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[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Part of the problem is that some people dismiss all mages as being bad for the actions of a few. We don't meet the hundreds or thousands of mages in the Gallows Prison, we encounter a relatively small fraction. If you want to be a templar, then you should decide what type of templar you want to be.

If family is a concern, being a templar will put you into opposition with Bethany (temporarily). Bethany does ask Hawke not to make her choose between her family and her people, if you consider siding with the templars against the Kirkwall Circle. I honestly don't know why Hawke would side with the templars if Bethany is a Circle mage since Meredith orders the execution of all Circle mages.

Well, we don't know how many mages there are.  No, we don't meet all of them.  The problem is that of the ones we meet 99% are insane.  And we do meet a lot of mages.

As for who to side with, I've said this before, but I'll repeat it:  Although I went into that finale ready to slaughter every mage I saw, I did side with the mages.  The only reason I did so was because of WHY Meredith wanted to annul the Circle - she called for Anullment because of Anders.  Anders, who is NOT a Circle mage.  To me, although the mage circle in Kirkwall absolutely deserved to be purged - if not complete anullment, certainly a harsh test of every mage and the destruction of every blood mage/abomination - they did not deserve to be anulled for that.

It really bothered me that she said nothing about Anders, when he was standing right there.  She ignored the criminal, and went after the Circle for the crime Anders committed.  I couldn't accept that.  So I sided with the mages.

[LobselVith8]

True, we don't know how many mages there are, but Kirkwall and Starkhaven are the two Circles in the Free Marches, and the Circle of Magi in Starkhaven burned down. I'd estimate that there are hundreds, or possibly thousands, of mages locked up in the Kirkwall Circle. As for the ones that we encounter, they don't represent all the mages of Kirkwall. I see no reason to condemn them all for the actions of a few.

[Mnemnosyne]

LobselVith8 wrote...

"How few good mages we encounter"? We meet a small portion of the mages, and Meredith orders the genocide of the entire Circle for something they are completely innocent of - and the Knight-Commander knows it. She orders the execution of the youngest apprentice to the eldest mage, and they are innocent. I don't see how the actions of a minority should condemn them all. Why murder hundreds or thousands of innocent people because we ran into a handful of bad mages?

Show, don't tell.  The game can babble on about there being innocent mages all it wants, but unless it shows me innocent mages, they don't exist as far as I am concerned.  If I never see them, they aren't there.

In the final battle, if you side with the mages, how many mages are standing at your side helping?  First there's a few, then Orsino does his crazy thing and...there aren't any more.  Not. A. One.  So of all these 'hundreds' of mages, not one of them stays sane, doesn't turn into an abomination, and fights to help.  There are clearly no mages there worth helping.

Show me some mages worth helping, show me there really are good mages that won't let themselves be possessed by demons, and so on.  But really, what can you expect from a Circle of Magi where Orsino is First Enchanter?  Corrupt at the top, corrupt all the way down.  It is hardly any wonder every mage in Kirkwall is crazy or evil, when their leader is.

[LobselVith8]

Koyasha wrote...

Show, don't tell.  The game can babble on about there being innocent mages all it wants, but unless it shows me innocent mages, they don't exist as far as I am concerned.  If I never see them, they aren't there.

You never saw Bethany? You never heard Alain admit he was being raped in Act II? You never saw Karl, who begged for Anders to kill him instead of living life as a "templar puppet"? You didn't see the several mages who don't use blood magic and fight to defend themselves against the templars? Was Ella guilty because Ser Alrik wanted to make her tranquil and rape her? You get The Underground Railroad from the mage who only wants to live a life outside of Chantry servitude? You never met Feynriel? I don't see how you can claim that there are no good mages in DA2.

Koyasha wrote...

In the final battle, if you side with the mages, how many mages are standing at your side helping?  First there's a few, then Orsino does his crazy thing and...there aren't any more.  Not. A. One.  So of all these 'hundreds' of mages, not one of them stays sane, doesn't turn into an abomination, and fights to help.  There are clearly no mages there worth helping.

There aren't hundreds or thousands of mages in the room with you, and Varric makes it explicitly clear that the many mages survived and told about what happened, which is why Hawke becomes a hero for siding with the mages and how the story shows that 'the mighty templars could be defied." I don't see the purpose in supporting the genocide of hundreds or thousands of innocent people for something they didn't do.

Koyasha wrote...

Show me some mages worth helping, show me there really are good mages that won't let themselves be possessed by demons, and so on.  But really, what can you expect from a Circle of Magi where Orsino is First Enchanter?  Corrupt at the top, corrupt all the way down.  It is hardly any wonder every mage in Kirkwall is crazy or evil, when their leader is.

