1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Meredith's base is the same building as the Gallows, where all the mages are kept. He would've killed not only her and all the templars, but also all the mages he was trying to free.

He did that anyway.

No he didn't. He sparked a conflict, but Varric clearly states in the epilogue that a good number of mages (the majority, in fact) escaped to other circles and spread the word. Or at least, that's how it played out for me, as a mage supporter.

Some mages dying indirectly as the end result of his actions is not the same as all of them dying immediatly in an explosion.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

So, what have we learned while I was sleeping?

1.  Mages aren't slaves.
2.  Tranquil mages aren't slaves.
3.  Meredith did indeed have the authority to invoke the Rite of Anullment.
4.  Codex entries aren't always completely accurate.

So, I guess that line of discussion is over, no? 

Yes, we all learned that Meredith was legally in her right to commit genocide against countless men, women, and children for something they had nothing to do with.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

The Tranquil are not forced to do anything. They are free to leave the Circle, as they are no longer mages. They remain because they have no other life, and the world beyond the Circle would hardly be welcoming to someone like them-- and would probably not distinguish between "mage" and "ex-mage" anyhow. They can serve in a useful capacity in the Circle and live comfortably, so they do so.

This is interesting to hear. Combined with the instance when Anders/Justice somehow manages to temporarily reverse Karl's "tranquility state"... would it be --theoretically-- possible for a tranquil to make decision to leave the Circle and go on search of means to restore his/her link to the Fade?

also, would it mean there's no "technical" lore reasons against having a tranquil companion? Since they aren't forced to stay in the Circle and, if i understand it right, there's no basis for templars to take such person away so they don't need to hide or anything like that.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[Wugger]

Ander's act was evil. He murdered a good woman and god knows how many innocents just practising their religion. He forced a city into a war which could have been averted, and therefore led to the deaths of countless others. Worst still, he didn't seem to regret his murdering at all, seriously no character has ever made me more angry in any game I've played, hats off to Bioware on that one.

I'm a little shocked at how so many people aren't bothered by what is a blatant act of terroism, though I guess it is a game.

Modifié par Wugger, 03 avril 2011 - 04:48 .

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

So, what have we learned while I was sleeping?

1.  Mages aren't slaves.

But they are clearly imprisoned and unjustly imprisoned, but yes not slaves.

2.  Tranquil mages aren't slaves.

Actually they are if you accept that the act of tranquility robs the person of their soul (which is canon) and apparent freewill (which it seems to during the game).  They fit a very important definition of slave.

3.  Meredith did indeed have the authority to invoke the Rite of Anullment.

I still am rubbed the wrong way on this because this sudden "WoG" seems utterly contrary to all the pre-existing game lore and verisimilitude of the game, but that is the "official" word of DG.

4.  Codex entries aren't always completely accurate.

So, I guess that line of discussion is over, no? 

Hardly.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

The Tranquil are not forced to do anything. They are free to leave the Circle, as they are no longer mages. They remain because they have no other life, and the world beyond the Circle would hardly be welcoming to someone like them-- and would probably not distinguish between "mage" and "ex-mage" anyhow. They can serve in a useful capacity in the Circle and live comfortably, so they do so.

This is interesting to hear. Combined with the instance when Anders/Justice somehow manages to temporarily reverse Karl's "tranquility state"... would it be --theoretically-- possible for a tranquil to make decision to leave the Circle and go on search of means to restore his/her link to the Fade?

also, would it mean there's no "technical" lore reasons against having a tranquil companion? Since they aren't forced to stay in the Circle and, if i understand it right, there's no basis for templars to take such person away so they don't need to hide or anything like that.

Karl is the best possible evidence that I can show, that the so called "freedom" that tranquil have is nothing but a bitter and cruel joke and they have no true free will.  Consider that tranquil Karl was willing to do anything the templars told him, but when he became untranquiled, he begged to be killed lest he once again became a templar puppet that could literally not think of the emotional context of his actions.

Karl is the best and truest picture of what its like to be tranquil and it does indeed seem to mean slavery and forced lack of effective free will.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So, what have we learned while I was sleeping?

1.  Mages aren't slaves.
2.  Tranquil mages aren't slaves.
3.  Meredith did indeed have the authority to invoke the Rite of Anullment.
4.  Codex entries aren't always completely accurate.

So, I guess that line of discussion is over, no? 

