1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Krytie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I think motives are important here.....

Ultimately?  Yes.

In determining what is and isn't terrorism?  No.

Terrorism is terrorism regardless of motives.  The same way a sandwich is always a sandwich, whether or not it tastes good.

Actually, intent is a huge part of terrorism. The intent being to gain what one wants by use of fear and intimidation.

Definition: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well.

Imo whether or not his actions were justified is now irrelevent since the Llomeryn accord was broken very recently before and then he goes and does that? The mages were the ones to stop the last Qunari invasion and with them fighting with the templars now.. Who is going to stop them? Mages will be fighting for their freedom only to suddenly find themselves leashed in a pen.

If the mages don't submit to the Chantry, then they probably won't submit to the Qunari either. It's the Chantry's fault to not reward them better for their use- and helpfulness. In a thousand years, no less.

The Qunari dont need them to submit freely.. They can just cut their tongue out, sew their mouth togheather and use that rod to stop their highly brain functions from working.. at least thats what it seems to do.

Otherwise the other option is death for all mages, which well.. Is the worst possible outcome

[Persephone]

Darth Krytie wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Well, I read "Grey Wardens can't have children" and immediately think of the many kids the Warden & Alistair end up having the realm of fan fiction.

Trust me. There is no sin more unforgivable than the contravention of already-written fanfiction.

This shall be my siggy now and forever. lol, and it's because fanficcers are crazycakes. (Me amongst them)

Add me to the bunch. *Huggles her fanfic lovingly*

[AlexXIV]

XxDeonxX wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well.

Imo whether or not his actions were justified is now irrelevent since the Llomeryn accord was broken very recently before and then he goes and does that? The mages were the ones to stop the last Qunari invasion and with them fighting with the templars now.. Who is going to stop them? Mages will be fighting for their freedom only to suddenly find themselves leashed in a pen.

If the mages don't submit to the Chantry, then they probably won't submit to the Qunari either. It's the Chantry's fault to not reward them better for their use- and helpfulness. In a thousand years, no less.

The Qunari dont need them to submit freely.. They can just cut their tongue out, sew their mouth togheather and use that rod to stop their highly brain functions from working.. at least thats what it seems to do.

Otherwise the other option is death for all mages, which well.. Is the worst possible outcome

I think mages have already made a choice by then that death is not worse than being oppressed. Or the whole mage rebellion would be silly. Because many are going to die.

[Augustei]

Wulfram wrote...

The Kirkwall Circle seemed rather nicer than the Fereldan one really, at least in act 1. I can't see the Fereldan circle allowing Mages to go out on dates with random people.

yeah and they get a nice little courtyard with a thin veil to be tempted by demons =D

[Camilladilla]

AlexXIV wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am just saying the whole point of putting Alistair on the throne was to keep the royal bloodline alive.

Who said that that twit Eamon read the "Wardens = infertile" memo?

Well technically I think they are not infertile. It is just less likely to happen that with non-wardens. At least that's how I understood it to happen. And the whole reason I let Alistair go marry Anora was that 2 Grey Warden producing a child is even more unlikely than a GW and a normal person. Actually that's even what Alistair said to my Warden. That he is going to be king and this requires him to have a heir.

Honestly, Cailan, after all his supposed womanizing, doesn't have a few of his own bastards floating around?

[jlb524]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I think motives are important here.....

Ultimately?  Yes.

In determining what is and isn't terrorism?  No.

Terrorism is terrorism regardless of motives.  The same way a sandwich is always a sandwich, whether or not it tastes good.

It all depends on who is making the definitions....my sandwhich may not be your sandwich.    Perhaps your sandwich has too much cheese and disqualifies it from being a true 'sandwich'.

Modifié par jlb524, 03 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well.

Imo whether or not his actions were justified is now irrelevent since the Llomeryn accord was broken very recently before and then he goes and does that? The mages were the ones to stop the last Qunari invasion and with them fighting with the templars now.. Who is going to stop them? Mages will be fighting for their freedom only to suddenly find themselves leashed in a pen.

If the mages don't submit to the Chantry, then they probably won't submit to the Qunari either. It's the Chantry's fault to not reward them better for their use- and helpfulness. In a thousand years, no less.

The Qunari dont need them to submit freely.. They can just cut their tongue out, sew their mouth togheather and use that rod to stop their highly brain functions from working.. at least thats what it seems to do.

Otherwise the other option is death for all mages, which well.. Is the worst possible outcome

I think mages have already made a choice by then that death is not worse than being oppressed. Or the whole mage rebellion would be silly. Because many are going to die.

