99 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Warheadz wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Lore is a moot point. It is simply a bonus when developers try to make their gameplay consistent with their lore, a surprising and much appreciated treat. By no means do I expect it. Traditionally gameplay and lore are separate.

Nixing Arcane Warriors was a gameplay decision. They wanted to make the classes more unique.

Why? I am honestly not sure. I see nothing wrong with crossover classes. I enjoy them.

If you want to create RPG's, you have to create worlds. If you want to create a world, you need to create lore. Otherwise there is no world where the player can roleplay and immerse him/herself into. It's an extremely idiotic choice for a RPG to create lore and the n throw it away whenever it's an inconvenience.

Well put, very well put indeed.

[skan5]

Warheadz wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Lore is a moot point. It is simply a bonus when developers try to make their gameplay consistent with their lore, a surprising and much appreciated treat. By no means do I expect it. Traditionally gameplay and lore are separate.

Nixing Arcane Warriors was a gameplay decision. They wanted to make the classes more unique.

Why? I am honestly not sure. I see nothing wrong with crossover classes. I enjoy them.

If you want to create RPG's, you have to create worlds. If you want to create a world, you need to create lore. Otherwise there is no world where the player can roleplay and immerse him/herself into. It's an extremely idiotic choice for a RPG to create lore and the n throw it away whenever it's an inconvenience.

To be fair, while I don't think the extent DA2 took it is apropriate, every game does this to some level. Your party is getting hit in DA:O quite often, even if not dying. Meaning they're probably getting cut, knicked, wounded, what have you. The chances of not getting hit with the taint when you're massacring so many darkspawn, - and in some fights coming out with their blood splattered all over you - I'd wager isn't that high (for your non Warden companions).

But I don't think we ever worried about that Some gameplay elements will always supersede lore. 

Modifié par skan5, 02 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[Sarethus]

Warheadz wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

 I'll give you the teleporting thing.
 But you don;t need to bargain with a demon to become a blood Mage, you simply have to able to summon negative spirits from the fade.

That...Makes...no...sense.
In Origins every single mage had to bargain with demons. They did not summon negative spirits. To learn blood magic, you have to learn it from a demon, and you can only learn it if you make a deal with the demon.

"In the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of the
more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice of
using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This life
may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices. It
lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very own
life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas now
that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination."

You are very incorrect. 

Play through the Mage Origins in DAO. There was a whole book case worth of books on Blood Magic which Irving removed on Gregoir's recommendation/orders as they believed Jowan learnt Blood Magic from them.

There are three sources/methods to learn Blood Magic:

1) Books: Trick is finding them, but a mage can learn Blood Magic from them easily if they can find them. Most Circles would likely have a few copies under lock and key. Probably not the Kirkwall Circle though unless they kept it a very big secret from Merideth.

2) Other Mages who already know Blood Magic:  Whether they learnt it from Demons or not, Mages who know Blood Magic can teach others, Merril could teach Hawke or other mages, Decimus likely taught his followers again the trick is finding someone who knows Blood Magic and is willing to teach it which is difficult outside of Tevinter. Merril is a likely candidate though.

3) Demons: The ones who originally taught Blood Magic to mages, they are very willing to teach anyone who is willing. 

Modifié par Sarethus, 02 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[Nightwriter]

Warheadz wrote...

If you want to create RPG's, you have to create worlds. If you want to create a world, you need to create lore. Otherwise there is no world where the player can roleplay and immerse him/herself into. It's an extremely idiotic choice for a RPG to create lore and the n throw it away whenever it's an inconvenience.

But they have. I am by no means saying it is right - I am simply saying it is done. Often.

I don't want to go throwing around words like "lazy" and "idiotic" when I don't know the explanations and rationale behind it. I am saddened by it, yes. But I hesitate to be accusatory without an informed opinion.

[Warheadz]

skan5 wrote...

To be fair, while I don't think the extent DA2 took it is apropriate, every game does this to some level. Your party is getting hit in DA:O quite often, even if not dying. Meaning they're probably getting cut, knicked, wounded, what have you. The chances of not getting hit with the taint when you're massacring so many darkspawn, - and in some fights coming out with their blood splattered all over you - I'd wager isn't that high (for your non Warden companions).

But I don't think we ever worried about that Some gameplay elements will always supercede lore. 

I'll give you that darkspawn blood thing, but that is a minimal sacrifice that must be made as long as Dragon Age is a game. But the teleporting mages, for example isn't a necessary choice. And what with the blood mages=awesome equation they made at the design board. They are completely unnecessary.

