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[Aradace]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Tirigon - So essentially what you're saying is that since YOU think it's not immersive that anyone who thinks it is,is either lying and/or wrong? That in and of itself shows how ignorant you really are lol.  While you're at it with your telling people what they can and cannot think, why dont you just go ahead and tatoo that swatztika on your forehead while screaming ZEIK HEIL!!!  Since you believe that your way of thinking is the only one there is.

Nah..what people are saying is that it's LESS immersive than DA:O and many other games. It certanly has immersive elements of it's own (having a family, some companions), but it has less of them and a lot more immersion breaking elements (like you being a (blood)mage having no influence on the templars, oversized swords, overused gore, no real feel of the time-skip, etc...)

Again, beliving that just because you can immerse yourself in the game that MUST mean the game is incredibly immersive is a falacy.
I can eat hot chilly peppers that would burn out your throat...I got used to them. Does that mean that they aren't spicy? Nah, they are spicy - I just built up a very high tolerance to it.

Likewise, some people just have a very low immersion treshold.

The word is still open to interpretation and will vary from person to person.  There is no one way to lable "immersion" which is precisely why you are welcome to your interpretation of it, but it is in no way, a universal truth.  Your definition of it is just as valid as mine.

[Monica83]

When you in a game have the sensation to be on a LIVING place this is immersion..... And.. in Da2 its all empty and flat..... Now you can love the game and its ok for me... But stop to try to defend it in a very disperate manner... Always people screams.. Opinions Opinions Opinions.. Well just take Origins and compare it with this sequel... And you see a lot of statcness and absurd streamlization... Laso take Baldur's gate 2 and compare it with Da2 its like compare gold with carbon...

[Aradace]

Monica83 wrote...

When you in a game have the sensation to be on a LIVING place this is immersion..... And.. in Da2 its all empty and flat..... Now you can love the game and its ok for me... But stop to try to defend it in a very disperate manner... Always people screams.. Opinions Opinions Opinions.. Well just take Origins and compare it with this sequel... And you see a lot of statcness and absurd streamlization... Laso take Baldur's gate 2 and compare it with Da2 its like compare gold with carbon...

STILL an opinion.  There is not a single definition of the word immersion.  As I said before, you're welcome to your point of view.  And by your definition, I STILL felt "immersed".  Im not saying everyone should.  Im not saying everyone does.  Im simply saying that me saying it IS immersive isnt any less valid than your OPINION that it isnt.  Case closed.

[Monica83]

Aradace wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

When you in a game have the sensation to be on a LIVING place this is immersion..... And.. in Da2 its all empty and flat..... Now you can love the game and its ok for me... But stop to try to defend it in a very disperate manner... Always people screams.. Opinions Opinions Opinions.. Well just take Origins and compare it with this sequel... And you see a lot of statcness and absurd streamlization... Laso take Baldur's gate 2 and compare it with Da2 its like compare gold with carbon...

STILL an opinion.  There is not a single definition of the word immersion.  As I said before, you're welcome to your point of view.  And by your definition, I STILL felt "immersed".  Im not saying everyone should.  Im not saying everyone does.  Im simply saying that me saying it IS immersive isnt any less valid than your OPINION that it isnt.  Case closed.

Well im very happy for you ..You are very lucky you don't need big things to feel yourself inside the game..
Oh... That's a Opinion

[Aradace]

Monica83 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

When you in a game have the sensation to be on a LIVING place this is immersion..... And.. in Da2 its all empty and flat..... Now you can love the game and its ok for me... But stop to try to defend it in a very disperate manner... Always people screams.. Opinions Opinions Opinions.. Well just take Origins and compare it with this sequel... And you see a lot of statcness and absurd streamlization... Laso take Baldur's gate 2 and compare it with Da2 its like compare gold with carbon...

STILL an opinion.  There is not a single definition of the word immersion.  As I said before, you're welcome to your point of view.  And by your definition, I STILL felt "immersed".  Im not saying everyone should.  Im not saying everyone does.  Im simply saying that me saying it IS immersive isnt any less valid than your OPINION that it isnt.  Case closed.

