1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Blowing up a chantry just for fun = not terrorism
Blowing up a chantry to send a message and elimating the one possible chance for peace = terrorism (it's also heretical)

[Wulfram]

Do we have any idea how many mages there actually are? And how many of those are apostates. Because sometimes it seems like there aren't very many, and sometimes it seems like there are loads.
It's hard to assess this sort of situation without some idea if you're talking about locking up 1 in 10, 1 in 100 or 1 in 100000

[Esbatty]

leonia42 wrote...

Blowing up a chantry just for fun = not terrorism
Blowing up a chantry to send a message and elimating the one possible chance for peace = terrorism (it's also heretical)

I don't know why he couldn't just like bring Sandal with him... the kids got a history with magic and explosions. Its not like they're gonna kill 'im or anything. He's Sandal. Shoot I'd take him with me to the Meredith fight if I could.

[Dave of Canada]

sphinxess wrote...

Or history could be written that the bombing of the Kirkwall chantry was the first blow in the dragon age mage-templar war - kinda a boston teaparty deal

And just because people might (or might not) view him in a positive light because of it doesn't change the intentions of the bombing and methods he used.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

I'd have to agree. Anders, despite what he did, is more sympathetic (to me anyway) than Meredith.

I think it's also an issue of Meredith ordering the execution of every mage for something they didn't do. The Free Marches have two Circles of Magi: Starkhaven and Kirkwall. With Starkhaven having lost its Circle, the population would likely be directed to Kirkwall. Hundreds, or possibly thousands, or mages and apprentices residing in the Gallows - all of whom are being condemned to die because of Meredith's edict. It wasn't a course of action that I could endorse.

[upsettingshorts]

Dont you hate it when you make a major edit to a post, then see it quoted once and the discussion already on the next page?  My solution?  Quote it to post it again!

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He is a terrorist and a revolutionary. Whether or not you care about the former or the latter more depends on your perspective, but he is both.

Any "others" who would deny that he is either of those things either has an agenda or doesn't understand the point of making the argument that he is both in the first place.  It comes down to ends and means.  It's not a question of ends vs. ends or means vs. means - that wouldn't make any sense though that is where many posters minds end up going.  There has to be both, because one doesn't happen independent of the other.  They are intertwined because one is a tactic and method, the other is a motivation and goal.  Do the ends justify the means?  That's the point, and that's what we as players are left to decide. 

The problem - from where I sit, anyway - is when we deny the means when discussing one point of view (the mages) and then concentrate solely on them discussing the other (templars).  Though I don't think there's too much of that going on here, it is pretty common.  Or at least was.

[AlexXIV]

Wulfram wrote...

Do we have any idea how many mages there actually are? And how many of those are apostates. Because sometimes it seems like there aren't very many, and sometimes it seems like there are loads.
It's hard to assess this sort of situation without some idea if you're talking about locking up 1 in 10, 1 in 100 or 1 in 100000

Well there are probably not thousands of mages. The Qunari were only a few hundret and were a serious threat to Kirkwall. So I guess there can't have been thousand of mages and templars in Kirkwall.

[Deztyn]

AlexXIV wrote...
No. You see him as a terrorist, others don't. Your definition or opinion is not more valuable than others. I don't think 'terrorist' is a term people in Thedas even use. At least I have not heard it yet.

He's a terrorist. Whether they use the term or not. His actions meet the definition of terrorism. That doesn't necessarily mean he's not justified. Or that he won't be fondly remembered as a revolutionary or freedom fighter instead.

It doesn't really matter if the word exists in Thedas or not. If a human likes having sex with corpses. They're a necrophile. Even if they've never heard the term before the meaning of the word is clear.

Modifié par Deztyn, 03 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Do we have any idea how many mages there actually are? And how many of those are apostates. Because sometimes it seems like there aren't very many, and sometimes it seems like there are loads.
It's hard to assess this sort of situation without some idea if you're talking about locking up 1 in 10, 1 in 100 or 1 in 100000

Well there are probably not thousands of mages. The Qunari were only a few hundret and were a serious threat to Kirkwall. So I guess there can't have been thousand of mages and templars in Kirkwall.

Kirkwall is the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches, with the Starkhaven Circle burned down. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the thousands because it's the closest Circle of Magi the city-states have.

[Maria Caliban]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

So, in the end, Anders is a terrorist or a revolutionary or a freedom fighter or a martyr

There is no "or", he IS a terrorist. He can be more than one thing, just because he's a terrorist doesn't stop him from being a freedom fighter/martyr or whatever else. 