The whole mage rebellion IS silly lol.. Not the concept of them obtaining their rightious freedom.. Just their timing since they are fighting for something they want but at the same time making it much harder to accomplish

[Esbatty]

Firky wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
They're free to go, and some in fact do if there's a logical place for them elsewhere (which is rare).

Woo. I love this thread.

And I find the Tranquil fascinating. I wonder if there'd be some reason why a family member wouldn't come and take them home. 

Now I'm wondering if Tranquil can get married.

Tranquil: Could you please remember to throw out the garbage?
Husband: Dammit woman, stop trying to cow me into being something I'm not!
Tranquil: I apologize for flying off the handle like that.
Husband: Alright, I'll be right back. Ya know - I spoil ya.

[Augustei]

Camilladilla wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am just saying the whole point of putting Alistair on the throne was to keep the royal bloodline alive.

Who said that that twit Eamon read the "Wardens = infertile" memo?

Well technically I think they are not infertile. It is just less likely to happen that with non-wardens. At least that's how I understood it to happen. And the whole reason I let Alistair go marry Anora was that 2 Grey Warden producing a child is even more unlikely than a GW and a normal person. Actually that's even what Alistair said to my Warden. That he is going to be king and this requires him to have a heir.

Honestly, Cailan, after all his supposed womanizing, doesn't have a few of his own bastards floating around?

Cailan? Womanizing? You mean Maric?

[upsettingshorts]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Actually, intent is a huge part of terrorism. The intent being to gain what one wants by use of fear and intimidation.

Definition: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

...I'm really going to explain this again.

I'm talking about the ultimate motives for engaging in the act in the first place, not the immediate intent behind utilizing that method.

So of course that is the intent, it's always the intent.  That doesn't change. 

It's the same intent whether you're a revolutionary trying to free the mages or a Pan-Nationalist Islamic fundamentalist trying to expand a Holy War.

The tactic itself is different than the cause it is used in support of.  And as you pointed out, the intent to inspire fear beign the goal of terrorism is correct - and is the reason why Cerberus is not a terrorist organization, because that has never been their intent.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:31 .

[AlexXIV]

Camilladilla wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am just saying the whole point of putting Alistair on the throne was to keep the royal bloodline alive.

Who said that that twit Eamon read the "Wardens = infertile" memo?

Well technically I think they are not infertile. It is just less likely to happen that with non-wardens. At least that's how I understood it to happen. And the whole reason I let Alistair go marry Anora was that 2 Grey Warden producing a child is even more unlikely than a GW and a normal person. Actually that's even what Alistair said to my Warden. That he is going to be king and this requires him to have a heir.

Honestly, Cailan, after all his supposed womanizing, doesn't have a few of his own bastards floating around?

Maybe Cailan was infertile.

[RomanDark]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Yeah I am just saying the whole point of putting Alistair on the throne was to keep the royal bloodline alive.

Who said that that twit Eamon read the "Wardens = infertile" memo?

Well technically I think they are not infertile. It is just less likely to happen that with non-wardens. At least that's how I understood it to happen. And the whole reason I let Alistair go marry Anora was that 2 Grey Warden producing a child is even more unlikely than a GW and a normal person. Actually that's even what Alistair said to my Warden. That he is going to be king and this requires him to have a heir.

Honestly, Cailan, after all his supposed womanizing, doesn't have a few of his own bastards floating around?

Cailan? Womanizing? You mean Maric?

Anora tells the Warden that Cailan "had his women"

[IanPolaris]

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
OK moving on then I think we can agree with Knight Captain Cullen that per WoG, Meridith's Rite of Annulment was legal (barely) but hardly justied.  Personaly I think that alone cost Meridith the loyalty of most of her Templars when it matters most in confronting the Champion...assuming a pro-mage ending.  If you side with the mages and/or are a mage, Meridith is perfectly and legally justified in calling for your execution but the Templars won't do it even if you are a mage defending the circle.  IMHO it's because most of the Templars know what Varric baldly states to Cassanda.  You were protecting the mages aginst a gross injustice....THEIR injustice...and they know it.

Oh, absolutely. Just because something is legal does not necessarily make it right or moral. I suspect what Cullen would have argued, given the chance, was that the Divine would never have agreed to the Rite of Annulment in this case. Anyone, even a Grand Cleric, would still be responsible for their actions in calling such a desperate measure after the fact.

