1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well.

Nothing is true, Everything is permitted.

[IanPolaris]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

that tranquil are.

-Polaris

At this point, I think its really just a matter of us not understanding the full implications of the magic. The Rite of Tranquility cuts them off from the Fade, which is apparently the source of emotion in some way.   Its not like anything we can compare to in the real world to say what the exact effects are.

RL Lobotomy victimes seem close (and the practice was outlawed for a reason).  In addition, we see how tranquil behave and are treated in various parts of the games and we can read the codex entries on them....and we even get a priceless glimpse of what being tranquil is life when one briefly becomes untranquilized...and it's IMHO too horrible to contemplate.  Finally we know that being tranquil means your soul was killed in the fade (learn that from the Dalish).

I think my read on the tranquil is reasonably accurate.

-Polaris

[Shadowrun1177]

IanPolaris wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yet during the metastoryline, Lelianna's (apparent) number 2 woman (Cassandra) is desperately trying to find the Champion to find the peaceful solution?  Something seems out of joint here which is why I am asking as politely as I can.

-Polaris

Obviously, I'm not Gaider.   I'd be surprised if he spoiled the story by answering, but who knows?   However, I took that line to mean "There'll be war and mayhem everywhere if there is a successful revolt" rather than some kind of statement of "OMG, mages are evil and must stay caged".

Its also Leilana after years of who knows what.  Its not like she hasn't changed her stripes before.   She was once an assassin, then a priestess, then a happy go lucky adventurer, and now a Seeker...

Or maybe she was always a seeker and really evil

You may be right about the last point....if so, and if Lelianna really is the spiteful and distrustful wench (at least IMHO) that she comes across as in the DLC scene with Sebastian, then I wish I had killed her in DAO and I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

I'll admit I felt this myself especially after she may of just got done saying that the Warden was dear to her heart. Sounds like all those years later she still loves the Warden who was maybe a mage. Yet she seemed harsh toward mages in general at least to me.

[AlexXIV]

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
This scene was meant to show how they act on logic and not emotion. .

Ah.  Sorry, I didn't realize you had access to the script notes and writer commentary.  I won't challenge your superior understanding of what being cut off from the Fade means again.  I didn't get to that chapter in my Psych textbook yet.  My apologies.

It's quite ok, just keep on reading.

[upsettingshorts]

jlb524 wrote...

I feel they are both terrorist but one is justified while the other is not

Cerberus are a jingoist criminal organization that engages in theft, murder, trespassing, amoral experimentation, kidnapping, and a host of other crimes.  There are examples of all of these within the books, comics, and games themselves.

But they aren't terrorists.  They'd have to engage in terrorism to actually be that, and they haven't.

jlb524 wrote...

....Anders does not support mages ruling.  Cerberus ultimately wants humans to dictate power.

Why are you back on motives?  Terrorism is a tactic, not a motivation.

Good guys can use terrorism just as much as bad guys.  Unless you feel that the ends never justify the means, in which case terrorists are always bad guys, even if they're right.  And that would as a consequence have to include Anders.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[David Gaider]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well I thought I read it between the lines, but I could probably have read it wrong. In which case I apologize.

No worries. You threw me for a loop there-- I almost thought I'd maybe called the Qunari "Islamic borg" again by accident. And I don't want to do that.

The whole deal with saying they are free, just stripped of the desire to use their freedom. And they can be creative, if there was a logical reason kinda sounded like an excuse for me. I mean one can't take people's motivation to do something and then say 'Well they could do it, if they had any motivation'. I mean, you can say that, but that's not right in my eyes.

Ah. No, I'm not saying it's right. The question was regarding whether or not they were forced to stay in the Circle of Magi-- and my answer was no, they were not. If you read what I wrote, I did say that "forced" becomes a bit murky since they are more or less stripped of their capacity to form anything other than a logical opinion, but they stay primarily because it's logical: they're welcome nowhere else and can serve in a productive capacity.

There are, however, all sorts of reasons to consider the Rite of Tranquility abhorrent... and the Tranquil as an embarassing reminder of an inadequate solution. They are not, however, objects. They do not wish to die, and to many that alone would mean that Tranquility is a better option than execution... which, let's face it, would be the templars' only solution remaining to them. But that's an entirely different argument.

[IanPolaris]

Shadowrun1177 wrote...

I'll admit I felt this myself especially after she may of just got done saying that the Warden was dear to her heart. Sounds like all those years later she still loves the Warden who was maybe a mage. Yet she seemed harsh toward mages in general at least to me.

Indeed.  She goes beyond harsh.  She sounds like a sane Meridith which is totally unlike the Lelianna I remember even dealing with Morrigan (who she seemed to like the least).

-Polaris

[Camenae]

Mr. IanPolaris.

Codex. Entries. Are. Not. Facts.