Yes, we all learned that Meredith was legally in her right to commit genocide against countless men, women, and children for something they had nothing to do with.

And contrary to almost all the established game-lore regarding the heirachies of the circle, templars, rite of anullment, and chantry published to this point.  DG has the right to make such a change, but make no mistake, he has changed the lore to establish this.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually they are if you accept that the act of tranquility robs the person of their soul (which is canon) and apparent freewill (which it seems to during the game).  They fit a very important definition of slave.

In DAO during the Broken Circle you run into a tranquil who states clearly he prefers to remain where he is, and would you please keep your voice down not to attract the demons, because he'd prefer to stay alive, thankyouverymuch. As well that he'd attempted to find way out of the current mess, earlier.

All rather decisive instances of free will, imo.

edit: Also, if i'm not mistaken tranquility doesn't "rob person from their soul" but instead severs the connection with the Fade that otherwise occurs naturally? For humans/elves anyway, no clue about dwarves.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 avril 2011 - 05:00 .

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

In DAO during the Broken Circle you run into a tranquil who states clearly he prefers to remain where he is, and would you please keep your voice down not to attract the demons, because he'd prefer to stay alive, thankyouverymuch. As well that he'd attempted to find way out of the current mess, earlier.

That was Owain, he decided to start cleaning in the midst of an abomination outbreak.

tmp7704 wrote...

All rather decisive instances of free will, imo.

So was Karl begging to be killed instead of living the rest of his life as a templar puppet.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually they are if you accept that the act of tranquility robs the person of their soul (which is canon) and apparent freewill (which it seems to during the game).  They fit a very important definition of slave.

In DAO during the Broken Circle you run into a tranquil who states clearly he prefers to remain where he is, and would you please keep your voice down not to attract the demons, because he'd prefer to stay alive, thankyouverymuch. As well that he'd attempted to find way out of the current mess, earlier.

You are talking about Orwain who volunteered to be tranquil and even then his actions make his freewill questionable given that he always seems to follow preset patterns and essentially falls apart (does nothing) when his routine is impossible.

Orwain is talking as a tranquil with no access to emotions.  Karl is very temporilily untranquiled and can talk about tranquility from a briefly untranquil state.  Karl's testimony then is far more useful and far more compelling (and damning).

All rather decisive instances of free will, imo.

edit: Also, if i'm not mistaken tranquility doesn't "rob person from their soul" but instead severs the connection with the Fade that otherwise occurs naturally? For humans/elves anyway, no clue about dwarves.

Actually we learn pretty explicitly from the Dalish that making a person tranquil means quite literally killing their soul in the fade.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Karl is the best possible evidence that I can show, that the so called "freedom" that tranquil have is nothing but a bitter and cruel joke and they have no true free will.  Consider that tranquil Karl was willing to do anything the templars told him, but when he became untranquiled, he begged to be killed lest he once again became a templar puppet that could literally not think of the emotional context of his actions.

Karl is the best and truest picture of what its like to be tranquil and it does indeed seem to mean slavery and forced lack of effective free will.

You could probably look at it from quite a different angle -- Karl made tranquil followed orders of the templars in circumstances where there was no logical reasons not to, that he'd see. When his emotions are restored, he lets these emotions drive his entire thought process and focuses on how horrible it feels to him to do what the templars tell him. When/while he has actual emotions to speak of, that is.

Emotionless Karl is completely different person who reasons in completely different way. One is purely logical, the other is very emotional. It doesn't mean the former must be lacking free will, though.

[Pzykozis]

IanPolaris wrote...

And contrary to almost all the established game-lore regarding the heirachies of the circle, templars, rite of anullment, and chantry published to this point.  DG has the right to make such a change, but make no mistake, he has changed the lore to establish this.

-Polaris

I can see where both of you are coming from... kind of, Gaider isn't wrong then again I don't really feel comfortable judging whether a creator of something is wrong about the thing he himself created... but essentially it boils down to this;

The Chantry supercedes the Templar organisation, but as far as could be seen to the templars there was no chantry anymore in Kirkwall, thereby giving Meredith control of the situation until she is able to establish communication with the chantry again. Perhaps that is an assumption on my part but.. that's how Gaider seems to have pushed the topic and truthfully makes complete logical sense, if Meredith was hamstrung by chain of command in this situation in which it would take perhaps a month to establish communication she'd be completely ineffectual in this event.