I have to wonder if this is part of the motivation for why the Templars (apparently) seceded from the Chantry because it seems on the surface to be a rather iffy and dumb thing to do (just just because the Chantry controls the Lyrium trade but also because the Chantry gives the Templars much needed moral authority which the Kirkwell Templars in partiular desperately need to recover IMHO).

If  might also ask (you might not be able to answer):

1.  Why does a "pro-templar" Champion only last such a short time as Viscount?

2.  Would the Templars really permit a pro-templar mage to become Viscount as the epilog suggests?  [If not I would humbly suggest an alternate achievement for such mages......"First Enchanter of Kirwell" instead.]

I was referring to her lines about how the Chantry "tolerated" fraternties that wanted to seperate from the Chantry as though it were the Chantry's divine right to do so.  Also Lelianna got to see first hand what a mess Templar/Chantry oversight did the the circle and how it helped fuel Uldred's rebellion (even to the impassioned plea by  captured bloodmage) and in DAO Lelianna seemed sympathetic....VERY sypathetic to the point of arguing the point with ex-templar Alistair.  No so anymore, and I don't think I'm the only one that noticed the change.  Again perhaps there is more to this than meets the eye.

I think you can see with Anders how very frustrating it might be to deal with mages trying to force a separation even if the act is self-destructive-- in her opinion. As to whether Leliana's viewpoint has changed in the intervening years, that is something that will have to remain unknown for now. I think it's a bit much to judge her on, but I guess everyone will have to wait to find out more.

I can see that.  I kill Anders everytime and I an hardly "anti-mage" in case it wasn't clear up to now   I suppose you just have to be a tease again.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The whole mage rebellion IS silly lol.. Not the concept of them obtaining their rightious freedom.. Just their timing since they are fighting for something they want but at the same time making it much harder to accomplish

It's been almost a thousand years of living under the Chantry. I suppose their thinking was now or never.

[Lianaar]

IanPolaris wrote...
It's our emotions that define how and why we makes our choices.  Without emotions we have no more freewill than a programmed computer.  I have always said this and the game play and lore seems to bear me out on this.

I disagree with this. Various people have different level of emotions and being open to emotions, it is a personality trait. And various emotional people might not want to be free. So wanting to be free is not a feeling that people necessarily want. It is a pretty modern idea that is wide spread by now. However people eg in the Roman Empire were not free at all. They were all under the rule of the pater familias, they didn't even have the righ to go to court. It wasn't slavery. And while slaves within the Empire revolted often, family members with no rights did not. We don't see women revolt in the Empire over not having the right to leave the house without the pater familias' permit or go to court. Still we can not claim they were unemotional machines.

What my understanding of the tranquil is, that the ceremony cuts them off the Fade. That is it.
It is not a small thing, it changes them. It doesn't enslave them. It changes the way they think. Just like a car accident or a hit to your head can change the process of your thoughts.

We do have certain base values that we think are simply natural, normal. We don't even question them. Like the freedom of will and body. Regardless, you can not claim, that people having a different idea of life are just wrong. We presume that all dictatorships are wrong and oppressive (which I do agree with), however there is that little thing about Poland? The fact that after the dictator died, the system of dictatorship remained in effect? Why? If the person who uphold it were no longer there? Why did people want the system? (Not saying that Polish people prefer dictatorship to democracy.)

Tranquils make choices, those choices might not be easily understood by others, because they do not involve any sort of emotions. They do not fear, they do not hope. But it doesn't mean they are stupid or have no driving force. They don't just lie down and die after all, they do breath even if they are not ordered to do so and so on.

Sir Alrik... well, I am not exactly convinced his words are to be taken as cannon, since he said many other lies in the short intermezzo before my Hawkes killed him.

Circle mages do have rights, it was clearly stated that they were ripped from those rights in Kirkwall (like going to court against Templars). Even in western societies there are shops that need to pay protection money. It is not legal, it is not nice, it is not good, it still exist. Not for a day, but for a longer while. It is not generally applicable, not every shop needs to pay protection money, and often you can step up against it, at times you can not. Illegal actions exist.

Ideologies, systems and their realisations are different. Consider communism. It is a noble idea, people are equal and work toward the mutual goal that serves everyone best. Its realisation? The worst sort of dictatorship. There weren't a single communicstic state that had anything common with the ideology of communism at all. It has always been a rule of few over the masses they lied to in order to keep them quiet.

The ideology behind the circle is that you keep the mages together, away from people both for protecting people and protecting mages. Breaks and checks are established in the system. People chose to use them or ignore them.