Seriously.

He blew up a church. He did so knowing that not one Templar was within it, only various priests and worshipers. He then turns around and admits that he did it specifically because he knew people would react to it far more profoundly than if he'd killed anyone else.

It's a textbook act of terrorism.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 03 avril 2011 - 10:42 .

[Vormaerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Kirkwall is the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches, with the Starkhaven Circle burned down. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the thousands because it's the closest Circle of Magi the city-states have.

The economics of that is just unfeasible.  You'd need a huge population to support that many idle specialists, plus the Templars to guard them, and who knows what else.  

[IanPolaris]

Lianaar wrote...

@Ian
You presume awful lot. Just like there is no "all mages are bloodmages", there is also no "all templars kill mages at sight". It is just not how life works. Mages are just as "unified" as chantry or templars, aka not at all. A bunch of people with different flow of thoughts come together for some purposes. Cullan stepped up against Meredith. Why? If all templars are out to hunt down mages? How about Thrask? How about all the templars that were in a rebellion against Meredith with the mages? How about Carver if he survived?

With respect I'm not.  I am not saying that all Templars do in fact kill every mage they see.  I am talking about the mage's perception of the Chantry and Templars post-Kirwall, and I believe I've hit on that perception dead centre.  The Mages apparently believe (true or not it no longer matters), that if they submit to the Chantry ever again, they will be sumarily killed just as soon as they stop being useful against the Qunari....and based on what Meridith has done there is real substance to those fears.

Given that, and given that the mages expect to die anyway, why should they help the Chantry who has abused them for a thousand years?  They wouldn't!  Especially not when hatreds have built up in that same thousand years and in a war, the radicals are likely to be in command. 

If the free nations of Thedas starting with openly Mage Friendly (or even an explicit mage-haven) like Fereldan might get the mages to fight against the Qunari (and indeed I think that is what will ultimately happen) but the mages will forever view the Chantry and Templars as negotiators in bad faith.  Meridith is to blame for much of that and justifiably so.

You paradigma is: mages either die by templars or accept the Qun.
I think there are way more room for mages to move in.

Why should we (mages) help you so you can imprison and kill us at you whim again?  You'ive lied to us before, Chantry Seekers and failed to enforce even your most inadequte laws.  Go away and I hope the Qunari put you on a spit like you deserve.  Seriously, that is fully what I expect the mages to say to the Chantry (which is WHY they need the Champion so badly).  The Free nations/nobles of Thedas (esp Fereldan and Orzammar....very different matter).

There is no Chantry, Templars and Mages. There are people of the chantry, mothers, sisters, there are knight commanders, templars, and mages. I can not see Bethany or Wynne running to the Qun to save their lives. I can rather see them fight alongside the templars to save the general population from being killed (since the Qunary kill anyone or force them to be mindless workers if they don't agree to the Qun). Though admittedly, the mindless worker part only comes from Fenris, and I am not sure how trustworthy he is. I took him as such in the topic of Qun.

The Qun gives pupose and honor.  I can see that as appealing to some mages who have known nothing but rejection and hatred.  I don't agree with it, but I can see the point.

I would also point out that not all mages are selfish enough to want to see the world fall just so they can laugh saying: see? You died without me. I think quite a few mages have other people they care for. Biased from me to hope such, correct.

The Mages are in a war for their very survival against very bad odds and they know it.  That means the radical resolutionists will almost certainly be calling the shots.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Do we have any idea how many mages there actually are? And how many of those are apostates. Because sometimes it seems like there aren't very many, and sometimes it seems like there are loads.
It's hard to assess this sort of situation without some idea if you're talking about locking up 1 in 10, 1 in 100 or 1 in 100000

Well there are probably not thousands of mages. The Qunari were only a few hundret and were a serious threat to Kirkwall. So I guess there can't have been thousand of mages and templars in Kirkwall.

Kirkwall is the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches, with the Starkhaven Circle burned down. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the thousands because it's the closest Circle of Magi the city-states have.

I know that gamemechanics don't mean much, but Hawke kills hundrets of Qunari while in Kirkwall. With only 3 others to help him/her. Also we know that the Arishok only stranded there with little more than 200 Qunari and the numbers dwindled over the years and he restocked them with elves or other converts. And the Viscount says he has no means to force the Qunari out of the town. If there were a thousand mages in Kirkwall, there would at least have to be a thousand templars to keep them in check. And to think that 2000 mages and templars can't force 200 Qunari out of the town seems ... unlikely.

