1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

I have not seen not once (either in DAO or it's DLCs or in DA2) where a tranquil mage ever did anything they weren't told to do unless contravened by higher authority.  That doesn't sound like freewill to me (and the Templars don't think tranquil have freewill either...just as Ser Alrik).

-Polaris

The Tranquil in the library told Wynne he did not want to leave his current location when she told him to leave.  He told the PC he didn't want to die.  He asked the PC to be quiet so that both those things could continue to be viable.

Also, Ser Alrik thinks raping people is okay.  So he's hardly a model for good judgement.

[Namuri]

@ Shadow of Light: That was awesome. Thank you

[Chromie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

@IanPolaris

The problem is that you're not making sound judgements regarding the sources of the Codex entries. These entries are not law books which spell things out. These are written by historians and pamphlet makers. I can tell you from personal experience that a book discussing how things came to be or why things are is a whole different matter than a book containing laws, rules and regulations. Fine details is one of the things the former lacks in regards to the latter.

The problem is that if we take DG at his word, then it would be as though if the Pope were assassinated, the head of the Dominican Monks and thats just not so.  The Dominican Order (like the Templars) has it's own parallel chain of command (or heiarchy).

In short, it doesn't mesh (and painfully doesn't mesh) with existing game lore.  It's much easier to believe that Meridith is overstepping her bounds....again.

-Polaris

You suck
-RINGO

[LobselVith8]

Camenae wrote...

How did it even get from "Mages as a whole are not slaves" to "What exactly is the Chantry hierarchy and where do the Templars fall in."

People said, "OMG Mages are slaves!" Writer says: "Mages are not slaves." Why is that not the end? I don't understand.

It's like if I said, "I have two cats!" and someone says, no you don't, because I never see them when I go to your house! And I'm like ummmm okay I guess that proves that I don't have cats then, rather than that they hide from you? You really got me and I apologize for being wrong?

I believe it steams from the "How Did Merrill get the Eluvian" thread. IMHO.

[AlexXIV]

Camenae wrote...

How did it even get from "Mages as a whole are not slaves" to "What exactly is the Chantry hierarchy and where do the Templars fall in."

People said, "OMG Mages are slaves!" Writer says: "Mages are not slaves." Why is that not the end? I don't understand.

It's like if I said, "I have two cats!" and someone says, no you don't, because I never see them when I go to your house! And I'm like ummmm okay I guess that proves that I don't have cats then, rather than that they hide from you? You really got me and I apologize for being wrong?

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

[Namuri]

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is that if we take DG at his word, then it would be as though if the Pope were assassinated, the head of the Dominican Monks and thats just not so.  The Dominican Order (like the Templars) has it's own parallel chain of command (or heiarchy).

In short, it doesn't mesh (and painfully doesn't mesh) with existing game lore.  It's much easier to believe that Meridith is overstepping her bounds....again.

-Polaris

Okay, even assuming you're correct that it doesn't mesh with the 'existing' game lore, it doesn't matter. He's the head writer, he writes the lore. I mean, come on. If he says it's true, then it's true. He makes the canon.

Modifié par Namuri, 03 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[IanPolaris]

Ringo12 wrote...

I don't remember once in DAO, Awakening or DA2 where we see Tranquil's being ordered around either. Though I haven't played Origins in awhile.

You do see it albeit indirectly.  In the DAO mage's origen, the senior mage tells you that the Tranquil will be moving your belongings this afternoon (clearly the tranquil do the gruntwork).  Likewise at least one tranquil says, "we had an illicit affair, but I am only Knight Captain's Cullen's to command now", and finally we have the entire scene with Ella and Ser Alrick which is creepy and he tells her straight up that once she is tranquil she will do anything he says.

-Polaris

[Darth Krytie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

@IanPolaris

The problem is that you're not making sound judgements regarding the sources of the Codex entries. These entries are not law books which spell things out. These are written by historians and pamphlet makers. I can tell you from personal experience that a book discussing how things came to be or why things are is a whole different matter than a book containing laws, rules and regulations. Fine details is one of the things the former lacks in regards to the latter.

The problem is that if we take DG at his word, then it would be as though if the Pope were assassinated, the head of the Dominican Monks and thats just not so.  The Dominican Order (like the Templars) has it's own parallel chain of command (or heiarchy).

In short, it doesn't mesh (and painfully doesn't mesh) with existing game lore.  It's much easier to believe that Meridith is overstepping her bounds....again.

-Polaris

Actually, you really can't determine if it meshes or not because we were never privy to this exact situation prior. She does overstep her bounds by invoking the Rite unjustly. But, that has nothing to do with the legality of it. She's making a judgdement call; it's just a very bad one.

