230 réponses à ce sujet

[Ubasti]

Acesahn wrote...

I really wish there was a normal, not bizarr person in the game as a romance option. Maybe a Dalish elf who wants to explore the civiilized world? An anti hero thief or pick pocket whose really just does what she must to survive? I dont know...

I confess I haven't read all the answers in this thread (just the ones in the first page), so it might be someone has already asked this. But what defines a 'good girl' to you? And isn't Leliana in a way what you wrote about a thief who just does what she has to do? Yes, she likes women, does that mean every woman who does is bizarre and not a 'good girl'?

I agree to some who wrote here, that even Alistair is not the archetypal 'good guy', which is good in my opinion, because we've had enough of those in games past (and in every other media there is as well). we've also had loads of 'good girls' before. And for me those kind of characters get boring in the long run.

Or maybe you just mean a character that has no sad/weird/bad/etc. background? Unfortunately the games ( and movies etc.) don't seem to gather such characters nowadays. Maybe because those kind of characters don't interest people enough to sell the products?

[Zugin]

What would be interesting is not cartoonish "good girl" they just don't exist and are boring to begin with (unless you are jerking off to some manga). But a really strong intelligent personality who values duty, honor etc. If anyone read Shogun by James Clavell, someone like Mariko.



I think Anora would be an interesting character to know better, still a bit too weak. Female younger version of Loghain would be pretty great.



I really like both Leliana and Morrigan btw. Leliana is too good to be true romance though I feel, Morrigan is a type of person you can love but not unconditionally, pact of equals of sorts.

[Acesahn]

Ubasti wrote...

Acesahn wrote...

I really wish there was a normal, not bizarr person in the game as a romance option. Maybe a Dalish elf who wants to explore the civiilized world? An anti hero thief or pick pocket whose really just does what she must to survive? I dont know...

I confess I haven't read all the answers in this thread (just the ones in the first page), so it might be someone has already asked this. But what defines a 'good girl' to you?

Someone whose not an amoral devient?

[Ubasti]

Hmm, and what is amoral (btw, I think the word deviant is unnecessary here, or then I just have no idea what you mean by it, since I'm not native English speaker) in Ferelden? Or do you mean by our world's standards? And well, to me it seemed Leliana wants to repent, and to change (unless the PC hardens her). I think that is not behavior of an amoral person. Yes, she may have been behaving amoral before, but then again, she didn't seem to know any better.

So, I still am not sure what you mean by this 'good girl'. I'm guessing though, that what you mean is someone who wants to obey the law, who finds unnecessary killing of people cruel, and who wants to help people in need? Am I right?

[Sarielle]

ejikvkaske wrote...



Let's see, a female version of
Alistair would be a whiny virgin with a rather large inferiority
complex, which she tries to mask behind some pre-school level humor. No
thanks.

I think I explained that I was not suggesting a
female version of Alistair -- as a repetition would be boring. Simply
that he was a "good guy" who worked as being useful to the Warden
cause, so it should be perfectly doable to have a "good girl" character
also useful to the grey wardens. Unless that wasn't aimed at me. :B

fchopin wrote...

I think bioware did a good job for the romance options, you get to choose whatever your preference.

Like
everyone else am greedy so if there was more options that would be
great but I don’t see how a good girl would fit in the team, we need
killers in our team and there is no way killers would be considered
good.

-facepalm- "Good" does not necessarily means "screams and runs from spiders." [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Zugin wrote...

What would be interesting is not cartoonish "good girl" they just don't exist and are boring to begin with (unless you are jerking off to some manga). But a really strong intelligent personality who values duty, honor etc. If anyone read Shogun by James Clavell, someone like Mariko.

Didn't read that, but yes. That to me is what a "good girl" is who'd work in the Wardens. Who doesn't lie or sleep her way through situations, etc.

[Zugin]

Zugin wrote...

What would be interesting is not cartoonish "good girl" they just don't exist and are boring to begin with (unless you are jerking off to some manga). But a really strong intelligent personality who values duty, honor etc. If anyone read Shogun by James Clavell, someone like Mariko.