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

I know that gamemechanics don't mean much, but Hawke kills hundrets of Qunari while in Kirkwall. With only 3 others to help him/her. Also we know that the Arishok only stranded there with little more than 200 Qunari and the numbers dwindled over the years and he restocked them with elves or other converts. And the Viscount says he has no means to force the Qunari out of the town. If there were a thousand mages in Kirkwall, there would at least have to be a thousand templars to keep them in check. And to think that 2000 mages and templars can't force 200 Qunari out of the town seems ... unlikely.

Yes but don't forget that the Viscount has just enough authority to blow his nose and wipe his behind if Meridith co-signs the order.  The city of Kirkwall easily has enough forces to kick the Qunari out (and it's proven at the end of Act 2....the Combined Forces of Kirkwall easily defeat the Qunari after the initial Quanri suprise attack (it's the Champion that saves all the lives of the nobles/hostages the Qunari have taken and it's how he/she becomes champion).  The problem is the Viscount can only (sometimes) rely on the City Guard and the Qunari hopelessly outclass the city guards and they get no magical support (a point that Avaline complains about bitterly).

If Meridith really wanted to get rid of the Qunari, she could have at any time.  I think she enjoyed watching the Viscount squirm and was as suprised as anyone when the Qunari decided to stop playing nice.

-Polaris

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

He blew up a church. He did so knowing that not one Templar was within it, only various priests and worshipers. He then turns around and admits that he did it specifically because he knew people would react to it far more profoundly than if he'd killed anyone else.

There are Templars in it.

Or one, at the least.

Replay the blowing up of the Chantry again and you'll see a Templar is with the Revered Mother.

[AlexXIV]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

He blew up a church. He did so knowing that not one Templar was within it, only various priests and worshipers. He then turns around and admits that he did it specifically because he knew people would react to it far more profoundly than if he'd killed anyone else.

There are Templars in it.

Or one, at the least.

Replay the blowing up of the Chantry again and you'll see a Templar is with the Revered Mother.

Actually I doubt the Grand Cleric does only have one body guard, or templar guarding her. I mean how easy would they make it for Chantry haters to kill a Grand Cleric anyway?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 avril 2011 - 10:58 .

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kirkwall is the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches, with the Starkhaven Circle burned down. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the thousands because it's the closest Circle of Magi the city-states have.

I know that gamemechanics don't mean much, but Hawke kills hundrets of Qunari while in Kirkwall. With only 3 others to help him/her. Also we know that the Arishok only stranded there with little more than 200 Qunari and the numbers dwindled over the years and he restocked them with elves or other converts. And the Viscount says he has no means to force the Qunari out of the town. If there were a thousand mages in Kirkwall, there would at least have to be a thousand templars to keep them in check. And to think that 2000 mages and templars can't force 200 Qunari out of the town seems ... unlikely.

The problem is we have no idea what it translates to from game mechanics. Are 2000 mages facing 2000 Qunari while Hawke, Orsino, and Meredith try to enter the Viscount's Keep? Maybe the question of the Kirkwall population should be asked the next time Gaider visits.

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I know that gamemechanics don't mean much, but Hawke kills hundrets of Qunari while in Kirkwall. With only 3 others to help him/her. Also we know that the Arishok only stranded there with little more than 200 Qunari and the numbers dwindled over the years and he restocked them with elves or other converts. And the Viscount says he has no means to force the Qunari out of the town. If there were a thousand mages in Kirkwall, there would at least have to be a thousand templars to keep them in check. And to think that 2000 mages and templars can't force 200 Qunari out of the town seems ... unlikely.

Yes but don't forget that the Viscount has just enough authority to blow his nose and wipe his behind if Meridith co-signs the order.  The city of Kirkwall easily has enough forces to kick the Qunari out (and it's proven at the end of Act 2....the Combined Forces of Kirkwall easily defeat the Qunari after the initial Quanri suprise attack (it's the Champion that saves all the lives of the nobles/hostages the Qunari have taken and it's how he/she becomes champion).  The problem is the Viscount can only (sometimes) rely on the City Guard and the Qunari hopelessly outclass the city guards and they get no magical support (a point that Avaline complains about bitterly).

If Meridith really wanted to get rid of the Qunari, she could have at any time.  I think she enjoyed watching the Viscount squirm and was as suprised as anyone when the Qunari decided to stop playing nice.

