1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Camenae]

This is getting way too serious. Let's go over to the Large Bosoms thread and troll that instead!

[Darth Krytie]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Well, if you won't listen to sound arguments and fair reasoning,  then it's because he said so. Christ on a ******. In this argument, spoiler alert, he wins. Every time. Let it go.

...can I quote the end of that in my sig if I attribute you properly? I love it. 

lol, sure. Have at it.

[Well]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Better than what?  Give me a what or you have no argument.  Could a better system exist? Yes.  Is it likely?  I wouldn't think so, but there's a lot going on that we aren't aware of.

The Circles seem to have emancipated themselves. I don't see why the mages couldn't develop a better system. Why does it have to be Chantry domination or anarchy? 

Vormaerin wrote...

Besides, what makes you certain mages aren't cursed?  The ability to go insane pretty much guaranteed unless carefully trained not to is not exactly a blessing in most peoples' minds.

My ability not to condemn all mages for the actions of some.

You should try that with Templars sometime.Since you paint all with the same broad brush.Meridith,Anders, and Arishok are cut from the same cloth.No compromise.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Exactly right.  There is no evidence that even if the circle were totally corrupted (and even Cullen admits it's not) that simply locking up the mages and hiding the key wouldn't work.  After all the situation (as Cullen himself admits) was far more dire in Fereldan and Gregoire was willing to wait (abeit uneasily and with forboding).  The Grey Warden's arrival gave Gregoire a legal loophole and he used it (and rightfully so).  There is nothng that happened in Kirkwell that screams "emergency", we must annull the circle now (unlike Fereldan).

Difference between something that is justified or unjustified and something that is legal or illegal.

You can, and I'd 100% agree with you, say that Meredith's invocation of the rite was unjustified. That does not mean it's illegal and since the lead writer said it isn't, then it isn't. I'll take his word over anyone else's, including people in the game.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[Lucy Glitter]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm sorry, am I in the position of defending the templars, now? You're going to sit there with your arms crossed because the fanfic you got going in your head makes more sense to you? 

[sphinxess]

It seems pretty clear though - the rules according to the game
Mages are prisoners -
Tranquil ane not mages, prisoners or slaves -

Huh sounds like a improvement - can't understand why all those dumb Mages fight so hard against being made tranquil - they are so much more free

[LobselVith8]

Well wrote...

You should try that with Templars sometime.Since you paint all with the same broad brush.Meridith,Anders, and Arishok are cut from the same cloth.No compromise.

I don't think all templars are evil, and I've gone on the record as saying there are good templars, Ser Thrask being one of the recent. I disagree with the Chantry controlled Circles, however.

Am I the only person curious why Leliana, as Nightingale, seems to take a harsh view of magic and mages in DA2? Nobody wanted to ask David Gaider about that besides me, I see.

[AlexXIV]

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If I am wrong I would really like to see examples and links to prove that. Because this is a major concern for me.

The point is that the Tranquil mage is still intelligent and still has free will.  He just has little incentive to use it.   If a templar told my mage to go make a magic gewgaw for his girlfriend, I might say  "nah, I'd rather take a nap for fun"  (at least, in a legally administered circle).

The Tranquil mage would consider it dispassionately, determine he has no other tasks to occupy his time and likely agree.  But he could say no if he had an intellectual reason to do so.

I am sorry but I find the notion that their freedom is not stripped from them, just their desire to be free a bit ... hypocrite. I mean just think about it how many things happen in the world because people want to be free of something. We could make every man and woman tranquil and then live happily ever after? If you can even be happy without emotion ... I am just losing my faith into the writers of DA and in the community here as well.

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

After all the situation (as Cullen himself admits) was far more dire in Fereldan and Gregoire was willing to wait (abeit uneasily and with forboding).  The Grey Warden's arrival gave Gregoire a legal loophole and he used it (and rightfully so).  There is nothng that happened in Kirkwell that screams "emergency", we must annull the circle now (unlike Fereldan).

-Polaris

Uhh, I think you are making an interpretation that isn't justified.  Gregoire didn't think he had the power with the forces at hand to resolve the situation.  He locked the door and wouldn't let anyone in or out because his forces had been decimated.   He, properly, sent to the Grand Cleric. for authority to execute the rite, but also for the resources to do so.

The other templars, especially the quartermaster, are shocked anyone survived in there.  Meredith, aside from being insane, is well aware that she has more than enough power to deal with the circle without help.

[IanPolaris]

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
There are other codex entries (specifically dealing with the Rite of Annulment) that clearly state that that the Grand Cleric (not any Templar parallel rank but the GRAND CLERIC) is the only one that has the authority to issue a Rite of Annulment.  Since you can't tell me where KC Meridith falls in the Chantry Chain of Command (and you admit that she doesn't), then you are contradicting your own game lore....and common sense.

Perhaps you mean dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Rite_of_Annulment?

The one that says Grand Clerics have the authority to issue a Rite of Annulment, but which doesn't say what happens when a Grand Cleric dies? Or what rights a Knight-Commander possesses? And there is no "chain of command"-- that codex defined the heirarchy of a religious order, not a military unit. A religious order that is part of a fantasy world, and one where "common sense" -- especially the brand you've been peddling -- need not apply.