Didn't read that, but yes. That to me is what a "good girl" is who'd work in the Wardens. Who doesn't lie or sleep her way through situations, etc.

But why not? Lies if they benefit the end.. and why not use sex if it works in the situation? Wardens will kill, basically use slave recruitment methods(thats what conscription is..) I like Liliana's method more then a rack and some pliers.

Shogun is worth a read, awesome novel. Character can value duty and honor yet be completely ruthless. Mariko's character serves her lord who is the one trying to become the Shogun, you can imagine what that entails Lies, intrigue, torture, murder all tools all valid but all depends on the goals and philsosophy of such character.

[Maria Caliban]

Zalashiji wrote...

You can't get Lelianna in a three-some, I should know, I tried with Alistair and Lelianna, that was a no go, and Lelianna likes Alistair the most out of everybody

Yes, you can. She even makes a comment about noble women in Orlais afterwards.

[Walina]

Acesahn wrote...

Alistar fits the Mr. Nice guy Bioware romance option to a T. He's funny, sensitive, a virgin... But as we changed tracks for the for the female's of bioware we get a whole different story. One's a seductress, who finds any kind thing you do throughout the course of the game (even saving people) a bad thing. Morrigan hints that she uses romance to use people and despises talks of love. Obviously not our good girl there, hell her allure is that she's the exact opposite of that. Then we got Leliana. Religous... kind... at first glance. Of course when you find out she used to be a spy who specialized in becoming whatever type of woman her target desired and practically boasts she can bag any man. File that under "ThingsI would have rather not known about." Oh and she flat out prefers women, even if you are playing a male character. As a female all you need to do is get her relation points up and she will come after you, admiring your characters hair which opens up conversation options to move the relationship to "interested" (There are 3 steps apperently, like,interested,love) As a male if you don't flat out flirt with her early on in the relationship you get stuck in the friend zone until much later in the game when her side story is accomplished, and if you know who the character her side story is about that just further fuels my point.

I really wish there was a normal, not bizarr person in the game as a romance option. Maybe a Dalish elf who wants to explore the civiilized world? An anti hero thief or pick pocket whose really just does what she must to survive? I dont know...

I agree, I would love to have a companion that is truly good and pure and who will truly want to be your friend (for females pc) and a lover (for males pc).

To add oil on fire, Leliana isn't at all a good girl, if you bring her to the sacred urn, the guardian will tel you that Leliana never had a vision and was only bored so she imagined a story like this to get your attention. Other people said too that when you've harden her and bring her to the mage circle quest she actually hated to be there. Leliana seems to be a big hypocrite like Morrigan. Still, she stay by pc side if you romance her.

So yeah, I really wanna want a innocent cute girl who will beleive in mankind and will not like a "b****" / jerk or idiot if she had to choose betewen duty or love. Even, if Ferelden has dark times, it will be really nice to have someone beleive in real hope an love :innocent:  A girl like that is not all the time dumb and she can have guts! that's what like about character like that, she won't step aside in a conversation if it ****** her off.

But Bioware won't care imo, if you look at Ander... he's an aposta who killed again people to survive like Morrigan but makes jokes instead of sarcasm like was Morrigan. I hope, he will have more deph than this.

Modifié par Walina, 10 février 2010 - 06:35 .

[Maria Caliban]

Walina wrote...

To add oil on fire, Leliana isn't at all a good girl, if you bring her to the sacred urn, the guardian will tel you that Leliana never had a vision and was only bored so she imagined a story like this to get your attention.

I'm pretty sure I trust long-time companion over one-shot NPC.

[ejikvkaske]

Walina wrote...

I agree, I would love to have a companion that is truly good and pure and who will truly want to be your friend (for females pc) and a lover (for males pc).

To add oil on fire, Leliana isn't at all a good girl, if you bring her to the sacred urn, the guardian will tel you that Leliana never had a vision and was only bored so she imagined a story like this to get your attention. Other people said too that when you've harden her and bring her to the mage circle quest she actually hated to be there. Leliana seems to be a big hypocrite like Morrigan. Still, she stay by pc side if you romance her.