-Polaris

Well that's possible, but then I wonder why it wasn't further addressed in the game. I mean then Meredith would partly be responsible for the rise of the qunari because she could have saved many innocent lives if she acted sooner. Also I almost feel that Hawke could just have singlehandedly removed the Qunari menace. Not all at once, but in small balanced groups.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

AlexXIV wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

He blew up a church. He did so knowing that not one Templar was within it, only various priests and worshipers. He then turns around and admits that he did it specifically because he knew people would react to it far more profoundly than if he'd killed anyone else.

There are Templars in it.

Or one, at the least.

Replay the blowing up of the Chantry again and you'll see a Templar is with the Revered Mother.

Actually I doubt the Grand Cleric does only have one body guard, or templar guarding her. I mean how easy would they make it for Chantry haters to kill a Grand Cleric anyway?

People probably assume there are no Templars in there because IIRC you never see them in there except as part of an Anders quest.

Anyway, I grabbed a screenshot for the lazy...



Note the Templar in the bottom right

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 03 avril 2011 - 11:01 .

[Maria Caliban]

There's no way to guess. We don't know the population of the Free Marches. We don't know how many people become mages. We don't know how many mages are captured by the Templars (I killed a slew of apostates in DA II). We don't know how many mages survived the burning of Starkhaven.

Medieval prisons topped out at about 250 prisoners held at one time, but the Circle is meant for long term living.

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Do we have any idea how many mages there actually are? And how many of those are apostates. Because sometimes it seems like there aren't very many, and sometimes it seems like there are loads.
It's hard to assess this sort of situation without some idea if you're talking about locking up 1 in 10, 1 in 100 or 1 in 100000

Well there are probably not thousands of mages. The Qunari were only a few hundret and were a serious threat to Kirkwall. So I guess there can't have been thousand of mages and templars in Kirkwall.

Isn't it like one of the biggest in Thedas? Also the Qunari are excellent stratigests and warriors their plan to take over detail went down to the finest detail i would imagine, Plus they have powerful explosives as well. The Qunari were made out to be less of a threat to Kirkwall anyway in the end

[Lianaar]

IanPolaris wrote...
I am talking about the mage's perception of the Chantry and Templars post-Kirwall, and I believe I've hit on that perception dead centre. 

This is exactly what I meant by saying you presume an awful lot.
Sorry, but you can not validly speak for all mages' perception. There are mages (not sure how many) who agree with this. And there are mages (not sure how many) who totally disagree with this. Bethany specifically.

IanPolaris wrote...
The Mages apparently believe (true or not it no longer matters), that if they submit to the Chantry ever again, they will be sumarily killed just as soon as they stop being useful against the Qunari....and based on what Meridith has done there is real substance to those fears.

You believe, that I can accept. All mages believe? Uhm, no!
Kirkwall was a single spot in Thedas. While many people were watching, Kirkwall never will be Thedas. You can not expect that a Fereldan circle mage reacts the same way as Kirkwall mage or an Orlais mage (as you indicated this too). Their circumstances are so much different. Just like a Kirkwall mage will react different to Qunary, because of the past they had.

IanPolaris wrote...
Given that, and given that the mages expect to die anyway, why should they help the Chantry who has abused them for a thousand years?  They wouldn't!  Especially not when hatreds have built up in that same thousand years and in a war, the radicals are likely to be in command. 

Many mages believe in the necessity of Circles (again Bethany? ) Many mages do not agree that if they need to die, then to the hell with everyone else. Why they would help? Uhm, because the life of other people, non mages, non templars, non chantry sisters, mothers is at stake? For quite a few it is enough. For quite a few it matters not.

IanPolaris wrote...
but the mages will forever view the Chantry and Templars as negotiators in bad faith.  Meridith is to blame for much of that and justifiably so.

You sure of that? Why? Because you presume? What of people who actually believe in Chantry? Who believe the Chantry represent the will of the Maker and Andastre? Those mages would accept the rle of the Chantry because of their faith. And quite a large section of Thedas (and the mages) believe in the Maker and his will.

IanPolaris wrote...
Why should we (mages) help you so you can imprison and kill us at you whim again?  

Because the price will not be paid by those who lied and mistreated the mages, but everyone. Because some see beyond their own borders and consider the fate of a whole nation, land. Some don't care, but some do.

IanPolaris wrote...
Go away and I hope the Qunari put you on a spit like you deserve. 

Again, not everyone is consumed by vengence, not everyone has a reason to be vengeful and not everyone is bloodthirsty. Some are. (Thank you Anders for proving that.)

IanPolaris wrote...
Seriously, that is fully what I expect the mages to say to the Chantry (which is WHY they need the Champion so badly).  The Free nations/nobles of Thedas (esp Fereldan and Orzammar....very different matter).

