1927 réponses à ce sujet

[RomanDark]

Even though those that are made Tranquil do not wish to die it is clearly evident when dealing with any mage in the game setting that they do not wish to be Tranquil in the first place, and most if not all would rather die, thus all the blood mages. When Karl becomes un-Tranquil for that short moment in the Chantry he asks Anders to kill because he does not want to go back to being Tranquil.

[DarkSpiral]

AlexXIV wrote...

Which leads to the question why does Alistair not have a heir yet? I mean I made him King because of his royal blood and after 7 years no word of an offspring? Then I could as well have had my Warden marry him.

Is he married to Anora?  Who is very heavily implied to be barren in the first place?  If so...well.  If not...well he still underwent the Joining, and he himself tells the PC Warden (during a romance) that the only Wardens he ever met that had children...had them prior to the Joining.

[AlexXIV]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well.

Imo whether or not his actions were justified is now irrelevent since the Llomeryn accord was broken very recently before and then he goes and does that? The mages were the ones to stop the last Qunari invasion and with them fighting with the templars now.. Who is going to stop them? Mages will be fighting for their freedom only to suddenly find themselves leashed in a pen.

If the mages don't submit to the Chantry, then they probably won't submit to the Qunari either. It's the Chantry's fault to not reward them better for their use- and helpfulness. In a thousand years, no less.

[David Gaider]

Persephone wrote...
Well, I read "Grey Wardens can't have children" and immediately think of the many kids the Warden & Alistair end up having the realm of fan fiction.

Trust me. There is no sin more unforgivable than the contravention of already-written fanfiction.

[IanPolaris]

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
First of all, I apologize for snapping at you.  You do write the lore and your word is official.  I disagree with the continuity and legality issues, but it's your call tomake and I was out of line.

Fair enough.

OK moving on then I think we can agree with Knight Captain Cullen that per WoG, Meridith's Rite of Annulment was legal (barely) but hardly justied.  Personaly I think that alone cost Meridith the loyalty of most of her Templars when it matters most in confronting the Champion...assuming a pro-mage ending.  If you side with the mages and/or are a mage, Meridith is perfectly and legally justified in calling for your execution but the Templars won't do it even if you are a mage defending the circle.  IMHO it's because most of the Templars know what Varric baldly states to Cassanda.  You were protecting the mages aginst a gross injustice....THEIR injustice...and they know it.

Now, hopefully on a more positive note, let me explain where and why I got my impressions because I fear we may be talking past each other.  I really (along with others) would really like to know if Lelianna has changed and if so why...and how much of her words were hers and how much were Divine Justina's.  With that, I'll respond point by point.

Just a caution that I'm only going to answer evasively. There are lots of explanations regarding Leliana that you are meant to be curious about, and which I'm not going to spoil by waxing eloquent on the forums.

Fair enough.  These aren't the DA3 spoiler forums

In the first point, given that the extra line only happens if your Warden freed the Fereldan circle (and King Alistair doesn't indicate anything to the contrary when you meet him...and neither does Queen Anora), it seems logical and reasonable to presume she's directly refering to the warden boon....or is there something else we don't know about?  [I can only go with what's presented in the game]

There's something else you don't know about.

OK...you do understand I am just dying to know what that is you tease!

They have, but that wasn't the snarky part I am talking about.  Lelianna seems to be talking about chantry control over mages and magic as though it were divine right....and that's completely contrary to the Lelianna I remember talking with my mage warden, or even her byplay with Wynne or even Morrigan (who she didn't especially like but never treated with this sort of IMHO off-hand contempt).

I think you're reading into it. What she's probably talking about is the mages forcing their freedom. Unpleasantness could follow-- for everyone-- regardless of whether the mages try to set up Tevinter Imperium mark 2 (whatever that might be). Some people have an odd idea of the Tevinter Imperium being a haven for mages, but if you think that I'd suggest exploring some of  Fenris's dialogues on the subject for a first-hand account of why that might not be so... and why even Leliana might not think it's keen.

I was referring to her lines about how the Chantry "tolerated" fraternties that wanted to seperate from the Chantry as though it were the Chantry's divine right to do so.  Also Lelianna got to see first hand what a mess Templar/Chantry oversight did the the circle and how it helped fuel Uldred's rebellion (even to the impassioned plea by  captured bloodmage) and in DAO Lelianna seemed sympathetic....VERY sypathetic to the point of arguing the point with ex-templar Alistair.  No so anymore, and I don't think I'm the only one that noticed the change.  Again perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye.

Yet during the metastoryline, Lelianna's (apparent) number 2 woman (Cassandra) is desperately trying to find the Champion to find the peaceful solution?  Something seems out of joint here which is why I am asking as politely as I can.

Yep. Sounds like there's a story there.

Lelianna just seems so inconsistant and so harsh given what we learn of her in DAO.....honestly (and take this as you like), it does make me wish I killed her in DAO and I didn't think anything could make me think that (she was one of my favorite DAO characters).