So yeah, I really wanna want a innocent cute girl who will beleive in mankind and will not like a "b****" / jerk or idiot if she had to choose betewen duty or love. Even, if Ferelden has dark times, it will be really nice to have someone beleive in real hope an love :innocent:  A girl like that is not all the time dumb and she can have guts! that's what like about character like that, she won't step aside in a conversation if it ****** her off.

But Bioware won't care imo, if you look at Ander... he's an aposta who killed again people to survive like Morrigan but makes jokes instead of sarcasm like was Morrigan. I hope, he will have more deph than this.

A character you describe goes against the major themes of DA. Don't forget, it's at least supposed to be a dark fantasy, and you can certainly find some elements to suggest that.

If you look at your existing group of companions, or even the entire cast of major characters, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who's completely "good". They all have personality flaws and skeletons in their closets. Even the most virtuous characters, like Duncan, occasionaly do "evil" deeds. A truly "good" character would feel too boring and vanilla, and fall short in comparison with the others. I suspect that Wynne and Leliana is as good as you're ever going to get in DA.

Modifié par ejikvkaske, 10 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[Sarielle]

Zugin wrote...

But
why not? Lies if they benefit the end.. and why not use sex if it works
in the situation? Wardens will kill, basically use slave recruitment
methods(thats what conscription is..) I like Liliana's method more then
a rack and some pliers.

Then no, she wouldn't be my personal definition of a "good girl" then. Nothing wrong with a character using them, but again...not a "good girl" in my book. To me, she'd need to be a little more...straightforward, I suppose? Less manipulative? But then, we all have very different opinions on what constitutes one, as this thread makes clear..

Maria Caliban wrote...

Walina wrote...

To add oil on fire, Leliana isn't at all a good girl, if you bring her to the sacred urn, the guardian will tel you that Leliana never had a vision and was only bored so she imagined a story like this to get your attention.

I'm pretty sure I trust long-time companion over one-shot NPC.

I realize you really have an ubercrush on the character....but I trust the NPC that knows a HELL of a lot of intimate details of all the characters' lives, when by rights, only the characters themselves should.

ejikvkaske wrote...

If you look at your existing group of companions, or even the entire cast of major characters, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who's completely "good". They all have personality flaws and skeletons in their closets.

Alistair?

And I don't think anybody's suggesting you can't have flaws or you're not "good." You can be "good" without being a Mary Sue.

Modifié par Sarielle, 10 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[Maria Caliban]

Sarielle wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Walina wrote...

To add oil on fire, Leliana isn't at all a good girl, if you bring her to the sacred urn, the guardian will tel you that Leliana never had a vision and was only bored so she imagined a story like this to get your attention.

I'm pretty sure I trust long-time companion over one-shot NPC.

I realize you really have an ubercrush on the character....but I trust the NPC that knows a HELL of a lot of intimate details of all the characters' lives, when by rights, only the characters themselves should.

Said NPC also suggested my PC felt guilty about her past, when she didn't. The NPC is probing you and your various companions; they are not all knowing.

[AngryFrozenWater]

This comes from a secret diary of one my player characters...



I think Leliana lied in the beginning as a kind of self protection. She was probably afraid to be send away and she happens to like the GW. If you start poking in her past she'll starts the "I lied to you" dialog. Instead of keeping up appearances she tells you the truth. She looks and sound shy during that dialog. Almost afraid. It's very hard not to believe her. BW did a great job on that.



About her sexuality. She is attracted to both genders. She doesn't trick the female GW into anything. She first politely asks you if you have a problem with that. She backs off if you do have problem. Of course she will be happy if you don't disapprove. But she only asks you if you show interest in that subject in the first place, IIRC.



About her religion... During the Gauntlet it is revealed that she didn't have a vision. Or was it merely a test? Leliana was upset about it. She would be if she lied, but she would also be upset if she didn't lie. She is insecure enough to trigger such a response. Her reaction revealed nothing to me.



She never tried to betray me, even though she could have used her skills to do so. Up until the epilogue I am under the illusion that she can be trusted. We lived happily ever after.