If that's an opinion, nothing to argue there. You are entitled to your opinion.
I do expect the Qunary to launch an attack. I believe that the nations will (just like they di before) unite against the Qunary. I am not sure the agreement will come in time. I can even imagine a new mage state to be established by revolutionarists, something different then Tevinter (since power alone doesn't necessarily need to corrupt).

There are very few things I see as facts in this game's universe: 
- a war is comming (parties are forming, and questionable)
- the world is being rearranged, so Thedas as we know it will be shaped differently.
and that's it.

IanPolaris wrote...
The Qun gives pupose and honor.  I can see that as appealing to some mages who have known nothing but rejection and hatred.  I don't agree with it, but I can see the point.

The Qun takes away your life as a mage, you can not have children, you can not speak, you will endure physical pain and humiliation. If you are concirned for the better of the society as a whole (the one you live at) this can give you a purpose that makes your personal suffering worth going through with it. If you are individualistic and do not wish to sacrifice your self and individuum at this manner, then no, it is not appealing.
(I do find the Quen appealing to many aspects. It is a very controversial set of believes, alas not topic of this conversation, there are other threads discussing the Qun).

IanPolaris wrote...
The Mages are in a war for their very survival against very bad odds and they know it.  That means the radical resolutionists will almost certainly be calling the shots.
-Polaris

There is a war, however the mages might unite against the revolutionists too. Quite a few wars were lost by the "backcountry" stepping out from behind the front people. Especially if the backcountry never was asked about the war.

Many mages were unhappy with Anders decision. Considering that the faith in Maker is still ruling faith over Thedas (or that was my reading of Thedas) and the Maker being attacked directly.

I think it is wrong to speak for all mages in Thedas, they are too varried to make such calls. Alas, I do love diversity.

Modifié par Lianaar, 03 avril 2011 - 11:05 .

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well that's possible, but then I wonder why it wasn't further addressed in the game. I mean then Meredith would partly be responsible for the rise of the qunari because she could have saved many innocent lives if she acted sooner. Also I almost feel that Hawke could just have singlehandedly removed the Qunari menace. Not all at once, but in small balanced groups.

Maybe partially but IMHO not very.  I blame Meridith for a lot of things, but letting the Viscount squirm when dealing with the Qunari while trying to keep reign on her own people lest they provoke a war with the Qunari that one sane or even semi-sane wants (including Meridith at the time) seems very reasonable.  Once the shock wore off, she wasted no time trying to take command and deal with the Qunari, but it made her look bad and you could tell she was sane and very angry about it.  Angry enough to give open sanction to practice forbidden magic in order to rid of the Qunari....and that's a lot coming from Meridith.

No.  I think this was a rare case where she was actually (semi) reasonble (even if she probably enjoyed the Viscount's discomfortiture), and was as shocked as anyone when the Arishock stopped playing ball.

-Polaris

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Do we have any idea how many mages there actually are? And how many of those are apostates. Because sometimes it seems like there aren't very many, and sometimes it seems like there are loads.
It's hard to assess this sort of situation without some idea if you're talking about locking up 1 in 10, 1 in 100 or 1 in 100000

Well there are probably not thousands of mages. The Qunari were only a few hundret and were a serious threat to Kirkwall. So I guess there can't have been thousand of mages and templars in Kirkwall.

Kirkwall is the only Circle of Magi in the Free Marches, with the Starkhaven Circle burned down. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the thousands because it's the closest Circle of Magi the city-states have.

I know that gamemechanics don't mean much, but Hawke kills hundrets of Qunari while in Kirkwall. With only 3 others to help him/her. Also we know that the Arishok only stranded there with little more than 200 Qunari and the numbers dwindled over the years and he restocked them with elves or other converts. And the Viscount says he has no means to force the Qunari out of the town. If there were a thousand mages in Kirkwall, there would at least have to be a thousand templars to keep them in check. And to think that 2000 mages and templars can't force 200 Qunari out of the town seems ... unlikely.

The Viscount has no authority over the mages or templars, they aren't a means to use to get the Qunari out as far as he should be concerned

[Wozza78]

I don't believe he was justified... murder is murder. I get that Anders thought is was the only way.. but especially in light of the fact that the Templars were being lead by a possessed mad woman and not the kind caring Divine Mother. Mages in DAO II are a danger because of the risk of possession they constantly have to face. They are basically walking time bombs... and need to be watched. Anders turned Justice into a demon... and therefore he was an abomination... Justice became Vengeance. In my game I executed Anders but it was a tough decision.