1927 réponses à ce sujet

[MacNille]

I don't see him as Anders anymore. I see him as the lovechild of Justice and Anders that have gone wrong. So Anders was not justified, He is gone. He is a spirt of vengence and like a DA version of a ****** Batman.

[Lianaar]

IanPolaris wrote...
I don't see it.  There is a nearly a thousand years of hate that's built up on both sides.  The mages probably feel (and perhaps with some justificatin given te general weakness of the Qunari against trained magic) that the mages can hole up in a smal part of Thedas and wait it out (much like the old Kdm of the Dales).

To stop this, the mages will almost certainly ask for concessions (such as an aknowledgement of their humanity and expectation of Maker given human rights that the Chantry will never accept).
-Polaris

Considering how mages are treated within the Qun society, I am unsure they would ask for anything in order to avoid that fate. Some mages would, some mages would not. Crisis management claims that the most urgent problem makes other issues fade and go forgotten until the bigger issue is resolved (just like you won't necessarily care you are hungry as long as you have to walk in a shoe hals size smaller then your feet, once you remove your shoe, you'll remember how hungry you are).

I certainly see parties acting together out of necessity, putting their fight aside, only to continue once and if the Qunari invasion is stopped. Naturally not all people can put their hate aside for existence (like Anders, who picked possibility of death instead of compromise), but most people tend to pick a way they survive. There are way less martyrs (be them validly or invalidly called so) then mass people who just want to live.

[Camilladilla]

XxDeonxX wrote...

What i am curious about is if the Qunari would besige Weisshaupt Fotress if they got close enough to it.. I mean Wardens claim Neutrality and are extremely important. But the Qunari dont seem to know much of the wardens besides them being great warriors.. They didn't know what the blight was when the 5th one started.

Would the Wardens accept the Qun if they established dominance? or what would happen i wonder

Would the Qunari even let the Wardens exist? One of the reasons the Wardens are so effective is their ability to overlook stigmas and use every advantage they can get against the darkspawn. The mage factor in particular since they do come in handy during a Blight.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

I doubt it.. The Qunari are far more prepared than they were last time and the rest of thedas (excluding tevinter) Is far less prepaired.. They will loose their independance and their freedom by the looks of things.. It was mentioned somewhere in DA2 that they have been holding off and building their forces so they have been given about 150 years.The time between germanys official founding and WW1 when they had power to rival the rest of Europe was not even that long.. So the Qunari threat is far more serious than Thedas realises

Sure they might be able to beat the templars, which is still in itself a gamble since the Templars are trained to deal with mages.. But still possible, but then there is the Qunari threat to deal with..

I don't see why you think they'll lose. We have no idea what the status quo is. The Chantry lost the Circles, the templars stopped taking orders, and the Seekers possibly left the Chantry to hunt the mages. If mages were a valuable element of winning against the Qunari armies during the New Exalted Marches because their magical ability could deal with the Qunari's advanced technology, I don't see why they would necessarily lose when the Qunari's own mages can never match the power and ability of the Circle of Magi.

The mages would certainly dictate their own terms, however, or simply sniff at the old biddies in the Chantry and say "what have you ever done for us?  We'll take our chances with the Qunari."  I see the Templars as being just as unresponsive honestly.  From a certain point of view, being a Qunari mage (Sarabas) might actually be better.  Sure they are leashed horribly, but Sarabas is treated as a position of honored respect within the Qun (and if you talk to the Arashok he says as much) which is better than what the mages get now (which is societal hatred).

I'm not saying I agree with that last, but the argument could be made especially to an ex-Kirkwall circle mage.

-Polaris

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

I doubt it.. The Qunari are far more prepared than they were last time and the rest of thedas (excluding tevinter) Is far less prepaired.. They will loose their independance and their freedom by the looks of things.. It was mentioned somewhere in DA2 that they have been holding off and building their forces so they have been given about 150 years.The time between germanys official founding and WW1 when they had power to rival the rest of Europe was not even that long.. So the Qunari threat is far more serious than Thedas realises

Sure they might be able to beat the templars, which is still in itself a gamble since the Templars are trained to deal with mages.. But still possible, but then there is the Qunari threat to deal with..