And I want to point out that the "everyone does it" argument is complete crap, no matter where and when used.
This was even supposed to be an "evolution", but I'm not seeing it.

[DocDoomII]

goering wrote...

probably went like
"how can we make arcane warrior awesome if mages can't wield weapons?"
"well, we could just remove the stupid weapon restrictions you put in."
"NOOO, warrior=sword, rogue=dagger, button=awesome! let's just scrap it"

Don't know why... but this seems so... possible

[Warheadz]

Sarethus wrote...

You are very incorrect. 

Play through the Mage Origins in DAO. There was a whole book case worth of books on Blood Magic which Irving removed on Gregoir's recommendation/orders as they believed Jowan learnt Blood Magic from them.

I am unfamiliar with the mage Origin, but isn't it possible that the demon contacted Jowan as he wanted to learn and was going to be made tranquil? To my understanding they were going to make him tranquil because he was both not easy to control and powerful.

...And I guess Uldred's possible? Nothing indicates they learned BM after Ostagar.

Modifié par Warheadz, 02 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[skan5]

 

Warheadz wrote...I'll give you that darkspawn blood thing, but that is a minimal sacrifice that must be made as long as Dragon Age is a game. But the teleporting mages, for example isn't a necessary choice. And what with the blood mages=awesome equation they made at the design board. They are completely unnecessary.

And I want to point out that the "everyone does it" argument is complete crap, no matter where and when used.
This was even supposed to be an "evolution", but I'm not seeing it.

Nightwriter shares my sentiments on the issue: I don't like that this is the case. I'd prefer if gameplay came from the lore, and I'd love to see lore brought out in tact. But unfortunately - across all genres - this just isn't the case. And some subjects are rather touchy (like how to handle death of a squadmate).

Though again I'll reiterate, I don't think the levels that DA2 took it is appropriate.

[Hulk Hsieh]

You can build melee mage that is as durable as warriors in DA2.
It just doesn't rely on ridiculous thing like Shimmering Shield now.

[goering]

regarding blood magic: while the lore mentions that blood magic is rare in thedas and is supposedly only taught by demons anymore, this doesn't mean that blood magic can't be taught by humans as well. so, if there's a radical mage underground with just one blood mage ...

regarding arcane warrior: design decision - no lore whatsoever. they said warrior = sword, rogue = dagger/bow, mage=staff, button = awesome.

it doesn't go any deeper than this.

[1Nosphorus1]

I'm not happy about the retcons in the game as they're far more blatent than the ones in The Elder Scrolls series (At least the only one I can remember is Levitation).

But that was a change due to how the engine worked with cities being in cells etc, nothing ever being truly open.

Bioware had no excuse, same engine just slightly improved to suit their needs yet mages teleporting all over the place, Revenants suddenly popping up out of nowhere, Rage Demons difficulty being turned up to 10, specialisations which take no insight into unlocking, and of course onee of the baddies turning into a flesh golem apparently made out of dwarven smiths using dwarven bodies.

Playing as a mage is even worse, templars barely recognised blood magic when I was casting it infront of their face, and how come I was the only good blood mage!

[sleepyowlet]

Eterna5 wrote...

 No It didn't. You're all complaining about really small story hiccups. With DA2 we learned much more about Tevinter culture, the Chantry, the Qun and a multitude of other organizations and beliefs in Thedas.

Really? I noticed that most of the codex entries I found on the above (actually I didn't find anything new as far as I remember) were recycled ones from DA:O. I didn't learn anything new about the Chantry but the Seeker thing, which was put in to explain Cassandra.

Small story-hickups? Er... no. There was really big stuff. Like the Blight turning land into Mars within hours, the "highly attractive to humans" elves, and married Templars. I could go on. They did break their own lore big time.

[Tirigon]

Eterna5 wrote...

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...



There cant be any other explanation other than Bioware didnt feel like doing it and cut corners. It so sad to see this series ripped apart and gutted just to make a quick buck

Or maybe it's because Bioware wanted their mages to be mages instead of plate wearing juggernaughts? 

Yea, I agree, it´s probably because they wanted to turn the most awesome and versatile class into the sh!ttiest one.


About the lore argument:
Yes, Arcane Warrior is forgotten, but then, Blood Magic is supposed to be rare and hard to learn, too, and not only can you be one in a city that would send an entire army after you if you´re a bloodmage, but even every other mage is a f*cking bloodmage.

[DocDoomII]

No really.
Stop trying to explain with lore, laziness in class balancing and cuts needed to stay in short development times...
you are all just being ridiculous :innocent:

[Sarethus]

Warheadz wrote...

Sarethus wrote...