Well im very happy for you ..You are very lucky you don't need big things to feel yourself inside the game..
Oh... That's a Opinion

*sarcastic golfer clap* Yayyyy!!! You finally got it.  Thought I was going to have to break out the dictionary definition of FACT and OPINION for you there for a minute.

[AlanC9]

Glad to see we're finally getting somewhere.

Over on the ME boards I sometimes see suggestions made in the name of "immersion" which would actually make the game much less immersive for me.

Come to think of it, when discussing VO on the PC both sides appeal to "immersion" as justifying their own preferences, don't they?

[MrTijger]

AlanC9 wrote...

Glad to see we're finally getting somewhere.

Over on the ME boards I sometimes see suggestions made in the name of "immersion" which would actually make the game much less immersive for me.

Come to think of it, when discussing VO on the PC both sides appeal to "immersion" as justifying their own preferences, don't they?

Yep they do, I read that someone was complaining that Merrill' voice (being that she has a welsh accent from a known welsh actress)  broke immersion for him since he associated it with Torchwood, the tv series.

I prefer voice acting in games, others hate it...its all preference.

[Jaron Oberyn]

MrTijger wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Glad to see we're finally getting somewhere.

Over on the ME boards I sometimes see suggestions made in the name of "immersion" which would actually make the game much less immersive for me.

Come to think of it, when discussing VO on the PC both sides appeal to "immersion" as justifying their own preferences, don't they?

Yep they do, I read that someone was complaining that Merrill' voice (being that she has a welsh accent from a known welsh actress)  broke immersion for him since he associated it with Torchwood, the tv series.

I prefer voice acting in games, others hate it...its all preference.

I have to say that that accent pretty much annoyed me too. Along with all of the elves. Hers in particular though. I don't remember the dalish being like that in DA:O.

-Polite

[CEG100]

I didn't have a problem with the cut scenes. What ruined the immersion for me were a number of other things. I was able to look past minor dissapoints like the companions being shoe horned into specific roles with little room for customization, the lack of tactical view and even the dungeon recycling (at first) and enjoyed playing it for a while. However, by the time I got to ACT 3 I just found myself bored with it. The combat encounters just felt repetitive and generic after a while. Then there were the quests. There were so many little quests and so few areas that often I'd find myself running across them, finishing them and turning them in without ever conciously setting out to do them. While it still gets the job done, it just really took me out of the story. Felt more like playing an MMO than some well thought out epic quest line. I much prefered DAO's fewer, but longer and more meaningful quests.

This is really the first time I felt let down on a Bioware game, so I'm not going to trash them and I'm not giving up on them yet. I'm pretty sure EA is more to blame for this since Bioware would have never released a game with such blatantly obvious time saving tricks it the past. Here's to learning from your mistakes on DA3.

[Annora]

Tirigon wrote...

DAO:

And nekkid (NSFW!!!!!!!!!): http://screenshot.xf...112565451-3.jpg

DA2:




TES4: Oblivion


You were saying?

I'm confused by you posting modded models as if thats going to prove your point. And those DA2 screenshots still look better to me than both Oblivion and DA:O.

[cljqnsnyc]

How's this for immersion.....

Play a mage and see how many templars completely ignore the fact that you are a mage. Even Cullen hasn't got the faintest idea that you can throw fireballs, even after he witnesses this himself. Part of the central story, as disjointed and uneven as it may be, is the conflict between mages and templars, yet as an apostate mage, you are virtually unseen. Even Wesley at the very beginning of the game looks past mage Hawke to mage Bethany and says "Apostate!" NOT APOSTATES! Broken immersion. Cullen looks at mage Hawke and says "Mages aren't like YOU or me." Mage Hawke looks at Cullen after a statement about how all mages are dangerous and says "I have friends who are mages, should they be locked up as well?" Broken immersion.