I don't see why you think they'll lose. We have no idea what the status quo is. The Chantry lost the Circles, the templars stopped taking orders, and the Seekers possibly left the Chantry to hunt the mages. If mages were a valuable element of winning against the Qunari armies during the New Exalted Marches because their magical ability could deal with the Qunari's advanced technology, I don't see why they would necessarily lose when the Qunari's own mages can never match the power and ability of the Circle of Magi.

Well because they are to busy in a struggle fighting for their freedom against Templars so their numbers would inevitably be diminishing at an unknown rate.. The Qunari are far far more prepared now than they were last time as well... Things aren't exactly looking good for the mages, just because they beat the Qunari last time, who were less prepared and the mages weren't fighting the templars as well.. And the mages weren't in disunity. doesn't mean they can this time.

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

Wardens are only neutral regarding 'inner politics' of Thedas. Qunari are probably considered an outside threat, so the Wardens will participate at something like an Exalted March against the Qunari. Like they did in the past.

They didn't participate when the Qunari attacked Kirkwall, though. I don't think they would break their neutrality.

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

I doubt it.. The Qunari are far more prepared than they were last time and the rest of thedas (excluding tevinter) Is far less prepaired.. They will loose their independance and their freedom by the looks of things.. It was mentioned somewhere in DA2 that they have been holding off and building their forces so they have been given about 150 years.The time between germanys official founding and WW1 when they had power to rival the rest of Europe was not even that long.. So the Qunari threat is far more serious than Thedas realises

Sure they might be able to beat the templars, which is still in itself a gamble since the Templars are trained to deal with mages.. But still possible, but then there is the Qunari threat to deal with..

I don't see why you think they'll lose. We have no idea what the status quo is. The Chantry lost the Circles, the templars stopped taking orders, and the Seekers possibly left the Chantry to hunt the mages. If mages were a valuable element of winning against the Qunari armies during the New Exalted Marches because their magical ability could deal with the Qunari's advanced technology, I don't see why they would necessarily lose when the Qunari's own mages can never match the power and ability of the Circle of Magi.

The mages would certainly dictate their own terms, however, or simply sniff at the old biddies in the Chantry and say "what have you ever done for us?  We'll take our chances with the Qunari."  I see the Templars as being just as unresponsive honestly.  From a certain point of view, being a Qunari mage (Sarabas) might actually be better.  Sure they are leashed horribly, but Sarabas is treated as a position of honored respect within the Qun (and if you talk to the Arashok he says as much) which is better than what the mages get now (which is societal hatred).

I'm not saying I agree with that last, but the argument could be made especially to an ex-Kirkwall circle mage.

-Polaris

This is a good point

[IanPolaris]

Camilladilla wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

What i am curious about is if the Qunari would besige Weisshaupt Fotress if they got close enough to it.. I mean Wardens claim Neutrality and are extremely important. But the Qunari dont seem to know much of the wardens besides them being great warriors.. They didn't know what the blight was when the 5th one started.

Would the Wardens accept the Qun if they established dominance? or what would happen i wonder

Would the Qunari even let the Wardens exist? One of the reasons the Wardens are so effective is their ability to overlook stigmas and use every advantage they can get against the darkspawn. The mage factor in particular since they do come in handy during a Blight.

If we take Sten at his word (and esp if he makes his report to the Arishok) then I strongly suspect the Qunari would leave the Grey Wardens alone.  The Grey Wardens alone of the orders of Thedas seem to be what the Qunari would regard as "Basalit-an" and an essential part of the Qun even as honored outsiders.

As for how the Qun treat mages, I think most mages would say to the Chantry, "and your seekers and templars that want to murder us all is so much better?  We'll take our chances with the Qunari"

-Polaris

[Augustei]

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 04 avril 2011 - 01:55 .

[Darth Krytie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

In the end, how it's perceived will be determined by who won. lol. Just like always.

Generally speaking yes.  Though I can look back at my own country's history, from conflicts it won, including those in which it was on the consensus side of "good" and still find things I - and others - would label as terrorism.  Most wouldn't.  