You are very incorrect. 

Play through the Mage Origins in DAO. There was a whole book case worth of books on Blood Magic which Irving removed on Gregoir's recommendation/orders as they believed Jowan learnt Blood Magic from them.

I am unfamiliar with the mage Origin, but isn't it possible that the demon contacted Jowan as he wanted to learn and was going to be made tranquil? To my understanding they were going to make him tranquil because he was both not easy to control and powerful.

...And I guess Uldred's possible? Nothing indicates they learned BM after Ostagar.

If you speak with Jowan in Redcliffe Prision, he gives two lines of dialogue, the first being that he knows nothing about summoning demons and second that he dabbled in blood magic because it was the only way he and Lily could escape and the only way he could avoid being made tranquil. 

Now Jowan could be lieing but when you consider the big to do about the Blood Magic Books in the Mage Origin and then the fact that he gives this line while in prision when he is at his most pathethic  and lowest point with practically nothing to loose... I just don't think he was lieing. 

Also in the mage origin he explains that the reason peaple were suspicious about him was because he was sneaking around trying to see his girlfriend Lily a chantry initiate but people thought he was sneaking around trying to learn blood magic and their suspicions made him react and learn blood magic to aid in his escape.... A very stupid cycle.

[Relvor]

Cheap theory on Blood Magic:

You cant choose specializations (or even see them) before your first year in Kirkwall. Maybe Hawke dealt with demons while working with ....(spoiler). A year is enough time to do so. You dont even get an accurate description what Hawke has done in this year.

Modifié par Relvor, 02 avril 2011 - 11:33 .

[Archontor]

Would have made sense if you just leared specialisations from party members I can see it now:

Fenris: In tevinter was a group of warriors called reavers that Danerius had me work with, I learened much from them and I can teach you their ways.

Anders: I still remember how to heal people you know, but vengence interferes with the process of contactin positive spirits, I can still teach you how.

Issabella: Wanna 'duel'

Merril: I want to show you the good blood magic can do, if you'l let me I mean.

Aveline: Wesly and I often sparred together, during those setions he often taught me a few templar techniques.

The list goes on....

[CaisLaochach]

Is it Kirkwall designed to weaken the barrier between the Fade and the 'real world' which is one reason for the prevalence of demons, abominations and thus, by extension, blood mages.

[goering]

you can "Use the Force" now, though.
bet laidlaws arse that that was implemented solely to promote their new star wars crap.

[Cowboy_christo]

goering wrote...

you can "Use the Force" now, though.
bet laidlaws arse that that was implemented solely to promote their new star wars crap.

I scrapped "Force" part in my head and just assumed it was a specialization of the arcane spell tree lol.

Anyway overall, bioware made bad decision about specialization by removing or simply adding them w/o thought(See it took us less than day to find how to add them with some "lore" immersion). Most companion could teach something or heck you could find a godanm book lying around and it would have been more immersive.

I know they were limited in time but its still no excuse for the horrid decision they took in most game design(lorewise, artwise, storywise and gameplay. Wait that's is the whole game lol)

Modifié par Cowboy_christo, 02 avril 2011 - 01:51 .

[Arijharn]

Other than lore reasons, I don't really miss the Arcane Warrior to be honest. Arcane Warriors I think went against the grain that they were trying to build up in DA2, namely that all classes make up their own sort of niche roll.

In origins, Arcane Warriors were woefully unbalanced in the sense of: "Why even having Warriors to begin with?" and sure, it's a bit extreme just to decide to cut the spec altogether, but at least all the mage specialisations still perform as mages, all the warrior spec's still perform as warriors etc.

[Serpieri Nei]

Arcane Warrior ins't the only specialization missing.

Bard, Ranger, Shapeshifter, Spirit Warrior, Legionnaire Scout, Battlemage and Keeper.

It's Simple, all this would of taken money and time to implement. Bioware is now in the fast food business.

[spudrow2005]

2 reasons, as mentioned the arcane warrior was considered a lost art all but lost leaves it open be we can all agree that its pretty damn rare so it is highly unlikely that hawke would just pick it up on his travels.  also most of the specializations were stripped down or their core concept was converted into trees in hopes of repeating ME2's appeal to a wider audience.   it is still possible to stat up hawke to use armor but those stats would probably be better spent on mage stats.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Lore isn't an excuse. For pete's sake, Hawke can run around the city as a blood mage without anyone saying a damn thing.

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

Reason its gone, simple : Mages cant use swords anymore because of the new limitations which sucks. Why in the creators view can mages who have physical forms not use weapons is beyond me. I miss the Origins class systems for just this reason.