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is that if we take DG at his word, then it would be as though if the Pope were assassinated, the head of the Dominican Monks and thats just not so.  The Dominican Order (like the Templars) has it's own parallel chain of command (or heiarchy).
-Polaris

The head of the Dominicans would have untrammelled authority of the Order of Preachers, their facilities, and personnel until a new Pope was elected, certainly.   He would not get to wear a pointy hat and wave a crozier around and appoint new parish priests or do other things restricted to episcopal authorities.   What's the problem?

[Dave of Canada]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

Poor analogy. Gaider didn't create rape and murder.

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

Camenae wrote...

How did it even get from "Mages as a whole are not slaves" to "What exactly is the Chantry hierarchy and where do the Templars fall in."

People said, "OMG Mages are slaves!" Writer says: "Mages are not slaves." Why is that not the end? I don't understand.

It's like if I said, "I have two cats!" and someone says, no you don't, because I never see them when I go to your house! And I'm like ummmm okay I guess that proves that I don't have cats then, rather than that they hide from you? You really got me and I apologize for being wrong?

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

Exactly so.  I am not challenging DG's authority to write the canon as he wishes (athough I am sure his fellow writers might), but I can and will challenge him when he apparently changes the lore to win an argument and I believe he has.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

Poor analogy. Gaider didn't create rape and murder.

And he created slavery?

[Darth Krytie]

AlexXIV wrote...

Camenae wrote...

How did it even get from "Mages as a whole are not slaves" to "What exactly is the Chantry hierarchy and where do the Templars fall in."

People said, "OMG Mages are slaves!" Writer says: "Mages are not slaves." Why is that not the end? I don't understand.

It's like if I said, "I have two cats!" and someone says, no you don't, because I never see them when I go to your house! And I'm like ummmm okay I guess that proves that I don't have cats then, rather than that they hide from you? You really got me and I apologize for being wrong?

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

What a ridiculous tangent from the original point. It not even in the same sport, nevermind the same ballpark. DG doesn't dictate rl morality. But he does dictate in game canon.

[Namuri]

Dave of Canada wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

Poor analogy. Gaider didn't create rape and murder.

More like a logical fallacy, since they're trying to use a loaded question to make their opponent seem foolish.
And it doesn't work, because that question really doesn't make much sense. I don't see why he would write that, we'd never be in that situation.

[Dave of Canada]

AlexXIV wrote...

And he created slavery?

He's saying what's happening to the mages isn't slavery.
That isn't saying "slavery is fine".
You're seeing what you want to see.

[Vormaerin]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

Well, he hasn't done anything of the sort, though if he wanted to tell me that the Chantry teaches that it is okay I'd take is word that that is the Chantry teaching.


You are objecting to his definition about how a magical procedure works.  If that's not ridiculous, I don't know what is.  How could you possibly know better than him how some piece of magic in his world works?

[David Gaider]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Maybe we should take the opportunity to ask David Gaider why Leliana seemed to take such a harsh view of magic and mages as Sister Nightingale since the thread derailed from the topic of Anders being Justified?

Hm? Which harsh view of magic and mages is this?

[sphinxess]

Ringo12 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I am sorry but I find the notion that their freedom is not stripped from them, just their desire to be free a bit ... hypocrite. I mean just think about it how many things happen in the world because people want to be free of something. We could make every man and woman tranquil and then live happily ever after? If you can even be happy without emotion ... I am just losing my faith into the writers of DA and in the community here as well.

Because you are making assumptions about that Tranquility means.  They are obviously NOT stripped of desire.  The Tranquil in various places make comments like "this is uncomfortable" or "please be quiet" or "I'd rather not die"

They obviously have /desires/ of some sort.  But not the full range of emotions that normal people have.

I have not seen not once (either in DAO or it's DLCs or in DA2) where a tranquil mage ever did anything they weren't told to do unless contravened by higher authority.  That doesn't sound like freewill to me (and the Templars don't think tranquil have freewill either...just as Ser Alrik).

-Polaris

-Starr. /sacarasm

I don't remember once in DAO, Awakening or DA2 where we see Tranquil's being ordered around either. Though I haven't played Origins in awhile.

Anyone think they are like Rain Man? they get kinda upset if their routine is changed

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok so now we are accusing David Gaider of changing the lore, JUST to win an internet argument.

Yea, I think I am done here. It's been fun.

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Camenae wrote...

How did it even get from "Mages as a whole are not slaves" to "What exactly is the Chantry hierarchy and where do the Templars fall in."

People said, "OMG Mages are slaves!" Writer says: "Mages are not slaves." Why is that not the end? I don't understand.