Yes they can be correct, but they can also be WRONG because they are only someone's interpretations, and an imaginary person's interpretations at that.

A "read" or an interpretation can be reasonable and plausible and STILL BE WRONG. If it usually takes 2 minutes for me to drive to my boyfriend's house and that day it took me 2 hours, it would be reasonable and plausible to think that I was off doing something shady like cheating on him. OR MAYBE I just decided to walk that day.

[sphinxess]

Vormaerin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

that tranquil are.

-Polaris

At this point, I think its really just a matter of us not understanding the full implications of the magic. The Rite of Tranquility cuts them off from the Fade, which is apparently the source of emotion in some way.   Its not like anything we can compare to in the real world to say what the exact effects are.

Whats odd in the game is the wide range of views over being made tranquil - some are quite happy to accept it instead of risking death  in the harrowing - others would rather die than be made tranquel - maybe growing up in a circle makes all the mages a bit off

[RomanDark]

While I believe the circle is necessary, I do not think they go about it the right way. The situation in Kirkwall shows this to be especially true as tension and paranoia on both sides reaches its bursting point. In one of Anders banters he mentions that any attempt to speak out against the Circle or Chantry or suggest any change is met with the threat of being made tranquil, thus with that hanging over the mages heads, any confrontation is made into a life or death situation, effectively removing the mages ability to reason, and basically forcing them to use any means necessary to live i.e. blood magic and demons (even Orsino). When they resort to this it strengthens the Templars convictions that all mages will turn to such means. It a vicious cycle that would inevitably turn out the same way, with bloodshed on a massive scale.

In the beginning of the game Flemeth says "Without and end, there can be no peace" and Anders seems to share this view. The chantry represented the middle ground, refusing to take sides and trying to keep the peace and delay the inevitable. This made them Anders target. The Grand Cleric no doubt knew or heard of the abuses going on in the Kirkwall Circle and yet did nothing to help, she refused to "make judgments" on Meredith's descent into madness and effectively doomed herself (though I am by no means saying she deserved what happened, though one could say that a man is guilty of all the good he DIDN'T do in his life). By blowing up the Chantry Anders made sure there was no possible way the abuses could continue. It would force the situation to finally come to a conclusion (or beginning as it seems). Now there is never any justification to bloodshed but in this case it may have been necessary. With the chantry in place there was no way for mages to defend themselves, so even if Anders hadn't blown up the chantry more lives would have been lost be it by execution or tranquility, and who is to say that the mages lives are any less important (or innocent) as those who died in the Chantry. War and revolution are ugly, but no matter what, lives are lost.

Now I said I believe the Circle is necessary but I believe instead of associating fear and hatred with mages, they could try giving the mages a sense of pride and duty during their time in the circle. MAges are made to feel like they are cursed and they are imprisoned for being born with something they had no control over. I believe instead they should be taught to use their powers to help society grow and flourish, to feel responsible for the gift they have been given. Yes there is always the chance of possession and yes there is already a lit of stigma attached to mages due to the old Tevinter imperium but subjecting mages to the point we see in Dragon Age 2 is the reason we see so many mages turning to blood magic and demons, because they feel they have been robbed of so much, but that isn't far from the truth.

Anyway, that's the way I feel about it. I was crushed the first time I played through when Anders blew up the Chantry, especially cause I had romanced him and he kinda emotionally blackmailed me into helping him do it. Since then I have come to forgive him and he is still by far my favorite character in DA2.

[IanPolaris]

David Gaider wrote...

There are, however, all sorts of reasons to consider the Rite of Tranquility abhorrent... and the Tranquil as an embarassing reminder of an inadequate solution. They are not, however, objects. They do not wish to die, and to many that alone would mean that Tranquility is a better option than execution... which, let's face it, would be the templars' only solution remaining to them. But that's an entirely different argument.

I can buy that for a nickle except in DAO when we find an abomination (Mages' circle) draining lifeforce from Tranquil (and making them into shades) we see no sign of them yelling or struggling.  It seems that if they do desire to survive, they are very, very detched from it at best....and that leads to my second point.  Unless the Dalish have it completely wrong (and I would not bet against a Dalish Keeper when it comes to magic) tranquility seems to involve KILLING the soul of a person in the fade which seems to argue (if you believe that the soul....if you accept such things and the game clearly does...houses freewill) that Tranquil really don't have freewill, or an I reading too much into Keeper Merethari's(sp?) words?

-Polaris

[DarkSpiral]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well considering terror means fear, and a terrorist is someone who causes fear I'd say there is a rather broad definition of the term. I am sure Cerberus causes fear to some people, and so did Anders.