The city doesn't change at all, even in the course of 7 years. Even that guy waiting to see the Viscount is still there years later complaining how he's been waiting all day.
Broken immersion

Immersion is extremely important in an rpg. The whole point is to take on the characters life and live through them. For me, Hawke and his family were strangers we knew nothing about. They are forced upon you mid flight and the story starts there. This is supposed to be an rpg, where story is paramount. No character establishment, no set up. Time jumps and we're simply told what happens without actually being able to experience any of it. For me, this creates a separation between you and the character you are supposed to inhabit. Broken immersion.

Choice? What choice? No matter what you do, everything ends up exactly the same. Even the most ridiculous things occur. Take the final battle. The First Enchanter. He feels blood magic is evil and yet after you have agreed to aid the mages and more or less win the first wave of the attack, decides to use this power himself...then fights YOU! Makes perfect sense right? WRONG!!! Broken immersion!!! ...and just why are all those magical, mystical waves of enemies after Hawke? 

When things don't add up in a game supposedly driven by the story, it takes ME out of the game and reduces me to a spectator. Hawke feels like a character I control most of the time, not someone I've inhabited. There are moments where this is not the case but that is part of the problem. The story felt very uneven, without focus, and this contributes to broken immersion. But this is how I see it. Some people see green while others see blue.

Modifié par cljqnsnyc, 04 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[KLUME777]

Anastassia wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

DAO:

And nekkid (NSFW!!!!!!!!!): http://screenshot.xf...112565451-3.jpg

DA2:




TES4: Oblivion


You were saying?

I'm confused by you posting modded models as if thats going to prove your point. And those DA2 screenshots still look better to me than both Oblivion and DA:O.

What computer are you running TES 4 on? On my PS3, TES:4 looks tons better, those are bad images.

[KLUME777]

Aether99 wrote...

they both have there issuezs but ill be honest, i found AD2 more immersive.

The things that broke my immersion in DAO were things such as. 

Silent Protagonist-If the game had no voiced dialogue it wouldnt break my immersion, but since everything but the MC had voiced dialogue it was edxtremely imersion breaking. 

Animations/character structures-it was just bad, stiff as a board save for eyebrows and voice acting. 

Tactical combat-ok, i loved the tactical combat so i haver to explain this one.  How is it immersive to float up 30 yards in the air and control everyone with a camera that you control and doesnt follow party members?  if its down closer as if you are one char its more immersive unless you have a god complex.   So while i enjoyed tactical camera/combat it was not immersive, sorta a catch 22 for me.

For DA2

re-used maps-big issue

unresponsive npc's-the ones that walk thru a fight im having

Now DA2's animations were not perfect by anymeans but compared to DAO they are amazing, combined witha  voiced protagonist with more animation it felt much more immersive.

For ideas on games that i find immersive, Deadspace, as for rpgs its a bit harder to get that level, so id settle for a game like morrowind/obloivion/fallout 3, they tried to make it quite immersive, and as for 3rd person, i enjoyed the witcher (got the one that was released later that didnt have all the bugs)

I find it wierd that stiff NPC's and animations are an immersion breaker for DAO yet your fine with Fallout 3/Morrowind/Oblivion?

I never had any immersion breaking in DAO, that game was nearly perfect from start to finish for immersion.

[Ellinelle]

Immersion requies a belief in the world you're playing in. I cannot believe in a world where every type of villain or monster can just teleport into the middle of a battle.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Aradace wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Tirigon - So essentially what you're saying is that since YOU think it's not immersive that anyone who thinks it is,is either lying and/or wrong? That in and of itself shows how ignorant you really are lol.  While you're at it with your telling people what they can and cannot think, why dont you just go ahead and tatoo that swatztika on your forehead while screaming ZEIK HEIL!!!  Since you believe that your way of thinking is the only one there is.

Nah..what people are saying is that it's LESS immersive than DA:O and many other games. It certanly has immersive elements of it's own (having a family, some companions), but it has less of them and a lot more immersion breaking elements (like you being a (blood)mage having no influence on the templars, oversized swords, overused gore, no real feel of the time-skip, etc...)