But we don't live in Thedas, ultimately we should be able to evaluate the substance and implications of actions more objectively than an in-universe historian would. 

Mainly because it boils down to connotation.  While the denotation--using the word terrorism to describe certain actions-in this instance is correct, the connotation behind the use of terrorism is generally a negative, an unjust or unreasonable cause. Ergo, if the person in question ends up leading a huge change and is seen, ultimately, as a hero, the negative associations with the word would lead to using an alternate phraseology.

[upsettingshorts]

Camilladilla wrote...

Would the Qunari even let the Wardens exist?

Unmolested?  I doubt it.  I figure they'd choose which members of their society would be best suited to being Grey Wardens, and have them undertake the Joining.  Then they would serve that purpose like any other purpose.

The Qunari don't waste, and they don't fail to recognize that certain jobs need to be done.  As an order with a purpose I actually think they'd flourish under the Qunari.  They certainly wouldn't have to keep half the **** about them secret anymore, because it's not like the Qun asks for volunteers.

Darth Krytie wrote...

Ergo, if the person in question ends up leading a huge change and is seen, ultimately, as a hero, the negative associations with the word would lead to using an alternate phraseology.

If we're talking about what people who support Anders' cause would call it in Thedas, that's fine.

I'm only really talking about what we - as players and forum-goers - should call it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 10:00 .

[Mr.House]

Anders should have blown up the Templar hall, not the Chantry filled with innocent people WHO ARE NOT EVEN PART OF THE WAR.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Wardens are only neutral regarding 'inner politics' of Thedas. Qunari are probably considered an outside threat, so the Wardens will participate at something like an Exalted March against the Qunari. Like they did in the past.

They didn't participate when the Qunari attacked Kirkwall, though. I don't think they would break their neutrality.

As I said before, the Qunari if you talk to Sten clearly regard the Grey Wardens as necessary (esp if Sten makes his report to the Arishok) and are clearly regarded as "Basalit-an" or respected outsiders.  I am fairly certain the Grey Warden neutrality will be honored by the Qunari if they wish to sit it out.

-Polari9s

[Deztyn]

Polaris, You're arguing for the Qunari's treatment of mages? Over the Chantry?

Seriously?

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Well because they are to busy in a struggle fighting for their freedom against Templars so their numbers would inevitably be diminishing at an unknown rate.. The Qunari are far far more prepared now than they were last time as well... Things aren't exactly looking good for the mages, just because they beat the Qunari last time, who were less prepared and the mages weren't fighting the templars as well.. And the mages weren't in disunity. doesn't mean they can this time.

We have no idea what type of unity the Circles of Magi may have with one another. We're pretty much in the dark about the current state of affairs involving the Circles, the templars, and the Seekers. What little we do know just allows us to be aware of the fact that the Circles broke free, the templars stopped taking orders, and the Seekers might be hunting the mages. If the Qunari try to invade, the Andrastian nations are going to respond with their armies. It's not going to simply be an issue of the Qunari v. the Magi.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Wardens are only neutral regarding 'inner politics' of Thedas. Qunari are probably considered an outside threat, so the Wardens will participate at something like an Exalted March against the Qunari. Like they did in the past.

They didn't participate when the Qunari attacked Kirkwall, though. I don't think they would break their neutrality.

Well they were busy. They had 2 reasons not to participate. One is neutrality and the other that they were onto something more important. And they probably figured Kirkwall would not fall to the Qunari anyway.

[Augustei]

Deztyn wrote...

Polaris, You're arguing for the Qunari's treatment of mages? Over the Chantry?

Seriously?

he didn't really say the Qun was better, he said that the mages of kirkwall could likely perceive it as better

[IanPolaris]

Mr.House wrote...

Anders should have blown up the Templar hall, not the Chantry filled with innocent people WHO ARE NOT EVEN PART OF THE WAR.

The Chantry is very much part of the war and has been for almost a thousand years (certainly for at least 700 from the formation of the physical circles...see History of the Circle Codex).  Grand Cleric Elthina is particularly culpable because it was her job as KC Meridith's immediate superior to insure that the Templars respected and obeyed chantry law and she utterly failed to do so or keep her unruly subordinate in line.