It's like if I said, "I have two cats!" and someone says, no you don't, because I never see them when I go to your house! And I'm like ummmm okay I guess that proves that I don't have cats then, rather than that they hide from you? You really got me and I apologize for being wrong?

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

Exactly so.  I am not challenging DG's authority to write the canon as he wishes (athough I am sure his fellow writers might), but I can and will challenge him when he apparently changes the lore to win an argument and I believe he has.

-Polaris

I am not so much concerned about change of lore, but more about having a skewed view on morality. I mean if you say say tranquility is fine, then there is a small step to actually saying slavery is fine. And then maybe everything else is also fine.

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is that if we take DG at his word, then it would be as though if the Pope were assassinated, the head of the Dominican Monks and thats just not so.  The Dominican Order (like the Templars) has it's own parallel chain of command (or heiarchy).
-Polaris

The head of the Dominicans would have untrammelled authority of the Order of Preachers, their facilities, and personnel until a new Pope was elected, certainly.   He would not get to wear a pointy hat and wave a crozier around and appoint new parish priests or do other things restricted to episcopal authorities.   What's the problem?

You'd be wrong.  It turns out that the RCC has a very well established chain of command, and adminstrative authority would go to the Pope's chancellor (until a new pope was elected) while spiritual authority would be collectively held by the College of Cardinals (you know..those guys one step DOWN on the chain of command?)

To put it another way, just because a Nuke hit DC when a joint session of congress was in session (the WWIII nightmare scenario and the one scenario most like what Anders did) does NOT mean that the Chairman of the Joint Cheif of Staff gets to  be president (indeed the law specifically forbids this).  There is an order of Governors in the listed chain of command first.

-Polaris

[Camenae]

AlexXIV wrote...

Camenae wrote...

How did it even get from "Mages as a whole are not slaves" to "What exactly is the Chantry hierarchy and where do the Templars fall in."

People said, "OMG Mages are slaves!" Writer says: "Mages are not slaves." Why is that not the end? I don't understand.

It's like if I said, "I have two cats!" and someone says, no you don't, because I never see them when I go to your house! And I'm like ummmm okay I guess that proves that I don't have cats then, rather than that they hide from you? You really got me and I apologize for being wrong?

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

No...but if he wrote "rape and murder is morally fine in Thedas" then I would accept that the average imaginary person in Thedas accepts rape and murder as being fine.

[Namuri]

IanPolaris wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Camenae wrote...

How did it even get from "Mages as a whole are not slaves" to "What exactly is the Chantry hierarchy and where do the Templars fall in."

People said, "OMG Mages are slaves!" Writer says: "Mages are not slaves." Why is that not the end? I don't understand.

It's like if I said, "I have two cats!" and someone says, no you don't, because I never see them when I go to your house! And I'm like ummmm okay I guess that proves that I don't have cats then, rather than that they hide from you? You really got me and I apologize for being wrong?

Well if David Gaider is god for you, then good for you. But I don't think that counts for most of us. If he wrote 'Rape and murder is morally fine.' Would you just accept it without any protest?

Exactly so.  I am not challenging DG's authority to write the canon as he wishes (athough I am sure his fellow writers might), but I can and will challenge him when he apparently changes the lore to win an argument and I believe he has.

-Polaris

He writes the lore.
I don't see why this is so hard to understand.
We only get to see part of how the world works. I mean, you can't base your arguements off biased bits of info, cause they're bits of info. He has all of it. I don't see why you can't take his word for it. He's not twisting the canon. 

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Maybe we should take the opportunity to ask David Gaider why Leliana seemed to take such a harsh view of magic and mages as Sister Nightingale since the thread derailed from the topic of Anders being Justified?

Hm? Which harsh view of magic and mages is this?

In the quest "Faith," for the DLC The Exiled Prince. Leliana seemed to take a harsh tone about the mages when Hawke and Sebastian Vael got to speak with her. I was wondering if it was intentional because she was now a Chantry operative.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[Oneiropolos]

oookay then. Let's look at this link:
http://dragonage.wik...ki/David_Gaider

Yes. The person who wrote... Morrigan...and Anders in Awakening... and also decided that Meredith was INSANE in writing her either... and even wrote Alistair, who was a templar but was glad to get out before he took his vows.. is CLEARLY pro-templar and he wanted us to hate mages.

Wait. What? HOW....that doesn't...the strongest stance on a free mage who isn't insane or using blood magic (Morrigan) and someone who hates blood magic, the templars, and wants to be free even in Awakening (Anders).. wants us to hate mages? Are you even still honestly looking at your accusations?