The end result to me is that, although she has a past, she is very honest in everything she does after the "I lied to you" dialog. Combine that with a great feeling of justice, a sensitive personality, and her looks... I think you wouldn't want a "good girl" (whatever it means). You've just found the best.

[AngryFrozenWater]

BTW: The fun part of a good RPG like DA:O is that all the assumptions I made in my post above will be true. In another playthrough as a male I can have a (brief) relation with Morrigan. Everything I assume about that relation will be true as well. The dialog options are flexible enough to give you the correct impression. Of course some playthroughs reveal things you didn't know before. You might be surprised about what Loghain tells you about his daughter, but that information is not available at the time you might want to marry her with Alistair. And that shoud be left out of the equation. Anyway... That's how I play it.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 février 2010 - 09:38 .

[Tekkaman Saber]

Walina wrote...

Acesahn wrote...

Alistar fits the Mr. Nice guy Bioware romance option to a T. He's funny, sensitive, a virgin... But as we changed tracks for the for the female's of bioware we get a whole different story. One's a seductress, who finds any kind thing you do throughout the course of the game (even saving people) a bad thing. Morrigan hints that she uses romance to use people and despises talks of love. Obviously not our good girl there, hell her allure is that she's the exact opposite of that. Then we got Leliana. Religous... kind... at first glance. Of course when you find out she used to be a spy who specialized in becoming whatever type of woman her target desired and practically boasts she can bag any man. File that under "ThingsI would have rather not known about." Oh and she flat out prefers women, even if you are playing a male character. As a female all you need to do is get her relation points up and she will come after you, admiring your characters hair which opens up conversation options to move the relationship to "interested" (There are 3 steps apperently, like,interested,love) As a male if you don't flat out flirt with her early on in the relationship you get stuck in the friend zone until much later in the game when her side story is accomplished, and if you know who the character her side story is about that just further fuels my point.

I really wish there was a normal, not bizarr person in the game as a romance option. Maybe a Dalish elf who wants to explore the civiilized world? An anti hero thief or pick pocket whose really just does what she must to survive? I dont know...

I agree, I would love to have a companion that is truly good and pure and who will truly want to be your friend (for females pc) and a lover (for males pc).

To add oil on fire, Leliana isn't at all a good girl, if you bring her to the sacred urn, the guardian will tel you that Leliana never had a vision and was only bored so she imagined a story like this to get your attention. Other people said too that when you've harden her and bring her to the mage circle quest she actually hated to be there. Leliana seems to be a big hypocrite like Morrigan. Still, she stay by pc side if you romance her.

So yeah, I really wanna want a innocent cute girl who will beleive in mankind and will not like a "b****" / jerk or idiot if she had to choose betewen duty or love. Even, if Ferelden has dark times, it will be really nice to have someone beleive in real hope an love :innocent:  A girl like that is not all the time dumb and she can have guts! that's what like about character like that, she won't step aside in a conversation if it ****** her off.

But Bioware won't care imo, if you look at Ander... he's an aposta who killed again people to survive like Morrigan but makes jokes instead of sarcasm like was Morrigan. I hope, he will have more deph than this.

It' seems to me that bioware followed the romance archetypes but sadly they did not include a full roster for each gender.

e.g.
The maiden = Alistair irony
The harlot = Zevran
The Tsundere = Morrigan
The stalker = Leliana (Seriosuly I had my female mage say no to her on atleast three occasions and the damn romance wouldn't end)

Being honest even though she was a whineing minny at times, Aerie was my favorite romanceable companion in baldurs gate and I was abit sad that a female character like her wa snot implemented.
Perhaps adaptive character models could of been used...
e.g. straight characters such as Alistair or Morrigan could have a different character model depending on the pc's gender.....
Mainly because I would of like the idea of having my naive human noble female getting seduced by a dark suspected malificar (after all the chantry tends to lump malificar and apostates in the same barrel.)

Modifié par Tekkaman Saber, 10 février 2010 - 10:15 .

[Tekkaman Saber]

Since my post won't edit I have made a slight adjustment.



