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[RomanDark]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Actually, intent is a huge part of terrorism. The intent being to gain what one wants by use of fear and intimidation.

Definition: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

...I'm really going to explain this again.

I'm talking about the ultimate motives for engaging in the act in the first place, not the immediate intent behind utilizing that method.

So of course that is the intent, it's always the intent.  That doesn't change. 

It's the same intent whether you're a revolutionary trying to free the mages or a Pan-Nationalist Islamic fundamentalist trying to expand a Holy War.

The tactic itself is different than the cause it is used in support of.  And as you pointed out, the intent to inspire fear beign the goal of terrorism is correct - and is the reason why Cerberus is not a terrorist organization, because that has never been their intent.

Was it Anders' inent to cause fear or intimidation? Or was it to shock people into acting? (Note: I am not discussing my own personal feelings on anyone's actions...just debating what his motives were and what he perceived his actions to cause)

I believe his intent was to remove the cahnce that the situation would be resolved peacefully so that things would just go back to the way they were, by removing the Chantry he made it so the mages and templars finally had to act.

[sphinxess]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The whole mage rebellion IS silly lol.. Not the concept of them obtaining their rightious freedom.. Just their timing since they are fighting for something they want but at the same time making it much harder to accomplish

It's been almost a thousand years of living under the Chantry. I suppose their thinking was now or never.

Should have waited for the next qunori invasion

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The whole mage rebellion IS silly lol.. Not the concept of them obtaining their rightious freedom.. Just their timing since they are fighting for something they want but at the same time making it much harder to accomplish

It's been almost a thousand years of living under the Chantry. I suppose their thinking was now or never.

Given what Meridith was permitted to do by the Chantry for years up to a completely unjustified Annulment for a crime the circle didn't commit?  The loyalists pretty much lost all support I bet and the Aequarians (and I think Orsino was an Aequitarian IIRC) sided with the open Libertarians/Resolutionists.

Who do I put the primary blame on?  Suprisingly not Meridith.  Her character was a long known quantity.  I blame her SUPERIORS (Grand Cleric Elthina and the Chantry Seekers) for not enforcing (and publically so) their own damn laws.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Any time prior to 9:33 dragon that wasn't between 6:30 steel and 7:85 storm would have been fine.. Heck never would have been better for now.. At least then they could have kept what little rights that had rather than be leashed, caged and treated essentially like animals

The Circles heard about what happened from the survivors, saw that the templars could be defied (based on what Varric said), and emancipated themselves from the Chantry and the templars. We have no idea of whether the mages will maintain their independence or not.

[Darth Krytie]

RomanDark wrote...



I believe his intent was to remove the cahnce that the situation would be resolved peacefully so that things would just go back to the way they were, by removing the Chantry he made it so the mages and templars finally had to act.

Anders specifically saying something almost exactly like that clued me in. I was playing Devil's Adovcate to the claim that he was a terrorist.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Given the level of discussion about Leliana and the hints of there being far more to her story than shown, does anyone else think she'll show up in future DA titles as an important character?

I mean, it would be odd to bring her back simply for a cameo.

It's rumored that DA3 will take place in Orlais and that Cassandra might play a more prominent role in the story, so it seems likely.

And im still hoping that rumor is a lie and its actually in Tevinter lol

[IanPolaris]

sphinxess wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The whole mage rebellion IS silly lol.. Not the concept of them obtaining their rightious freedom.. Just their timing since they are fighting for something they want but at the same time making it much harder to accomplish

It's been almost a thousand years of living under the Chantry. I suppose their thinking was now or never.

Should have waited for the next qunori invasion

If the Qunari have any smarts at all (and the Arishock for one was a pretty savvy cookie), the Qunari will invade within a month of the Templars and Mages going into open war.

-Polaris

[Lianaar]

IanPolaris wrote...
If the Qunari have any smarts at all (and the Arishock for one was a pretty savvy cookie), the Qunari will invade within a month of the Templars and Mages going into open war.
-Polaris

I can certainly see this happening. It took quite a bit of nations to work together against the Qunari. And if they can not act together due to internal affairs, then they'll fall. That's what happened to the Aztecs too, no? 

[upsettingshorts]

RomanDark wrote...

I believe his intent was to remove the cahnce that the situation would be resolved peacefully so that things would just go back to the way they were, by removing the Chantry he made it so the mages and templars finally had to act.

Darth Krytie wrote...

Anders specifically saying something almost exactly like that clued me in. I was playing Devil's Adovcate to the claim that he was a terrorist.

I'm well aware of this.  And that's a textbook example of a typical motivation for terrorism.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 09:42 .

[Maria Caliban]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Was it Anders' inent to cause fear or intimidation? Or was it to shock people into acting? (Note: I am not discussing my own personal feelings on anyone's actions...just debating what his motives were and what he perceived his actions to cause)

I think Ander's intent was to cause the Chantry (and much of Thedas) to **** its pants and to induce the sort of blind panic and knee-jerk reaction that could only lead to a war.

Prior to that moment, I'm not sure people even knew a mage could destroy an entire chantry and everyone in it in the blink of an eye.