Such broad, vague, literal definitions are misleading.  Terrorism exploits fear of or action use of violence against noncombatants for political gain.  Cerberus may scare people, but that's collateral damage.  They always have reasons beyond simply terrifying people to advance their agenda.  They just don't really care if people die, or if they get scared.   To them, it's justified by the mission, it isn't the mission in of itself.

AlexXIV wrote...

I think some people just think that since 9/11 terrorism equals blowing up buildings with people in it.

Sure, and if Anders had flown two giant flaming dragons into the Chantry - I don't think too many people would be disputing the label.  But what he did wasn't any different, he just used a different mechanism. 

Beyond the act itself, the explanation Anders himself offers reminded me quite a bit of phrases I read in The Looming Tower.  Stuff about death being preferable to living with the status quo, people needing to be forced to choose a side, the removal of any possibility of compromise - none of this is unique to people with righteous moral causes.  Similar rhetoric is used all the time, by noble revolutionaries and people we as society view as utterly reprehensible.  

It's not that his cause is or isn't just, that's not something I tend to get involved in discussing, but the tactics he used to advance his cause are clear.  They have a term we can use, accurately, to define them.  To attempt to describe what he does as more palatable does a disservice to the choices demanded of Hawke - appear to (or actively) endorse either Meredith's police state, or Anders' terrorism.   Not everyone - in fact, I'd say most people - would bother to or have the capabiltiy to understand the nuances of either position.  Like Cassandra before learning the truth from Varric, people will associate Hawke with what he did, not why he did it.

That has to be the best summation of the situation I've read, to date.  It's also veering back to the topic of the thread, which has derailed so completlely it's hilarious.

[David Gaider]

IanPolaris wrote...
First of all, I apologize for snapping at you.  You do write the lore and your word is official.  I disagree with the continuity and legality issues, but it's your call tomake and I was out of line.

Fair enough.

Now, hopefully on a more positive note, let me explain where and why I got my impressions because I fear we may be talking past each other.  I really (along with others) would really like to know if Lelianna has changed and if so why...and how much of her words were hers and how much were Divine Justina's.  With that, I'll respond point by point.

Just a caution that I'm only going to answer evasively. There are lots of explanations regarding Leliana that you are meant to be curious about, and which I'm not going to spoil by waxing eloquent on the forums.

In the first point, given that the extra line only happens if your Warden freed the Fereldan circle (and King Alistair doesn't indicate anything to the contrary when you meet him...and neither does Queen Anora), it seems logical and reasonable to presume she's directly refering to the warden boon....or is there something else we don't know about?  [I can only go with what's presented in the game]

There's something else you don't know about.

They have, but that wasn't the snarky part I am talking about.  Lelianna seems to be talking about chantry control over mages and magic as though it were divine right....and that's completely contrary to the Lelianna I remember talking with my mage warden, or even her byplay with Wynne or even Morrigan (who she didn't especially like but never treated with this sort of IMHO off-hand contempt).

I think you're reading into it. What she's probably talking about is the mages forcing their freedom. Unpleasantness could follow-- for everyone-- regardless of whether the mages try to set up Tevinter Imperium mark 2 (whatever that might be). Some people have an odd idea of the Tevinter Imperium being a haven for mages, but if you think that I'd suggest exploring some of  Fenris's dialogues on the subject for a first-hand account of why that might not be so... and why even Leliana might not think it's keen.

Yet during the metastoryline, Lelianna's (apparent) number 2 woman (Cassandra) is desperately trying to find the Champion to find the peaceful solution?  Something seems out of joint here which is why I am asking as politely as I can.

Yep. Sounds like there's a story there.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 avril 2011 - 09:02 .

[Lucy Glitter]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The forums do this all the time. If I say "Cerberus aren't terrorists" that means I'm defending their organization. Or if I say, "Anders is a terrorist" that means I hate mages and their cause.

Words have meanings. Let's try to stick to them.

Don't forget the classic, "You think Miranda is barren, so you obviously hate Miranda and her fandom and want her to die."

[David Gaider]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
Don't forget the classic, "You think Miranda is barren, so you obviously hate Miranda and her fandom and want her to die."

Let's not forget "Grey Wardens can't have children" = "you hate all women and kill puppies."

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There are, however, all sorts of reasons to consider the Rite of Tranquility abhorrent... and the Tranquil as an embarassing reminder of an inadequate solution. They are not, however, objects. They do not wish to die, and to many that alone would mean that Tranquility is a better option than execution... which, let's face it, would be the templars' only solution remaining to them. But that's an entirely different argument.

I can buy that for a nickle except in DAO when we find an abomination (Mages' circle) draining lifeforce from Tranquil (and making them into shades) we see no sign of them yelling or struggling.  It seems that if they do desire to survive, they are very, very detched from it at best....and that leads to my second point.  Unless the Dalish have it completely wrong (and I would not bet against a Dalish Keeper when it comes to magic) tranquility seems to involve KILLING the soul of a person in the fade which seems to argue (if you believe that the soul....if you accept such things and the game clearly does...houses freewill) that Tranquil really don't have freewill, or an I reading too much into Keeper Merethari's(sp?) words?