Morrigan = Tsundere

Leliana = the stalker (She does not understand the menaing of no and seems to think that being nice= romatically interested)

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. I hated the romance options for DA:O.



Leliana seems sweet and romantic, and I enjoyed the romance at first … but the banter with other party members & revelations about her past seem to put the lie to much of what she says. She’s either a broken bird who isn’t right in the head … or she lies to everyone, maybe even herself, and is even more manipulative than Morrigan. Neither of these seem appealing to me in the long run. What kind of even remotely stable & strong guy would want to be around either of those two options Leliana wise?



OT wise, it makes sense that she would be more attracted to women … after all she used men, seducing them and then sometimes killing them. She could never afford to get emotionally attached to one. Sex with men would have just been part of that game. However, with her mentor and other women she was “safer” and could be more open, honest, and even caring. Physical intimacy would have been very different because of that.



Morrigan is just dumb and pig headed. I don’t mind strong women, in fact I like them! However Morrigan isn’t strong at all, she’s just stubborn about hiding her weaknesses and insecurities and pretending that this makes her some kind of survival of the fittest paragon. I find her willful blindness to be the most telling feature of her personality and again find it unlikely to appeal to most strong minded PCs.



The way she stubbornly disapproves of nearly every non-selfish action in the game is just silly. “Look Morrigan, I’m playing nice with this smith so that he’ll fix the armor for the militia here. We are going to need an army if we are a) going to pry the throne from Loghain’s bloody hands and going to defeat the darkspawn just like we talked about at your mother’s hut. If we let everyone die we will achieve neither.” … Morrigan disapproves … “Fine I’ll slap you around in camp a bit later on to make you happy again.” Really that’s the way it felt to me. Talk about negative female stereotypes.



Further, a really big deal is made about how elves consider someone who shacks up romantically with a human to be somewhat traitorous since any resulting child would be human. My first playthrough was as a male elf … and I really wanted a romance option that took that into consideration. Having both romanceable women be human felt really distasteful in that first game and set a negative tone for me experience wise.



Reading here I see that I wasn’t the only one who wished that the Dale Elf Keeper / Apprentice be romanceable even if she wasn’t an in party NPC. It would have fixed at least one big hole in that story relationship wise.



Overall, elf thing aside, it would have been really really really nice if there had been at least one mostly sane girl NPC who was romanceable. To be clear I’m not saying that we needed a “nice” girl, but one who hadn’t been broken by their past, because ultimately both Morrigan and Leliana are exactly that, broken birds … just like Aerie was back in BGII. Where are the healthy women who stand up for themselves, like the Cousland mother in the noble origin? Imagine having a woman like that in your party … except younger and not your mom of course. I don’t need “innocent” or “nice” just someone who’s stable and unlikely to murder my PC in his sleep based on their past.

[fchopin]

Sarielle wrote...

fchopin wrote...

I think bioware did a good job for the romance options, you get to choose whatever your preference.

Like
everyone else am greedy so if there was more options that would be
great but I don’t see how a good girl would fit in the team, we need
killers in our team and there is no way killers would be considered
good.

-facepalm- "Good" does not necessarily means "screams and runs from spiders." ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

It seams to me that you want a good girl to cook when in camp and say nice things but nothing else.
 
I personally would not like such a person in my team as I need killers in my team, killers are not nice people what ever you say as they have to be ruthless and always win no matter the situation.
 
Leliana is about the best we will get when it comes to good girls, she is a killer at heart but can also be nice.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

I think AngryFrozenWater hit bull's eye with Leliana's description. I've felt exactly the same during my playtrough.

[Liquidcz]

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote...

Leliana seems sweet and romantic, and I enjoyed the romance at first … but the banter with other party members & revelations about her past seem to put the lie to much of what she says. She’s either a broken bird who isn’t right in the head … or she lies to everyone, maybe even herself, and is even more manipulative than Morrigan. Neither of these seem appealing to me in the long run. What kind of even remotely stable & strong guy would want to be around either of those two options Leliana wise?