It's not really a retcon, because none of the codex entries cover this situation, they only cover the heirarchies whilst in status quo. Or calls for annulment whilst the Chantry is still clearly around.

[highcastle]

IanPolaris wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually they are if you accept that the act of tranquility robs the person of their soul (which is canon) and apparent freewill (which it seems to during the game).  They fit a very important definition of slave.

In DAO during the Broken Circle you run into a tranquil who states clearly he prefers to remain where he is, and would you please keep your voice down not to attract the demons, because he'd prefer to stay alive, thankyouverymuch. As well that he'd attempted to find way out of the current mess, earlier.

You are talking about Orwain who volunteered to be tranquil and even then his actions make his freewill questionable given that he always seems to follow preset patterns and essentially falls apart (does nothing) when his routine is impossible.

Orwain is talking as a tranquil with no access to emotions.  Karl is very temporilily untranquiled and can talk about tranquility from a briefly untranquil state.  Karl's testimony then is far more useful and far more compelling (and damning).

All rather decisive instances of free will, imo.

edit: Also, if i'm not mistaken tranquility doesn't "rob person from their soul" but instead severs the connection with the Fade that otherwise occurs naturally? For humans/elves anyway, no clue about dwarves.

Actually we learn pretty explicitly from the Dalish that making a person tranquil means quite literally killing their soul in the fade.

-Polaris

I just wanted to say I agree completely. I remember playing the mage origin first, and I was horrified by the concept of the tranquil. Hearing Karl talk about it in DA2 just cemented my initial reaction, and then hearing what would make Feynrield tranquil by the Keeper...I really don't know how there can be any defense of this practice.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So, what have we learned while I was sleeping?

1.  Mages aren't slaves.
2.  Tranquil mages aren't slaves.
3.  Meredith did indeed have the authority to invoke the Rite of Anullment.
4.  Codex entries aren't always completely accurate.

So, I guess that line of discussion is over, no? 

Yes, we all learned that Meredith was legally in her right to commit genocide against countless men, women, and children for something they had nothing to do with.

If you look back on my many posts on this subject, you'll find that I never said she was correct for trying to use the Rite of Anullment in that situation.  In fact, I've specifically said that it was wrong of her to do that, given the circumstances, and that I actually fought with the mages for this reason.

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So, what have we learned while I was sleeping?

1.  Mages aren't slaves.

But they are clearly imprisoned and unjustly imprisoned, but yes not slaves.

You think it's unjust.  That's opinion.  Given what we saw going on in Kirkwall, I'm not so sure it's unjust.  I Imprisoned, yes.

2.  Tranquil mages aren't slaves.

Actually they are if you accept that the act of tranquility robs the person of their soul (which is canon) and apparent freewill (which it seems to during the game).  They fit a very important definition of slave.

I read the DG post where he specifically stated Tranquil are free to leave the Circle if they wish.  They may fit some definition of slavery, but then, so does Orsanna (not sure of the name, the elf you meet and can hire for your estate?).  They may not want to leave, but they can.

3.  Meredith did indeed have the authority to invoke the Rite of Anullment.

I still am rubbed the wrong way on this because this sudden "WoG" seems utterly contrary to all the pre-existing game lore and verisimilitude of the game, but that is the "official" word of DG.

As he said, and as I postulated earlier, it doesn't actually contradict anything.  The only entry is the one saying the Grand Cleric has that authority - as I mentioned, and as DG confirmed, we know nothing of what happens if the Chantry hierarchy is wiped out.  It seems reasonable to me, but I can understand if you don't like how it works out.

4.  Codex entries aren't always completely accurate.

So, I guess that line of discussion is over, no? 

Hardly.

-Polaris

How?  I can see a discussion about whether the Circles are the best way to do things, including whether the mages are imprisoned unjustly, but the debate over whether they are slaves, and the one over whether Meredith had the authority to call for the Rite seem dead.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

You are talking about Orwain who volunteered to be tranquil and even then his actions make his freewill questionable given that he always seems to follow preset patterns and essentially falls apart (does nothing) when his routine is impossible.

Excuse me, perhaps i'm reading it wrong... but are you questioning if choosing to follow patterns can be treated as act of free will equal to choosing not to follow patterns?

Actually we learn pretty explicitly from the Dalish that making a person tranquil means quite literally killing their soul in the fade.

And what exactly is that alleged "soul in the Fade"?

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 avril 2011 - 05:20 .