Again, beliving that just because you can immerse yourself in the game that MUST mean the game is incredibly immersive is a falacy.
I can eat hot chilly peppers that would burn out your throat...I got used to them. Does that mean that they aren't spicy? Nah, they are spicy - I just built up a very high tolerance to it.

Likewise, some people just have a very low immersion treshold.

The word is still open to interpretation and will vary from person to person.  There is no one way to lable "immersion" which is precisely why you are welcome to your interpretation of it, but it is in no way, a universal truth.  Your definition of it is just as valid as mine.

No.
Because immersive elements can be counted....things can be rationalized.

"just because" doesn't work as an explanation. I can make a detailed list of all things in DA2 that help or hurt immersion.
Different people can put more or less importance on specific elements, but that doesnt change the fact that those elements exist and can be counted.


Immersiveness is not subejctive. the treshold to achive it is.

[Aradace]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Tirigon - So essentially what you're saying is that since YOU think it's not immersive that anyone who thinks it is,is either lying and/or wrong? That in and of itself shows how ignorant you really are lol.  While you're at it with your telling people what they can and cannot think, why dont you just go ahead and tatoo that swatztika on your forehead while screaming ZEIK HEIL!!!  Since you believe that your way of thinking is the only one there is.

Nah..what people are saying is that it's LESS immersive than DA:O and many other games. It certanly has immersive elements of it's own (having a family, some companions), but it has less of them and a lot more immersion breaking elements (like you being a (blood)mage having no influence on the templars, oversized swords, overused gore, no real feel of the time-skip, etc...)

Again, beliving that just because you can immerse yourself in the game that MUST mean the game is incredibly immersive is a falacy.
I can eat hot chilly peppers that would burn out your throat...I got used to them. Does that mean that they aren't spicy? Nah, they are spicy - I just built up a very high tolerance to it.

Likewise, some people just have a very low immersion treshold.

The word is still open to interpretation and will vary from person to person.  There is no one way to lable "immersion" which is precisely why you are welcome to your interpretation of it, but it is in no way, a universal truth.  Your definition of it is just as valid as mine.

No.
Because immersive elements can be counted....things can be rationalized.

"just because" doesn't work as an explanation. I can make a detailed list of all things in DA2 that help or hurt immersion.
Different people can put more or less importance on specific elements, but that doesnt change the fact that those elements exist and can be counted.


Immersiveness is not subejctive. the treshold to achive it is.

You know what? Lets just cut the bs and go strait to the part where we agree to disagree because this is going nowhere.  Seriously, think what you want to think because it's not going to change what I think.  You obviously think there is ONLY ONE definition of the word.  As narrow-minded as that is, I can respect that you're willing to stick to your PoV regardless.  So seriously, the discussion has gotten old and tired and I just dont have it in me anymore to keep arguing with a brick wall lol.  Move on.

[VheodTh]

Why are you even discussing this? Not one of you can prove if the game is immersive or not as it's purely a matter of opinion.

[Aradace]

VheodTh wrote...

Why are you even discussing this? Not one of you can prove if the game is immersive or not as it's purely a matter of opinion.

And had you been paying attention, you'd know that is precsisely what Ive been debating.  He's the only one trying to pass his view off as fact lol
But in order to know that you would have had to have read more than the last 4-5 posts and actually read a few pages.

Modifié par Aradace, 04 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[VheodTh]

Aradace wrote...

VheodTh wrote...

Why are you even discussing this? Not one of you can prove if the game is immersive or not as it's purely a matter of opinion.

And had you been paying attention, you'd know that is precsisely what Ive been debating.  He's the only one trying to pass his view off as fact lol

I have no idea what you have written, I just reponded to the topic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Aradace wrote...

You know what? Lets just cut the bs and go strait to the part where we agree to disagree because this is going nowhere.  Seriously, think what you want to think because it's not going to change what I think.  You obviously think there is ONLY ONE definition of the word.  As narrow-minded as that is, I can respect that you're willing to stick to your PoV regardless.  So seriously, the discussion has gotten old and tired and I just dont have it in me anymore to keep arguing with a brick wall lol.  Move on.