So people cannot make evil and wrong things in the past, then realize that and try to change?

[mousestalker]

What I really like is how mutable the NPC's are. They are shaped by the decisions and conversational choices you make. Loghain can come across as a right bastard or as somewhat sympathetic. Lelianna can be the psycho ex girl friend from hell or attractive, attentive, sensitive and sweet.



My real problem is the complete lack of unbroken characters. It seems as though every companion you can have comes from a seriously broken background. The only possible exceptions are Dog and Shale. Having a companion with an intact family would be a refreshing novelty.



It all depends upon how you play the game.

[fchopin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

This comes from a secret diary of one my player characters...

I think Leliana lied in the beginning as a kind of self protection. She was probably afraid to be send away and she happens to like the GW. If you start poking in her past she'll starts the "I lied to you" dialog. Instead of keeping up appearances she tells you the truth. She looks and sound shy during that dialog. Almost afraid. It's very hard not to believe her. BW did a great job on that.

About her sexuality. She is attracted to both genders. She doesn't trick the female GW into anything. She first politely asks you if you have a problem with that. She backs off if you do have problem. Of course she will be happy if you don't disapprove. But she only asks you if you show interest in that subject in the first place, IIRC.

About her religion... During the Gauntlet it is revealed that she didn't have a vision. Or was it merely a test? Leliana was upset about it. She would be if she lied, but she would also be upset if she didn't lie. She is insecure enough to trigger such a response. Her reaction revealed nothing to me.

She never tried to betray me, even though she could have used her skills to do so. Up until the epilogue I am under the illusion that she can be trusted. We lived happily ever after.

The end result to me is that, although she has a past, she is very honest in everything she does after the "I lied to you" dialog. Combine that with a great feeling of justice, a sensitive personality, and her looks... I think you wouldn't want a "good girl" (whatever it means). You've just found the best.

Nice to see you again, and nice to see you like DA:O

[Jaymo147]

I look at Leliana as the good girl

[SuperMedbh]

Leliana is an interesting character, enough that I might try running a male character sometime just to see how the romance goes. But by "interesting", I mean from a player's point of view. As someone said in another thread about Cullen, "love doesn't fix crazy".



One thing I like about her is that it's never entirely clear if she's being honest with you. Remember the bit where she's talking about how bards get into people's confidences by just listening? She adds something to the effect that everyone likes to imagine that someone cares about them. As the response I liked said, at least violence is honest. And yes, there is the "I lied to you" confession. But doesn't she say "No more lies between us, at least not in this"?



Leliana strikes me as someone who is so accustomed to deceit that she doesn't even know when she's telling the truth.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Liquidcz wrote...

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote...

Leliana seems sweet and romantic, and I enjoyed the romance at first … but the banter with other party members & revelations about her past seem to put the lie to much of what she says. She’s either a broken bird who isn’t right in the head … or she lies to everyone, maybe even herself, and is even more manipulative than Morrigan. Neither of these seem appealing to me in the long run. What kind of even remotely stable & strong guy would want to be around either of those two options Leliana wise?

So people cannot make evil and wrong things in the past, then realize that and try to change?

Sure, but Leliana never does that in a healthy way.

Honestly I think that the major problem she suffers from is a writing disconnect.  The dialogue in her romance simply doesn't go well with the companion banter.  I suspect that different folks wrote the two and that the net result is something that makes her looked even more messed up in the head than she seems at first.

A great example is that she reveals far more about her sorded past in random bylines to Alistar than she ever does to your Warden in the romance.  It's especially creepy when she talks about stealth and not having to worry about being remembered if the people she sleeps with wind up dead ... and then you wake up after sleeping with her to find her watching you.

There were parts of the romance that I really liked ... but the more of the game I saw the more I just thought to myself "creepy" when she would do or say certain things.

Redemption is a good storyline ... and it's nice that they gave Lel an oppertunity to fail at it ... but I find it more compelling when the character being written about has a stronger personality and is more honest about the whole thing.  I never really got the sense that Lel was honest with the Warden ... or herself sometimes ... and her character came off as terribly indecisive and weak most of the time.