That's asinine. Hundreds or thousands of men, women, and children aren't guilty simply because their representative is.

[Camenae]

There is no need to call people "asinine" just because you disagree with what they're saying, however strongly your disagreement.

[frylock23]

I fully intended to side with the templars in my second playthrough but I couldn't.

As has been mentioned, not every mage is guilty but Meredith's solution will treat them all like they are. You're talking about the slaughter of very young children who just learned they had magic and had no time to go one way or the other with it. Not only that, but Meredith does not have the authority to order the Rite of Annulment on her own - she knows it, and so should every other templar there. Even the templars at the Circle in Ferelden were unwilling to just carry out the Rite without the agreement of a grand mother, and they were faced with what was clearly an insane abomination who was either slaughtering innocent mages or forcing them into becoming abominations. That was a much clearer threat than the nebulous one Meredith was citing. Her reasoning behind declaring the Annulment gets even weaker when you consider that her justification - the destruction of the Chantry - was carried out by an apostate who had no real, clearly established connection to the Circle she was blaming. In that light, the Rite of Annulment becomes a genocidal act of revenge on Meredith's part rather than a justified punishment, particularly since the object of her ire, Anders, is sitting right there waiting for her to take him away.

[Huntress]

I did find many mages that did not turn to demons and 1 had blood magic.Still this 1 mage was confused, missguided of the difference btw demon and spirit but, she never turned to a demon.

In my runs I have helped: 2 mage from slavers, 2 from templars, 1 from crazoids blood mages, my sister/my mage. I'm probably missing 1 or 2 but, thats how many I have seen that are not evil, and, they just want to live. Anders is not been counted in here because he is unstable and merill is a blood mage.So from my team 2 mages are out of the counts and my father. The mages that try to save city from qunaris: 8 or so? none turned to demons, defending the mage, none turned to demons only orsino, they were like what? 10 to 12?

Somewhat good templars: 1 templar that want to keep the old ways, 1 that want to keep mages in the gallows ignoring what could happen the moment this mage is left there ( made tranquil) 1 templar looking for lost mages, my brother/King alistair Am probably missing 1-2 good templars but I haven't found them in my runs.


2 or 3 of this templars sided with you against Meredith.

Modifié par Huntress, 02 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[frylock23]

"Show me some mages worth helping, show me there really are good mages that won't let themselves be possessed by demons, and so on. But really, what can you expect from a Circle of Magi where Orsino is First Enchanter? Corrupt at the top, corrupt all the way down. It is hardly any wonder every mage in Kirkwall is crazy or evil, when their leader is."

Bethany - she spends years in the Kirkwall Circle under Orsino's guidance without becoming corrupt.

Hawke's father - We'll assume that he was a major part of Hawke's life for easily more than 10 years.

Alain - Pulled himself back from the brink and fights with you when you save the mages

The apprentice children - Bethany mentions teaching some kids in her letter home

Feynriel - goes to the Dalish and is wise enough to leave them when he realizes that they can't help him control his magic and he goes where he can learn

Hawke - If Hawke is a mage, only you can know how corrupt he/she is, but you don't ever get the option to make Hawke a demon-possesed abomination.

Maretheri - Only becomes an abomination to save Merril and then throws herself on the party's sword essentially acting honorably until the end

Emile - He may be a drunken sot, but he's also one of the uncorrupted mages standing with you at the very end.

One of the mage-templar ambushes at the end - a group of 5 or 6 mages fighting a squad of templars. Throughout the whole fight, not a single shade or demon pops up hinting rather strongly that these mages are clean.

During the cut scene of the first wave of templars - Again, I see lots of mages dying, but I don't see blood magic or demon summoning in that cut scene. I do see plenty of ice, fire and force effects though.

Also, when you confront the conspiracy - There a few mages who remain cowering in the background rather than join Grace and her group in their attempt to kill you. They never become targets at all.

The girl you save from Alrik. She never became an abomination. not even when Janders threatens her.

In short, the good mages are in the story, but they never figure prominently. I think the whole point of the that is to try to set the player up to have trouble siding with either faction at the end particularly when all of DA:O sets the player up to feel like mages are misunderstood at best and unjustly treated like lepers at worst.

[Arppis]

Camenae wrote...

There is no need to call people "asinine" just because you disagree with what they're saying, however strongly your disagreement.

Calling people with names just shows that they are losing the argument.

[Mnemnosyne]

The situation in which Meredith chooses to call for annulment is...unfortunate, at best. But I am not certain she is wrong in wanting to do so, in Kirkwall at least. In any other city in Thedas, I would likely side with the mages, but the Kirkwall circle is quite clearly heavily corrupt. If not for Anders interfering, Meredith would have found the evidence that was almost certainly there, and then would have been able to call for the Rite of Annulment with full evidence backing her up.