-Polars

[Wulfram]

The Kirkwall Circle seemed rather nicer than the Fereldan one really, at least in act 1. I can't see the Fereldan circle allowing Mages to go out on dates with random people.

[AlexXIV]

DarkSpiral wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Which leads to the question why does Alistair not have a heir yet? I mean I made him King because of his royal blood and after 7 years no word of an offspring? Then I could as well have had my Warden marry him.

Is he married to Anora?  Who is very heavily implied to be barren in the first place?  If so...well.  If not...well he still underwent the Joining, and he himself tells the PC Warden (during a romance) that the only Wardens he ever met that had children...had them prior to the Joining.

Yeah I am just saying the whole point of putting Alistair on the throne was to keep the royal bloodline alive. He is a good king besides that. But keeping Loghain alive forced my female warden to let Morrigan make the DR with Loghain. So if Alistair and Anore don't produce a heir, I did it wrong. I should have killed Loghain and let Alistair father the godchild so we have a proper heir for the throne of Ferelden.

[upsettingshorts]

Yes, because the God Baby is going to get endorsed by the Landsmeet...

Alistair keeps the line alive for a little bit longer.  But his position is not strong.  None of the endgame positions for the Ferelden monarchy are strong.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[jlb524]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I feel they are both terrorist but one is justified while the other is not

Cerberus are a jingoist criminal organization that engages in theft, murder, trespassing, amoral experimentation, kidnapping, and a host of other crimes.  There are examples of all of these within the books, comics, and games themselves.

But they aren't terrorists.  They'd have to engage in terrorism to actually be that, and they haven't.

jlb524 wrote...

....Anders does not support mages ruling.  Cerberus ultimately wants humans to dictate power.

Why are you back on motives?  Terrorism is a tactic, not a motivation.

Good guys can use terrorism just as much as bad guys.  Unless you feel that the ends never justify the means, in which case terrorists are always bad guys, even if they're right.  And that would as a consequence have to include Anders.

I think motives are important here.....

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

David Gaider wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Well, I read "Grey Wardens can't have children" and immediately think of the many kids the Warden & Alistair end up having the realm of fan fiction.

Trust me. There is no sin more unforgivable than the contravention of already-written fanfiction.

Nah. Having fanon contradicted comes with the territory of writing fanfic.

Authors just have to remember they're playing in someone else's sandpit.

[Vormaerin]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am just saying the whole point of putting Alistair on the throne was to keep the royal bloodline alive.

Who said that that twit Eamon read the "Wardens = infertile" memo?

Modifié par Vormaerin, 03 avril 2011 - 09:19 .

[upsettingshorts]

jlb524 wrote...

I think motives are important here.....

Ultimately?  Yes.

In determining what is and isn't terrorism?  No.

Terrorism is terrorism regardless of motives.  The same way a sandwich is always a sandwich, whether or not it tastes good.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:19 .

[AlexXIV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yes, because the God Baby is going to get endorsed by the Landsmeet...

If he is Alistair's son, and with that Maric's grandson. And the last of his bloodline ...

I mean I am assuming that the OGB is not looking like the archdemon or some sort of monster of course. He could be quite the Knight after all, couldn't he?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 avril 2011 - 09:20 .

[NamiraWilhelm]

David Gaider wrote...

LPPrince wrote...
Please relate this to the birthing process of qunari.

I'm sorry-- what?

Haha  i didnt think this thread would be so much fun

[Darth Krytie]

David Gaider wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Well, I read "Grey Wardens can't have children" and immediately think of the many kids the Warden & Alistair end up having the realm of fan fiction.

Trust me. There is no sin more unforgivable than the contravention of already-written fanfiction.

This shall be my siggy now and forever. lol, and it's because fanficcers are crazycakes. (Me amongst them)

[Leonia]

AlexXIV wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yes, because the God Baby is going to get endorsed by the Landsmeet...

If he is Alistair's son, and with that Maric's grandson. And the last of his bloodline ...

I mean I am assuming that the OGB is not looking like the archdemon or some sort of monster of course. He could be quite the Knight after all, couldn't he?

Because Fereldans are totally up-to-date with their genetic testing methods.

[David Gaider]

IanPolaris wrote...
OK moving on then I think we can agree with Knight Captain Cullen that per WoG, Meridith's Rite of Annulment was legal (barely) but hardly justied.  Personaly I think that alone cost Meridith the loyalty of most of her Templars when it matters most in confronting the Champion...assuming a pro-mage ending.  If you side with the mages and/or are a mage, Meridith is perfectly and legally justified in calling for your execution but the Templars won't do it even if you are a mage defending the circle.  IMHO it's because most of the Templars know what Varric baldly states to Cassanda.  You were protecting the mages aginst a gross injustice....THEIR injustice...and they know it.

Oh, absolutely. Just because something is legal does not necessarily make it right or moral. I suspect what Cullen would have argued, given the chance, was that the Divine would never have agreed to the Rite of Annulment in this case. Anyone, even a Grand Cleric, would still be responsible for their actions in calling such a desperate measure after the fact.