A Hiearchy means a chain of command.  If authority to do an act is given to one member in that hierarchy, it says there at least in the real world unless specifically noted otherwise.  The codex entries clearly say that the final authority over the fate of the circle (not it's day to day regulation mind) is a clerical one specifically via the Grand Cleric.  If you want to change that, fine.  But understand that you are changing your own lore....and 'common sense' (i.e. verisimilude) is part of that....but I get that it was inconvenient for the story you wanted to tell (and DA2 really was just a narrative...PC choices meant virtually nothing).

Let me ask you this:  If a KC can do whatever they like (as long as they can remove the Grand Cleric first), then are there any meaningful checks to Templar power at all?

I don't think so.

I'm sorry, am I in the position of defending the templars, now? You're going to sit there with your arms crossed because the fanfic you got going in your head makes more sense to you? To answer your question: yes, I imagine in a theoretical world if a Knight-Commander could conspire to remove a Grand Cleric, and also keep any clear successor from manifesting, they would be able to do as they please with the Circle of Magi-- subject to scrutiny once the Divine got wind of it, no doubt. Or does the possibility of political scheming make no sense to you? Shall I go into the intricacies of authority between the Grand Clerics and the Divine, as well? Or did the fact such things are not all explicitly laid out mean you've decided how it works already?

Why not?  You've been defending the Templars for months now.  I can only guess it's because far too many people playing the game decided to side with the mages the first time around.  As for my response to the above, thank you for illustrating my point.  Human beings being what they are will invariably abuse that authority they are given to lengths far beyond what was oiginally intended.  That doesn't just apply to Tevinter Magisters.

If you wish to ask for clarification, do so. Otherwise, I'd suggest you maintain the notion that you are speculating, and basing at least part of that speculation on the opinions of in-world characters (vis a vis the codex or not). You are free to draw what judgements from that you wish-- whether it be that the templars are a horribly corrupt organization or what have you. We have intentionally left that part of the page blank.

Enjoy.

You haven't.  The illustration of mages (and who's bright idea was it to put a circle of mages on top of the magical equivalent of a toxic waste dump anyway) in DA2 is particularly one sided which tells me tha you aren't happy leaving the page blank, but thats just my biased and ill thought opinion, obviously.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

After all the situation (as Cullen himself admits) was far more dire in Fereldan and Gregoire was willing to wait (abeit uneasily and with forboding).  The Grey Warden's arrival gave Gregoire a legal loophole and he used it (and rightfully so).  There is nothng that happened in Kirkwell that screams "emergency", we must annull the circle now (unlike Fereldan).

-Polaris

Uhh, I think you are making an interpretation that isn't justified.  Gregoire didn't think he had the power with the forces at hand to resolve the situation.  He locked the door and wouldn't let anyone in or out because his forces had been decimated.   He, properly, sent to the Grand Cleric. for authority to execute the rite, but also for the resources to do so.

The other templars, especially the quartermaster, are shocked anyone survived in there.  Meredith, aside from being insane, is well aware that she has more than enough power to deal with the circle without help.

No.  Gregoire doesn't think he has the needed forces.  In that you are completely correct, but he is also waiting for the Rite of Annulment from Denerim and will not move without it.  He makes that painfully clear (but won't stop the Grey Warden who exists outside Chantry authority giving him a much needed loophole).

-Polaris

[Vormaerin]

AlexXIV wrote...

I am sorry but I find the notion that their freedom is not stripped from them, just their desire to be free a bit ... hypocrite. I mean just think about it how many things happen in the world because people want to be free of something. We could make every man and woman tranquil and then live happily ever after? If you can even be happy without emotion ... I am just losing my faith into the writers of DA and in the community here as well.

Because you are making assumptions about that Tranquility means.  They are obviously NOT stripped of desire.  The Tranquil in various places make comments like "this is uncomfortable" or "please be quiet" or "I'd rather not die"

They obviously have /desires/ of some sort.  But not the full range of emotions that normal people have.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 03 avril 2011 - 07:58 .

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

but thats just my biased and ill thought opinion, obviously.

-Polaris

At least you're self aware.

[Darth Krytie]

@IanPolaris

The problem is that you're not making sound judgements regarding the sources of the Codex entries. These entries are not law books which spell things out. These are written by historians and pamphlet makers. I can tell you from personal experience that a book discussing how things came to be or why things are is a whole different matter than a book containing laws, rules and regulations. Fine details is one of the things the former lacks in regards to the latter.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 03 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[ipgd]

You care a lot more about being right than you do about anything in this argument, don't you?

[upsettingshorts]

There's still room on the chopper, Dave.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

If you wish to ask for clarification, do so. Otherwise, I'd suggest you maintain the notion that you are speculating, and basing at least part of that speculation on the opinions of in-world characters (vis a vis the codex or not). You are free to draw what judgements from that you wish-- whether it be that the templars are a horribly corrupt organization or what have you. We have intentionally left that part of the page blank.

Enjoy.