I do not like the ending or the ridiculous method in which she calls for the rite, but it does fit with her being crazy by that point. It would have made much more sense if she had executed Anders on the spot, then proceeded with her search, imprisoning every mage in Kirkwall and thoroughly searching for the evidence that the entire circle is irredemable, and then invoke the rite of annulment. Had she not been deeply influenced by the idol at that point, it is likely she would have done just that, and she would have been completely justified in doing so.

None of that excuses the behavior of templars like Ser Alrik, or even justify Meredith's breaking Chantry law by making mages who had passed their Harrowing into tranquil mages, though. As much as the mages of Kirkwall are shown to be corrupt and rotten, so are the Templars of Kirkwall.

I hate having to argue this point because I normally agree with the mages wholeheartedly and am completely opposed to the templar organization, but Kirkwall is a perfect example of a Circle that is completely twisted to the core. There are reasons for that, including the choice of location and the Templars' own corruption, but despite there being reasons, it doesn't change the fact that it is.

[frylock23]

"There is no need to call people "asinine" just because you disagree with what they're saying, however strongly your disagreement."

Calling someone's argument asinine isn't the same as calling them asinine.

[Huntress]

The moment you allow meredith to kill mages in Kirwall because of "they might be blood mages", the rest of the other circle towers templars will do the same. Every action has a reaction keep that on mind.

[frylock23]

"The situation in which Meredith chooses to call for annulment is...unfortunate, at best. But I am not certain she is wrong in wanting to do so, in Kirkwall at least. In any other city in Thedas, I would likely side with the mages, but the Kirkwall circle is quite clearly heavily corrupt. If not for Anders interfering, Meredith would have found the evidence that was almost certainly there, and then would have been able to call for the Rite of Annulment with full evidence backing her up."

Even so, we can't know. Meredith's position basically turns our notion of justice on its head. Instead of "innocent until proven guilty;" she's taking the "guilty until proven innocent" approach which is a tyrant's approach. For that reason alone I cannot side with her. And by then, it's clear to me that she's made life in the Circle intolerable for most any human being. She's her own worst enemy because she's created conditions that could best be described as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. "

This almost sums up the situation perfectly.  The mages are being forced to give up their liberties, what few they have, in order to satisfy Meredith's need for safety.  Except Meredith's ways buy neither liberty nor safety for anyone.

Modifié par frylock23, 02 avril 2011 - 07:48 .

[Mnemnosyne]

One thing I suppose I should note is that the corruption of the circle - specifically with Orsino - does not become evident until after this decision is made. As far as Hawke is aware when she has to make the decision, Orsino isn't crazy, evil, corrupt, whatever, and therefore it is reasonable to presume the Circle is not as corrupt as Meredith (rightly) believes it is. The 'most of them are innocent' angle is entirely reasonable for Hawke to believe since she hasn't personally seen otherwise.

So Meredith turns out to be right about Orsino and the Circle in general, but we only learn that after the fact. At the decision point, Hawke just sees her behaving completely irrationally, so it's true that right then, there is almost no logical reason to side with her.

[LobselVith8]

There is no evidence of any "corruption" in the Circle. Committing genocide against the Circle for the actions of a former Grey Warden standing right in front of her isn't excused simply because of the behavior of their First Enchanter. Orsino's actions don't condemn the entire Circle of Kirkwall. Hundreds or thousands of mages aren't condemned simply because of one, single, solitary man.

[The Baconer]

If you think following through on Meredith's Rite of Annulment is justifiable, I don't see how it's any different than having the opinion that we should just gas all the people in our prisons. We don't really know or care how many of them could be wrongfully incarcerated anyway, right? Means to an end, right?

Modifié par The Baconer, 02 avril 2011 - 08:01 .

[lx_theo]

Pull a Carver

[Torax]

The only real flaw of it all is that Meredith calls the Right of Annulment. If they played up Orsino being corrupt and had a faction of the circle on his side? That would have been probably better than her calling the Genocide of every mage. Potentially either the player character or their sister not to mention at least one of your friends. This just makes the RP of it harder and makes it more like meta gaming the achievement.

Templars could have been more like the protection, law and order. Except that they already have the Guard that towards the end was the only ones caring about the citizens. Granted both the Templars and the Guards failed on the Investigation that matters most to you as a player for motivation. That is another part. One possible reason to support them. As Viscount you could vow that no one will die to Blood Magic on your watch. Even if regardless you leave the city at the end of the story..

Modifié par Torax, 02 avril 2011 - 08:10 .