-Polaris

I guess 'desire to live' is not the same as 'not wanting to die'. I mean even an absolutely logical thinking person would consider an unnecessary death as a waste of life. Unless there is something like a greater good involved with it.

[upsettingshorts]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

Don't forget the classic, "You think Miranda is barren, so you obviously hate Miranda and her fandom and want her to die."

Pfft.

Those men she screened on Space Craigslist for casual sexual encounters and the doctors she saw simply can't match Shepard's Cerberus-engineered cyborg super-sperm. 

That being said, Ron Swanson could totally get her pregnant.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[David Gaider]

IanPolaris wrote...
I can buy that for a nickle except in DAO when we find an abomination (Mages' circle) draining lifeforce from Tranquil (and making them into shades) we see no sign of them yelling or struggling.  It seems that if they do desire to survive, they are very, very detched from it at best

That's the function of a shade being a demon of Sloth and not a function of a Tranquil being too passive to resist.

Unless the Dalish have it completely wrong (and I would not bet against a Dalish Keeper when it comes to magic) tranquility seems to involve KILLING the soul of a person in the fade which seems to argue (if you believe that the soul....if you accept such things and the game clearly does...houses freewill) that Tranquil really don't have freewill, or an I reading too much into Keeper Merethari's(sp?) words?

I think you can take that as more of a philosophical viewpoint-- as any discussion of the soul would be.

[Persephone]

David Gaider wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
Don't forget the classic, "You think Miranda is barren, so you obviously hate Miranda and her fandom and want her to die."

Let's not forget "Grey Wardens can't have children" = "you hate all women and kill puppies."

Well, I read "Grey Wardens can't have children" and immediately think of the many kids the Warden & Alistair end up having the realm of fan fiction.

[Vormaerin]

IanPolaris wrote...

RL Lobotomy victimes seem close (and the practice was outlawed for a reason).  In addition, we see how tranquil behave and are treated in various parts of the games and we can read the codex entries on them....and we even get a priceless glimpse of what being tranquil is life when one briefly becomes untranquilized...and it's IMHO too horrible to contemplate.  Finally we know that being tranquil means your soul was killed in the fade (learn that from the Dalish).

I think my read on the tranquil is reasonably accurate.

-Polaris

I don't think its like lobotomy at all.   But if it is, then your argument is completely wrong because lobotomy doesn't deprive you of free will. It just alters your emotional responses.  You might want to look at the case studies on that one.

It definitely severs your connection to the Fade, though I don't know that I'd say that had anything to do with killing your soul.   Its certainly a terrible thing to do, though the legal reason it is used (to cut off individuals unable to resist demonic possession) is quite likely a choice of lesser of two evils.   Tranquil seems better than abomination for both mage and neighbors.

They aren't legally slaves.  They do have some desires and an ability to make decisions based on that limited set of desires.  The Kirkwall mages and Tranquil are clearly being deprived of their legitimate rights and the Rite is being performed illegally.  

But we have very little good evidence of its effects.  Surely as a scientist, you know that anecdotal evidience is hardly definitive.  Lots of things don't work the way we would think by observing them....

[upsettingshorts]

Persephone wrote...

Well, I read "Grey Wardens can't have children" and immediately think of the many kids the Warden & Alistair end up having the realm of fan fiction.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:09 .

[AlexXIV]

Which leads to the question why does Alistair not have a heir yet? I mean I made him King because of his royal blood and after 7 years no word of an offspring? Then I could as well have had my Warden marry him.

[Esbatty]

...

Seriously, I could not resist. Its the internet equivalent of someone bending over for waaaaay too long. That fake fart noise ain't gonna make itself.

[Augustei]

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well.

Imo whether or not his actions were justified is now irrelevent since the Llomeryn accord was broken very recently before and then he goes and does that? The mages were the ones to stop the last Qunari invasion and with them fighting with the templars now.. Who is going to stop them? Mages will be fighting for their freedom only to suddenly find themselves leashed in a pen.

[upsettingshorts]

AlexXIV wrote...

Which leads to the question why does Alistair not have a heir yet? I mean I made him King because of his royal blood and after 7 years no word of an offspring? Then I could as well have had my Warden marry him.

This is offtopic but there is no endgame scenario for DAO that would lead one to reasonably expect an heir is forthcoming.  Anora didn't have any with Cailan, Anora doesn't remarry if left alone, or Anora can marry an infertile Grey Warden, or two infertile Grey Wardens can ascend to the throne.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being a problem.  It's no wonder Orlais is still poking about.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:12 .