33]

My understanding was that blood magic, in itself, isn't evil. The problems with it, however, are it's history (taught to man by the old god Dumat prior to his corruption, indeed, prior to the existence of darkspawn to cause corruption), the fact that it requires, well, blood, which requires somebody suffer for it's practice, and the nature of things capable with it that can not happen any other way.

Because only blood magic can control the minds and bodies of others so easily it is by far the most open to abuse by potentially wicked minded mages. We are also told that only through blood magic can fade spirits, such as demons and shades, be physically brought through the veil to walk Thedas. This, I think we can all agree, is probably a bad thing.

The fact that the easiest way to learn blood magic these days seems to be through a deal with a demon in the fade, also paints a bleak picture for the practice. We are told that all mages are potential portals for demonic possession, but most never really draw the attention of a demon in the first place. Well, a lot of blood mages would have had to get some direct attention just to learn the tricks of the trade in the first place. This would, in theory anyway, make them much bigger targets for possession.

In and of itself, however, as a tool for spellcasting, it isn't any more inherently evil than a carpenter's hammer. It's just a thing. How you use it is what really matters.

Just my 2-cents.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ealos wrote...

So no exception then, worth a try!

Spirit Healers are an exception, actually. According to their classification:

That doesn't say how they bring them over the veil. Just that they do.

Edit: And it also mentions that spirit healers summon spirits, so that definition of summoning demons may be that they do the same thing as said spirits. Lend aid indirectly.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 02 avril 2011 - 04:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

That doesn't say how they bring them over the veil. Just that they do.

Since Spirit Healers are sanctioned by the Chantry and the templars, and blood magic is illegal, we know it has nothing to do with blood magic.

Herr Uhl wrote...

Edit: And it also mentions that spirit healers summon spirits, so that definition of summoning demons may be that they do the same thing as said spirits. Lend aid indirectly.

And I was addressing that it's possible for a spirit healer to bring a demon across the Veil because that was the question someone asked.

[greyman33]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ealos wrote...

So no exception then, worth a try!

Spirit Healers are an exception, actually. According to their classification:

That doesn't say how they bring them over the veil. Just that they do.

Edit: And it also mentions that spirit healers summon spirits, so that definition of summoning demons may be that they do the same thing as said spirits. Lend aid indirectly.

Also remember that there is no functional difference between spirits and demons, the only way to differentiate them, really, is by their intent.  Justice in Awakenings, as well as several of the demons in both games, repeadedly state as much.  Demon/spirit are just labels people gave to these different beings in the fade as a means of categorizing the 'good' ones from the 'bad' ones.

So a spirit healer may bond to what they think is a benevolent fade spirit only to find out, after it's too late, that the entitiy is actually something we would consider a pride demon.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

That doesn't say how they bring them over the veil. Just that they do.

Since Spirit Healers are sanctioned by the Chantry and the templars, and blood magic is illegal, we know it has nothing to do with blood magic.

But once the demon comes in it could suggest rituals, which coould involve blood magic.

Herr Uhl wrote...

Edit: And it also mentions that spirit healers summon spirits, so that definition of summoning demons may be that they do the same thing as said spirits. Lend aid indirectly.

And I was addressing that it's possible for a spirit healer to bring a demon across the Veil because that was the question someone asked.

The difference being that in that case, any mage can just by being possessed. There is a difference. That isn't having demons appear at your whim, it is demons choosing to appear.

But  you can use the quest "summoning sciences" instead. As that is what it is about, summoning things. And I doubt your dwarven rogue was performing blood magic.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 02 avril 2011 - 04:38 .

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

But once the demon comes in it could suggest rituals, which coould involve blood magic.

If the demon was brought forth across the Veil by a spirit healer, then no blood magic was involved in the summoning. As the class describes:

"While healing spells do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf. Thus, spirit healers are highly desired in the ranks of the Circle."

Herr Uhl wrote...

The difference being that in that case, any mage can just by being possessed. There is a difference. That isn't having demons appear at your whim, it is demons choosing to appear.

But  you can use the quest "summoning sciences" instead. As that is what it is about, summoning things. And I doubt your dwarven rogue was performing blood magic.

Spirit healers bringing spirits forth from the Veil to augment their healing abilities is what they do; sometimes, a demon can mistakenly be brought forth if it takes the guise of a spirit. That's what I was addressing. As the classification notes:

"It should also be noted that the calling of a spirit healer is a dangerous one. The summoning of spirits through the Veil inevitably draws demons to the mage, sometimes very powerful ones. More than one tale exists of a spirit healer being fooled into believing a demon to be a spirit and inadvertently bringing them across the Veil... or being tricked into letting down their guard and possessed. As such, once a mage becomes a spirit healer they must heighten their vigilance for the remainder of their lives. It is a calling that not all will gladly suffer."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 02 avril 2011 - 04:48 .