Many innocents died whent he Chantry was bombed, but GC Elthin was no innocent.

-Polaris

[Lianaar]

XxDeonxX wrote...
he didn't really say the Qun was better, he said that the mages of kirkwall could likely perceive it as better

I argue with the adjective likely.
Some of the mages could prefer that way of life, but saying that is their likely choice is just unbased presumption.

[AlexXIV]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Polaris, You're arguing for the Qunari's treatment of mages? Over the Chantry?

Seriously?

he didn't really say the Qun was better, he said that the mages of kirkwall could likely perceive it as better

I don't really think so. Qunari use their mages just like the Chantry does. Yes, the mages have a role in the Qun just like mages have in the Chantry. They need them to kill enemies. But if there was no outside threat, both the Qunari and the Chantry would rather kill all their mages than take the chances with them causing trouble.

[IanPolaris]

Deztyn wrote...

Polaris, You're arguing for the Qunari's treatment of mages? Over the Chantry?

Seriously?

No.,  I am not.  I am pointing out that for an ex-Kirkwall mage, this argument can be made very seriously without laughing.  Kirkwall was that bad.  At least as a Sarabas, you have an honored and  fully accepted role in society and the opportunity to earn true honor and respect in it as the Arishok will tell Hawke.  That's better than most mages in Thedas can expect.

-Polaris

[Darth Krytie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

Would the Qunari even let the Wardens exist?

Unmolested?  I doubt it.  I figure they'd choose which members of their society would be best suited to being Grey Wardens, and have them undertake the Joining.  Then they would serve that purpose like any other purpose.

The Qunari don't waste, and they don't fail to recognize that certain jobs need to be done.  As an order with a purpose I actually think they'd flourish under the Qunari.  They certainly wouldn't have to keep half the **** about them secret anymore, because it's not like the Qun asks for volunteers.

Darth Krytie wrote...

Ergo, if the person in question ends up leading a huge change and is seen, ultimately, as a hero, the negative associations with the word would lead to using an alternate phraseology.

If we're talking about what people who support Anders' cause would call it in Thedas, that's fine.

I'm only really talking about what we - as players and forum-goers - should call it.

Should? That's a tricky word. I think people should be able to call it how they perceive it, honestly. Though, I'll hasten to say that I think as long as people aren't rudely dismissing anyone's legitimate use of terminology, it's not an issue of who should call which thing what.

[IanPolaris]

Lianaar wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
he didn't really say the Qun was better, he said that the mages of kirkwall could likely perceive it as better

I argue with the adjective likely.
Some of the mages could prefer that way of life, but saying that is their likely choice is just unbased presumption.

I didn't even say likely.  I am saying that for some (Kirkwell) the situation got so bad that the Qunari don't seem like a bad alternative.  After all, the Qunari DO respect their own laws which is more than I can say for KC Meridith.

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

I say should because there are no - or indeed very few - such examples of posters trying to rationalize what Meredith did as something more benign and palatable because they support her cause. It would be unjust (heh) to hold Anders to a different standard for whatever reason people end up doing so - either because they support his cause, romanced his character, or just like cats.

It just seems like when the terrorism word is sidestepped or handwaved it's by posters who want the story to be something it isn't, because it makes them feel better about it when it's something it's not, or they simply don't have the experience of dealing with such concepts in a way that isn't personal and uncomfortable. It isn't always like that, but it often is.  However, that doesn't change the content of the game.

But yes, it is a tricky position.  And I get that what I'm doing is preaching, I just pick the topics over which I do so carefully.  This is one of them.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[Lianaar]

I didn't say you claim they are likely to chose that option. I argued with the satement (no matter who made it) that it is a likely choice. Depending on personality of said mage it might be a valid choice.
I do see the sarabaas as respected people within the Qun. While they are a "magic wand", just because you have no need of them right now, you won't just break it in two. You'll care for it in order for it to perform his role later in life.

As a side note, sarabaas -are- slaves, way more then any tranquil ever was. They have no freedom, they have no dreams, they have not way to think for themselves, no desires, no wishes. They are as close as you come to automated magic source. They are still people, but if anyone calls slaves, sarabaas are the one to point at.