Of course there is only one definition. Looking in the dictionary gives the words a clear meaning.

Now, you are of course free to think whatever you want - that doesn't make that the truth sadly.
You'd like to make everything subjective, but it's not.


Elements of a given works are by defintion more or less immersive.
For example - normal swords are by their very essence more immersive than oversized ones.
A functional items is more immersive than a flashy one.
A more personal story is more immersive..etc..

All of this can be proven by simple logic and statistics.
For example - why aren't fantasy and sci-fi the most popular shows/books?  Why isn't anime super-popular among general population?
Care to wager that if they tonned down the over-the-top elements they'd be better recieved?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 avril 2011 - 09:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

VheodTh wrote...

Why are you even discussing this? Not one of you can prove if the game is immersive or not as it's purely a matter of opinion.

Imersivenes is not a binary 1/0..rather a scale.
So no. I don't recall saying DA2 has 0 immersion. I'm saying it has LESS immersion compared to DA:O.

[VheodTh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

VheodTh wrote...

Why are you even discussing this? Not one of you can prove if the game is immersive or not as it's purely a matter of opinion.

Imersivenes is not a binary 1/0..rather a scale.
So no. I don't recall saying DA2 has 0 immersion. I'm saying it has LESS immersion compared to DA:O.

That changes nothing. It's still a matter of opinion. Of course people can express their opinion on the matter, but trying to prove it as a fact doesn't work.

EDIT: and btw, I haven't even read what you have written so I reponded to noone specific

Modifié par VheodTh, 04 avril 2011 - 09:58 .

[Aradace]

VheodTh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

VheodTh wrote...

Why are you even discussing this? Not one of you can prove if the game is immersive or not as it's purely a matter of opinion.

Imersivenes is not a binary 1/0..rather a scale.
So no. I don't recall saying DA2 has 0 immersion. I'm saying it has LESS immersion compared to DA:O.

That changes nothing. It's still a matter of opinion. Of course people can express their opinion on the matter, but trying to prove it as a fact doesn't work.

EDIT: and btw, I haven't even read what you have written so I reponded to noone specific

Just give it up lol...I have and Im not even bothering replying to any of his posts at this point and gone so far as to block him too.  You cant reason with folks like Lotion because once he gets the idea in his head that he's right, that's all there is and there's no other truth other than his own.  To him, there is only black and white and no room for shades of grey.  So open minded thought is lost on him.

[VheodTh]

Aradace wrote...

Just give it up lol...I have and Im not even bothering replying to any of his posts at this point and gone so far as to block him too.  You cant reason with folks like Lotion because once he gets the idea in his head that he's right, that's all there is and there's no other truth other than his own.  To him, there is only black and white and no room for shades of grey.  So open minded thought is lost on him.

Agreed

[maegi46]

mrcrusty wrote...

Of course it would be. But she wasn't, so it's not.

I believe his point was how unlike previous Bio games they allowed the player to build a rapport with important characters, you had invested time and emotion in them. Whereas in DA 2, they just get mauled in short order. Making it hard to care what happens to them.

Which is really counter intuitive for an RPG as the good ones will make you care about characters which are supposed to be close and/or important to you.

I still haven't played DA2 outside the demo, so I don't know if this really is the case with other characters too. But it's hard to have empathy or even sympathy for a character who was thrust onto you less than 10 minutes ago.

Really tired of this lame ass argument. Most of you whining about DA2 use this and other examples and say it isn't an RPG , it's an action game blah blah...well it IS an RPG and you had half a clue as to what RP even meant, you'd have NO trouble putting yourself in a caring position, whether it's 10 minutes into the game or 10 hours. You don't have to worry about ever being an actor and you probably never played Dungeons and Dragons , or if you did, you sucked at that too....just saying

Modifié par maegi46, 04 avril 2011 - 10:36 .