I was referring to her lines about how the Chantry "tolerated" fraternties that wanted to seperate from the Chantry as though it were the Chantry's divine right to do so.  Also Lelianna got to see first hand what a mess Templar/Chantry oversight did the the circle and how it helped fuel Uldred's rebellion (even to the impassioned plea by  captured bloodmage) and in DAO Lelianna seemed sympathetic....VERY sypathetic to the point of arguing the point with ex-templar Alistair.  No so anymore, and I don't think I'm the only one that noticed the change.  Again perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye.

I think you can see with Anders how very frustrating it might be to deal with mages trying to force a separation even if the act is self-destructive-- in her opinion. As to whether Leliana's viewpoint has changed in the intervening years, that is something that will have to remain unknown for now. I think it's a bit much to judge her on, but I guess everyone will have to wait to find out more.

[sphinxess]

I'll be interested to see why the seekers werent in Kirkwall during the rise of the champion. It seems the chantry knew there were problems and don't the seekers serve as the oversite branch of the chantry?

[LobselVith8]

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well. 

After the OP went so far off the rail, I have to say that I still think the Chantry controlled Circles are the wrong idea. I hope we can see some possibilities in supporting the mage revolution, if it's explored in an expansion, DLC, or even the third installment of DA.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[Esbatty]

David Gaider wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Well, I read "Grey Wardens can't have children" and immediately think of the many kids the Warden & Alistair end up having the realm of fan fiction.

Trust me. There is no sin more unforgivable than the contravention of already-written fanfiction.

I blame Witch Hunt and the Eluvian for my many months of writing fan fiction. Never had I experienced so much joy and shame. Damn you and your glorious Barbarian Witch creation.

[Augustei]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Which leads to the question why does Alistair not have a heir yet? I mean I made him King because of his royal blood and after 7 years no word of an offspring? Then I could as well have had my Warden marry him.

This is offtopic but there is no endgame scenario for DAO that would lead one to reasonably expect an heir is forthcoming.  Anora didn't have any with Cailan, Anora doesn't remarry if left alone, or Anora can marry an infertile Grey Warden, or two infertile Grey Wardens can ascend to the throne.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being a problem.  It's no wonder Orlais is still poking about.

They wont be poking about when Nevarra comes knocking on their door.. Cause aren't they like the second most powerful nation in thedas very close to suceeding Orlais? Why would Orlais's stupid nobles want to make an enemy on one side of their borders when they have a potential threat at their other border?

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I think motives are important here.....

Ultimately?  Yes.

In determining what is and isn't terrorism?  No.

Terrorism is terrorism regardless of motives.  The same way a sandwich is always a sandwich, whether or not it tastes good.

I agree.  I happen to agree with Ander's motives (if opposed to his methodes), but he is a terrorist no question and as such I kill him without compunction every time as the sole sane source of civil authority in Kirkwell at the time regardless of which side I take.  I find it very telling that KC Meridith even though she claims to want to protect the city could care less about arresting and punishing the one person (Anders) that really is responsible for mass murder.

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

AlexXIV wrote...

If he is Alistair's son, and with that Maric's grandson. And the last of his bloodline ...

Bloodlines are important because they're part of an argument put forth to endorse someone's right or authority to rule.  They aren't the end-all-be-all, especially in a country where the lower nobility appears to play a major role in determining who the monarch ends up being.  We aren't talking about a nation of God-kings like Ancient Egypt. 

The part of the argument that was important for Alistair vs. Anora (and Loghain) was that the latter could reasonably be viewed as usurpers because their right to rule was based on little more than circumstance.  

Regardless, the choice of who is to be king - before the duel that ultimately decides it - is based upon arguments put forth to the Landsmeet.

XxDeonxX wrote...

They wont be poking about when Nevarra comes knocking on their door.. Cause aren't they like the second most powerful nation in thedas very close to suceeding Orlais? Why would Orlais's stupid nobles want to make an enemy on one side of their borders when they have a potential threat at their other border?

Who knows about any of this.  Plus it's way off topic for this thread.  The only point I was making is that Fereldan's monarchy is always unstable regardless of the player-chosen outcome in DAO.  No scenario ensures a stable succession, and an unstable kingdom is a tempting target for a neighboring one.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:24 .

[Firky]

David Gaider wrote...
They're free to go, and some in fact do if there's a logical place for them elsewhere (which is rare).

Woo. I love this thread.

And I find the Tranquil fascinating. I wonder if there'd be some reason why a family member wouldn't come and take them home. 

[AlexXIV]

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am just saying the whole point of putting Alistair on the throne was to keep the royal bloodline alive.

Who said that that twit Eamon read the "Wardens = infertile" memo?

Well technically I think they are not infertile. It is just less likely to happen that with non-wardens. At least that's how I understood it to happen. And the whole reason I let Alistair go marry Anora was that 2 Grey Warden producing a child is even more unlikely than a GW and a normal person. Actually that's even what Alistair said to my Warden. That he is going to be king and this requires him to have a heir.