Sure, people are aware the Tventer magisters could do some scary stuff but that was way back before Andreste showed up. Entering the Fade is probably as real to the average Thedosian as the parting of the Red Sea.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 03 avril 2011 - 09:43 .

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Any time prior to 9:33 dragon that wasn't between 6:30 steel and 7:85 storm would have been fine.. Heck never would have been better for now.. At least then they could have kept what little rights that had rather than be leashed, caged and treated essentially like animals

The Circles heard about what happened from the survivors, saw that the templars could be defied (based on what Varric said), and emancipated themselves from the Chantry and the templars. We have no idea of whether the mages will maintain their independence or not.

I doubt it.. The Qunari are far more prepared than they were last time and the rest of thedas (excluding tevinter) Is far less prepaired.. They will loose their independance and their freedom by the looks of things.. It was mentioned somewhere in DA2 that they have been holding off and building their forces so they have been given about 150 years.The time between germanys official founding and WW1 when they had power to rival the rest of Europe was not even that long.. So the Qunari threat is far more serious than Thedas realises

Sure they might be able to beat the templars, which is still in itself a gamble since the Templars are trained to deal with mages.. But still possible, but then there is the Qunari threat to deal with..

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 03 avril 2011 - 09:44 .

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Any time prior to 9:33 dragon that wasn't between 6:30 steel and 7:85 storm would have been fine.. Heck never would have been better for now.. At least then they could have kept what little rights that had rather than be leashed, caged and treated essentially like animals

The Circles heard about what happened from the survivors, saw that the templars could be defied (based on what Varric said), and emancipated themselves from the Chantry and the templars. We have no idea of whether the mages will maintain their independence or not.

I don't really know how the templars could be defied. The Circle was annulled.

But I think the timing is good because the Chantry is weakended and the Qunari getting more and more restless. The Qunari situation in Kirkwall is probably a mirror to the Qunari situation on Par Vollen and Seheron. The Qun demands that the 'infidels' are brought in line, that the Qun is spread over all the world.

So there is a crisis that gnaws on the Chantry. And the Chantry would need the mages to avoid it. So if ever the Chantry was shaking it is now. Also a Blight was just prevented before it started so they probably think the worst can't happen in another couple of centuries.

[LobselVith8]

Lianaar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
If the Qunari have any smarts at all (and the Arishock for one was a pretty savvy cookie), the Qunari will invade within a month of the Templars and Mages going into open war.
-Polaris

I can certainly see this happening. It took quite a bit of nations to work together against the Qunari. And if they can not act together due to internal affairs, then they'll fall. That's what happened to the Aztecs too, no? 

Then the mages and templars might declare a ceasefire, and focus on the Qunari. Even the Chantry and Tevinter stopped going to war when the threat of the Blight posed a danger to both of them.

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Any time prior to 9:33 dragon that wasn't between 6:30 steel and 7:85 storm would have been fine.. Heck never would have been better for now.. At least then they could have kept what little rights that had rather than be leashed, caged and treated essentially like animals

The Circles heard about what happened from the survivors, saw that the templars could be defied (based on what Varric said), and emancipated themselves from the Chantry and the templars. We have no idea of whether the mages will maintain their independence or not.

I don't really know how the templars could be defied. The Circle was annulled.

But I think the timing is good because the Chantry is weakended and the Qunari getting more and more restless. The Qunari situation in Kirkwall is probably a mirror to the Qunari situation on Par Vollen and Seheron. The Qun demands that the 'infidels' are brought in line, that the Qun is spread over all the world.

So there is a crisis that gnaws on the Chantry. And the Chantry would need the mages to avoid it. So if ever the Chantry was shaking it is now. Also a Blight was just prevented before it started so they probably think the worst can't happen in another couple of centuries.

The Chantry has no control over the situation anymore. The Templars are no longer listening to them. So its up to the Templars to realise the Qunari threat. And if the codex's about Templars and them recruiting Religious Fenatics.. Essentially Zealots then Idk if they will accept mage independence.

[Darth Krytie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RomanDark wrote...

I believe his intent was to remove the cahnce that the situation would be resolved peacefully so that things would just go back to the way they were, by removing the Chantry he made it so the mages and templars finally had to act.

Darth Krytie wrote...

Anders specifically saying something almost exactly like that clued me in. I was playing Devil's Adovcate to the claim that he was a terrorist.

I'm well aware of this.  And that's a textbook example of a typical motivation for terrorism.

In the end, how it's perceived will be determined by who won. lol. Just like always.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
If the Qunari have any smarts at all (and the Arishock for one was a pretty savvy cookie), the Qunari will invade within a month of the Templars and Mages going into open war.
-Polaris

I can certainly see this happening. It took quite a bit of nations to work together against the Qunari. And if they can not act together due to internal affairs, then they'll fall. That's what happened to the Aztecs too, no? 

Then the mages and templars might declare a ceasefire, and focus on the Qunari. Even the Chantry and Tevinter stopped going to war when the threat of the Blight posed a danger to both of them.

I don't see it.  There is a nearly a thousand years of hate that's built up on both sides.  The mages probably feel (and perhaps with some justificatin given te general weakness of the Qunari against trained magic) that the mages can hole up in a smal part of Thedas and wait it out (much like the old Kdm of the Dales).