[noxsachi]

Well if you are reading the Enigma of Kirkwall entries, as well as the note from Orsino to Quentin, it is clear that something is rotten in the state of Den...Kirkwall.

And while Hawke is a mage, and I only play mage Hawkes, I always play it out as that her father was from the Circle (I pretty much believe he is with Ser Carver letting him leave) and I see his training in the Circle, and passing that on to his daughters, is why Hawke is the good and anti-blood magic mage she is. She views the Circle in some form as necessary, although she sees the situation in Kirkwall as an extreme.

When the point of decision comes, she had just witnessed a friend who advocated mage freedom performing a horrible act of violence. Her only other mage reference point is the insane Merrill who thinks demons are wonderful. She suspects someone in the Circle, who is high enough to get access to forbidden texts, is involved in her mother's murder. As she did not believe in abolition of the Circle anyway...siding with what Anders wanted is out. She tied her hands, and as she says to Merrill, violence is coming to the Kirkwall Circle anyway. She would rather have a part in mitigating and rebuilding what comes after. As well as has kinda been pointed out, you can come to care about the welfare of Kirkwall, and siding with the Templar is about protecting your home from the madness that Anders and Meredith unleashed upon it.

[frylock23]

Well, to be fair, on my first playthrough I was within a hair of siding with the templars thanks to Anders deep betrayal. But I had Bethany in the Circle, and I wasn't going to condemn her along with all the others who might be innocent just to feel better about how Anders treated me.

[Dark-sider77]

I could think of a couple of reasons, but i think only when they were all put together could i side with the Templars from a roleplaying stance.

It is made pretty clear that the Circle will be annulled no matter what side Hawke picks, just because there are so many Templars in Kirkwall. So Hawke could side with the Templar order just to bring a quicker end to the conflict, thereby limiting the amount of damage that the city itself will suffer. Hawke may feel that siding with the mages would only further draw out the process of annulment, risking the entire city of Kirkwall just so a few more mages could escape.

Also knowing that the Templars are in complete control, Hawke may feel that siding with the order is the best chance at getting the Templars to grant some mercy. You do get to save a few mages and your sister if she is in the circle, and when Orsino tries to appeal to Meridith in the Gallows courtyard Hawke can suggest that its not too late and that the circle can still be saved (Meridith doesn't even listen to Hawke, but thats because she is crazy Meridith, the other Templars like Cullen seem to value Hawke's input). Meanwhile, if you side against the templars they have very little reason to listen to the Champion, all Hawke can do is fight and hope some mages escape the Templar's wrath.

Finally a bit of selfishness and hopelesness will help Hawke feel he has no choice but to side with the Templars. These two aspects don't have to be Hawke's primary motivation to side with the Templars, but coupled with other reasons they could help convince Hawke to aid the Templars.

Hoplessness because Hawke fights a losing battle by siding with the Mages, even in advance he may understand that the chances of mage victory are nonexistant. Hawke will either die and destroy the lives of all of his friends at the same time, or esacpe only to find himself a Chantry fugitive. Even if he esacpes, some of his friends will end up losing their livleyhoods as well, after all they will have all been guilty of a few major crimes against the Chantry and its Templars.
Then there is selfishness, Hawke has a pretty nice life in Kirkwall, if he sides with the mages then he will have to give all that up. Hawke may be in no hurry to relive the experience of fleeing from home like he did during the blight.

[Huntress]

Wow.. I didn't know you could fight for hoplessness, guess anyone who want a better life should stop right now and take a look at the big picture, even if you work for 24 hours today, you'll not make enough to buy a blanket to keep you warm for tomorrow night.
Oh and please stop thinking about food, thats out of the question, I'll eat enough for both of us.

Modifié par Huntress, 02 avril 2011 - 08:55 .

[ddv.rsa]

Eire Icon wrote...

But surely your sister being a mage would play a part? You're in essence condemning her by supporting Meredith ?

EDIT - in relation to the post directly above. From my own point of view when playing I make decisions with the view of the character not knowing what the future will bring. Regardless of any outcome relating to Bethany, surely it stands to reason that siding with the templars places her in danger

It does put her in danger, but at this point the whole world is at stake. Many people's sisters, not just yours. What happens in Kirkwall is almost by the way. Because of Anders, everyone is forced to choose  a side in a world war. You're choosing a lot more than whether or not you agree with Meredith's rite of annulment.

As a templar even Carver is more than willing to side with Meredith.

[The Baconer]

ddv.rsa wrote...
As a templar even Carver is more than willing to side with Meredith.

Oh boy, that's sure surprising.

[Huntress]

By siding with meredith, Magehawk will get what she/he signed for. Not only having a future grim but is making 100% sure that other circles take a look at kirkwall and do the same. Is gonna be "one size fit them all".