In regards of the lore, I think it is important to pay attention who gives you that piece of lore, because different people have different perceptions which taint or alter the lore they provide. Often lore can be interpreted in different ways. I presume this is rather intentional as it opens a vast room for the players to justify any sort of character they want to play.

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's been almost a thousand years of living under the Chantry. I suppose their thinking was now or never.

Apparently since nothing dramatic enough to hear about or witness in Kirkwall changed after the meeting Wynne mentioned in Cumberland, the mages who had the legitimate authority to make that call thought otherwise. 

But that's just speculation on my part, the conclusion of the Cumberland meeting don't appear to have been explicitly stated anywhere to my knowledge.  Just they didn't start the revolution, and it seems if anyone had the right to - it's them.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The whole mage rebellion IS silly lol.. Not the concept of them obtaining their rightious freedom.. Just their timing since they are fighting for something they want but at the same time making it much harder to accomplish

There is an old ERA (Irish Republican Army) saying that is cruel but brutally appropriate here:

You can not make an omelette without beaking a few eggs.

I think after the gross abuse of power that Knight Commander Meridith was allowed to wield for YEARS with no Chantry oversight, the mages collectively said, "Enough.  If we are going to die, we will die on our feet.  We have nothing left to lose."

There is nothing more dangerous that people with real power that feel they have nothing left to lose....as the Chantry is currently finding out.

-Polaris

[Maria Caliban]

Given the level of discussion about Leliana and the hints of there being far more to her story than shown, does anyone else think she'll show up in future DA titles as an important character?

I mean, it would be odd to bring her back simply for a cameo.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 03 avril 2011 - 09:34 .

[Darth Krytie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Actually, intent is a huge part of terrorism. The intent being to gain what one wants by use of fear and intimidation.

Definition: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

...I'm really going to explain this again.

I'm talking about the ultimate motives for engaging in the act in the first place, not the immediate intent behind utilizing that method.

So of course that is the intent, it's always the intent.  That doesn't change. 

It's the same intent whether you're a revolutionary trying to free the mages or a Pan-Nationalist Islamic fundamentalist trying to expand a Holy War.

The tactic itself is different than the cause it is used in support of.  And as you pointed out, the intent to inspire fear beign the goal of terrorism is correct - and is the reason why Cerberus is not a terrorist organization, because that has never been their intent.

Was it Anders' inent to cause fear or intimidation? Or was it to shock people into acting? (Note: I am not discussing my own personal feelings on anyone's actions...just debating what his motives were and what he perceived his actions to cause)

[AlexXIV]

I am sure that the most creative people in the world always also have been among the most emotional people. Even if emotion does maybe not equal creativity, it is a driving force.

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's been almost a thousand years of living under the Chantry. I suppose their thinking was now or never.

Apparently since nothing dramatic enough to hear about or witness in Kirkwall changed after the meeting Wynne mentioned in Cumberland, the mages who had the legitimate authority to make that call thought otherwise. 

If the Circles broke free from Chantry control after what happened at Kirkwall, why assume no mages with legitimate authority had a hand in declaring independence?

[upsettingshorts]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Was it Anders' inent to cause fear or intimidation? Or was it to shock people into acting?

Either or.  Both intents would qualify for the same label.

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the Circles broke free from
Chantry control after what happened at Kirkwall, why assume no mages
with legitimate authority had a hand in declaring independence?

After what happened in Kirkwall is the key to your question.  After is different, the situation changed due to Anders' actions.  If we're going with my assumption that before those events, Cumberland had chosen to do nothing - and that is reasonable considering you'd think we'd have heard about it if the situation was different - then Anders forced them to change their position.  The fact that they ultimately came around to take the position he wanted just means he succeeded in forcing a revolution based on his determination that death was preferable to the status quo, not that he had the authority to make policy on behalf of all mages in Thedas.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The whole mage rebellion IS silly lol.. Not the concept of them obtaining their rightious freedom.. Just their timing since they are fighting for something they want but at the same time making it much harder to accomplish

It's been almost a thousand years of living under the Chantry. I suppose their thinking was now or never.

Any time prior to 9:33 dragon that wasn't between 6:30 steel and 7:85 storm would have been fine.. Heck never would have been better than now.. At least then they could have kept what little rights that had rather than be leashed, caged and treated essentially like animals... or dead

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 03 avril 2011 - 09:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Given the level of discussion about Leliana and the hints of there being far more to her story than shown, does anyone else think she'll show up in future DA titles as an important character?

I mean, it would be odd to bring her back simply for a cameo.

It's rumored that DA3 will take place in Orlais and that Cassandra might play a more prominent role in the story, so it seems likely.