To stop this, the mages will almost certainly ask for concessions (such as an aknowledgement of their humanity and expectation of Maker given human rights that the Chantry will never accept).

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
If the Qunari have any smarts at all (and the Arishock for one was a pretty savvy cookie), the Qunari will invade within a month of the Templars and Mages going into open war.
-Polaris

I can certainly see this happening. It took quite a bit of nations to work together against the Qunari. And if they can not act together due to internal affairs, then they'll fall. That's what happened to the Aztecs too, no? 

Then the mages and templars might declare a ceasefire, and focus on the Qunari. Even the Chantry and Tevinter stopped going to war when the threat of the Blight posed a danger to both of them.

If the mages have any interest that the Chantry crumbles they will not make a cease fire. Helping the Chantry in the past didn't free the mages, and doing it again will probably have the same result. If they are seriuos about being free they first need to weaken the Chantry to a point they simply have to agree to the mage's terms. Whatever they are.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[Camilladilla]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
If the Qunari have any smarts at all (and the Arishock for one was a pretty savvy cookie), the Qunari will invade within a month of the Templars and Mages going into open war.
-Polaris

I can certainly see this happening. It took quite a bit of nations to work together against the Qunari. And if they can not act together due to internal affairs, then they'll fall. That's what happened to the Aztecs too, no? 

Then the mages and templars might declare a ceasefire, and focus on the Qunari. Even the Chantry and Tevinter stopped going to war when the threat of the Blight posed a danger to both of them.

Well, the Qunari would have to invade Tevinter first unless they want to go around the long way. But seriously, a Qunari invasion of Tevinter would be an excellent set up for one the future games that I'd love to see. Of all the regions in DA I want see Tevinter and the Anderfells. Stupid Orlais and their bad french accents *grumbles*

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I doubt it.. The Qunari are far more prepared than they were last time and the rest of thedas (excluding tevinter) Is far less prepaired.. They will loose their independance and their freedom by the looks of things.. It was mentioned somewhere in DA2 that they have been holding off and building their forces so they have been given about 150 years.The time between germanys official founding and WW1 when they had power to rival the rest of Europe was not even that long.. So the Qunari threat is far more serious than Thedas realises

Sure they might be able to beat the templars, which is still in itself a gamble since the Templars are trained to deal with mages.. But still possible, but then there is the Qunari threat to deal with..

I don't see why you think they'll lose. We have no idea what the status quo is. The Chantry lost the Circles, the templars stopped taking orders, and the Seekers possibly left the Chantry to hunt the mages. If mages were a valuable element of winning against the Qunari armies during the New Exalted Marches because their magical ability could deal with the Qunari's advanced technology, I don't see why they would necessarily lose when the Qunari's own mages can never match the power and ability of the Circle of Magi.

[sphinxess]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The whole mage rebellion IS silly lol.. Not the concept of them obtaining their rightious freedom.. Just their timing since they are fighting for something they want but at the same time making it much harder to accomplish

It's been almost a thousand years of living under the Chantry. I suppose their thinking was now or never.

Given what Meridith was permitted to do by the Chantry for years up to a completely unjustified Annulment for a crime the circle didn't commit?  The loyalists pretty much lost all support I bet and the Aequarians (and I think Orsino was an Aequitarian IIRC) sided with the open Libertarians/Resolutionists.

Who do I put the primary blame on?  Suprisingly not Meridith.  Her character was a long known quantity.  I blame her SUPERIORS (Grand Cleric Elthina and the Chantry Seekers) for not enforcing (and publically so) their own damn laws.

-Polaris

Exactly so - the seekers show up 3 years after the fact - only thing I can see is the last Divine had allowed it to lapse - only hint of this is how rapidly Leliana has risen in its ranks...

[Augustei]

What i am curious about is if the Qunari would besige Weisshaupt Fotress if they got close enough to it.. I mean Wardens claim Neutrality and are extremely important. But the Qunari dont seem to know much of the wardens besides them being great warriors.. They didn't know what the blight was when the 5th one started.

Would the Wardens accept the Qun if they established dominance? or what would happen i wonder

[AlexXIV]

Wardens are only neutral regarding 'inner politics' of Thedas. Qunari are probably considered an outside threat, so the Wardens will participate at something like an Exalted March against the Qunari. Like they did in the past.

[Deztyn]

David Gaider wrote...

The mages aren't slaves.

Some people might refer to them as such-- Anders, for one, though I don't know if he's the sort of supporting argument you want to use-- but I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that not being free and being a slave are different things.

Deztyn: Friendship (+8,520,000,000,001)

Um, sorry, what were we talking about now?

[upsettingshorts]

Darth Krytie wrote...

In the end, how it's perceived will be determined by who won. lol. Just like always.

Generally speaking yes.  Though I can look back at my own country's history, from conflicts it won, including those in which it was on the consensus side of "good" and still find things I - and others - would label as terrorism.  Most wouldn't.  

But we don't live in Thedas, ultimately we should be able to evaluate the substance and implications of actions more objectively than an in-universe historian would.