Maybe we should take the opportunity to ask David Gaider why Leliana seemed to take such a harsh view of magic and mages as Sister Nightingale since the thread derailed from the topic of Anders being Justified?

I would like to know where Lelianna took her snarky anti-mage pills as well since she (very often) was either the BFF or even lover of mages (and sometimes outright bloodmages).

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am sorry but I find the notion that their freedom is not stripped from them, just their desire to be free a bit ... hypocrite. I mean just think about it how many things happen in the world because people want to be free of something. We could make every man and woman tranquil and then live happily ever after? If you can even be happy without emotion ... I am just losing my faith into the writers of DA and in the community here as well.

Because you are making assumptions about that Tranquility means.  They are obviously NOT stripped of desire.  The Tranquil in various places make comments like "this is uncomfortable" or "please be quiet" or "I'd rather not die"

They obviously have /desires/ of some sort.  But not the full range of emotions that normal people have.

It was said they are stripped of their emotions. Desire is an emotion. I sorry I am using logic, hence assuming things.

[Camenae]

How did it even get from "Mages as a whole are not slaves" to "What exactly is the Chantry hierarchy and where do the Templars fall in."

People said, "OMG Mages are slaves!" Writer says: "Mages are not slaves." Why is that not the end? I don't understand.

It's like if I said, "I have two cats!" and someone says, no you don't, because I never see them when I go to your house! And I'm like ummmm okay I guess that proves that I don't have cats then, rather than that they hide from you? You really got me and I apologize for being wrong?

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am sorry but I find the notion that their freedom is not stripped from them, just their desire to be free a bit ... hypocrite. I mean just think about it how many things happen in the world because people want to be free of something. We could make every man and woman tranquil and then live happily ever after? If you can even be happy without emotion ... I am just losing my faith into the writers of DA and in the community here as well.

Because you are making assumptions about that Tranquility means.  They are obviously NOT stripped of desire.  The Tranquil in various places make comments like "this is uncomfortable" or "please be quiet" or "I'd rather not die"

They obviously have /desires/ of some sort.  But not the full range of emotions that normal people have.

I have not seen not once (either in DAO or it's DLCs or in DA2) where a tranquil mage ever did anything they weren't told to do unless contravened by higher authority.  That doesn't sound like freewill to me (and the Templars don't think tranquil have freewill either...just as Ser Alrik).

-Polaris

[MomoJamo]

-Polaris

I think someone takes games just a bit too serious

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...


No.  Gregoire doesn't think he has the needed forces.  In that you are completely correct, but he is also waiting for the Rite of Annulment from Denerim and will not move without it.  He makes that painfully clear (but won't stop the Grey Warden who exists outside Chantry authority giving him a much needed loophole).

-Polaris

Right.  Getting the Grand Cleric's approval is the proper procedure, when there is a Grand Cleric at any rate.  But you are arguing that Greagoire is waiting despite pressing emergencies and Meredith is not, despite a lack of a pressing emergency.

Greagoire doesn't have the /option/ to act.  So its not an equivalent situation.   You can't use Gregoire's restraint as an example of proper behavior because he didn't have an alternative.   Gregoire *also* wants to save Irving and the Circle, because he's the right kind of Templar officer.  So its in his interest to wait even if he doesn't strictly have to.

They just aren't comparable situations like you claim.

[Chromie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am sorry but I find the notion that their freedom is not stripped from them, just their desire to be free a bit ... hypocrite. I mean just think about it how many things happen in the world because people want to be free of something. We could make every man and woman tranquil and then live happily ever after? If you can even be happy without emotion ... I am just losing my faith into the writers of DA and in the community here as well.

Because you are making assumptions about that Tranquility means.  They are obviously NOT stripped of desire.  The Tranquil in various places make comments like "this is uncomfortable" or "please be quiet" or "I'd rather not die"

They obviously have /desires/ of some sort.  But not the full range of emotions that normal people have.

I have not seen not once (either in DAO or it's DLCs or in DA2) where a tranquil mage ever did anything they weren't told to do unless contravened by higher authority.  That doesn't sound like freewill to me (and the Templars don't think tranquil have freewill either...just as Ser Alrik).

-Polaris

-Starr. /sacarasm

I don't remember once in DAO, Awakening or DA2 where we see Tranquil's being ordered around either. Though I haven't played Origins in awhile.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Camenae wrote...

This is getting way too serious. Let's go over to the Large Bosoms thread and troll that instead!

Indeed.

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[IanPolaris]

Darth Krytie wrote...

@IanPolaris

The problem is that you're not making sound judgements regarding the sources of the Codex entries. These entries are not law books which spell things out. These are written by historians and pamphlet makers. I can tell you from personal experience that a book discussing how things came to be or why things are is a whole different matter than a book containing laws, rules and regulations. Fine details is one of the things the former lacks in regards to the latter.

The problem is that if we take DG at his word, then it would be as though if the Pope were assassinated, the head of the Dominican Monks and thats just not so.  The Dominican Order (like the Templars) has it's own parallel chain of command (or heiarchy).

In short, it doesn't mesh (and painfully doesn't mesh) with existing game lore.  It's much easier to believe that Meridith is overstepping her bounds....again.

-Polaris