[Wulfram]

Greagoir was in a comparably dangerous situation and was unwilling to act without authorization from Denerim.

Val Royeaux isn't all that much further than Denerim, and the trip would almost certainly be easier than going through Fereldan's civil war.

[Ziggeh]

TJPags wrote...

How?  I can see a discussion about whether the Circles are the best way to do things, including whether the mages are imprisoned unjustly, but the debate over whether they are slaves, and the one over whether Meredith had the authority to call for the Rite seem dead.

Definition of free will and like, whether we feel anders was justified?

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

Greagoir was in a comparably dangerous situation and was unwilling to act without authorization from Denerim.

Val Royeaux isn't all that much further than Denerim, and the trip would almost certainly be easier than going through Fereldan's civil war.

Greagoir was close friend to First Enchanter, which would unsurprisingly make him more reluctant to decide the Circle under his supervision had to be wiped out (as it'd mean deciding also to kill his close friend)  Meredith had no such concerns.

there's of course also the game reason for Greagoir's inactivity -- if he's just decided to wipe the Circle out, there would be no spotlight for the player and no opportunity to swoop in and save the day. And so he's bound to wait as long as it takes the player to show up and decide what to do.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You are talking about Orwain who volunteered to be tranquil and even then his actions make his freewill questionable given that he always seems to follow preset patterns and essentially falls apart (does nothing) when his routine is impossible.

Excuse me, perhaps i'm reading it wrong... but are you questioning if choosing to follow patterns can be treated as act of free will equal to choosing not to follow patterns?

Orwain doesn't seem to show true self-volition is my point.  That is a point futher confirmed by the codex entries on tranquil.  Basically the game seems to show that without emotions, the impetous to make freewilled decisions is lacking.  In fact tranquil are called by the codex, walking, talking furniture.  I don't mind in the case of Orwain because he CHOSE that before he was tranquil.  Karl did not.

Actually we learn pretty explicitly from the Dalish that making a person tranquil means quite literally killing their soul in the fade.

And what exactly is that alleged "soul in the Fade"?

Feynriel.  Merethial tells you quite explicitity what it takes to make a person tranquil and how in his case it needed to be your tool of last resort to protect others lest the boy become and abomination.  It explicitly calls for killing his soul in the fade.

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You are talking about Orwain who volunteered to be tranquil and even then his actions make his freewill questionable given that he always seems to follow preset patterns and essentially falls apart (does nothing) when his routine is impossible.

Excuse me, perhaps i'm reading it wrong... but are you questioning if choosing to follow patterns can be treated as act of free will equal to choosing not to follow patterns?

They have a will, that while technically free, is largely predictable. I think this is like the slave thing. The fact that they have free will doesn't stop it being abhorant. The will that they had previously has been lost, whether it's been replaced or not.

tmp7704 wrote...
And what exactly is that alleged "soul in the Fade"?

And do dwarves have them?

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

I read the DG post where he specifically stated Tranquil are free to leave the Circle if they wish.  They may fit some definition of slavery, but then, so does Orsanna (not sure of the name, the elf you meet and can hire for your estate?).  They may not want to leave, but they can.

DG never answered and never adequately addressed my counterpoint which is this (and the English Philosophy John Locke would agree with me on this):

If you take away the ability for a person to have a desire to make that wish, then saying they can leave if they wish is totally meaningless and thus the Tranquil are simply chained in another way, but they are chained.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Greagoir was in a comparably dangerous situation and was unwilling to act without authorization from Denerim.

Val Royeaux isn't all that much further than Denerim, and the trip would almost certainly be easier than going through Fereldan's civil war.

Greagoir was close friend to First Enchanter, which would unsurprisingly make him more reluctant to decide the Circle under his supervision had to be wiped out (as it'd mean deciding also to kill his close friend)  Meredith had no such concerns.

there's of course also the game reason for Greagoir's inactivity -- if he's just decided to wipe the Circle out, there would be no spotlight for the player and no opportunity to swoop in and save the day. And so he's bound to wait as long as it takes the player to show up and decide what to do.

Friend of Irving or not, Gregoire was ready and willing to annul Fereldan's circle and even Wynne said from his perspective such an action would be totally justified.  He lacked the troops and legal authorization to do so (and whatever DG says about the legality it's a fuzzy line.  Meridith SHOULD have quarantined the circle and asked the Divine for the Rite).  The Grey Warden at his (or her) own risk and with dire warnings by the KC choose to solve the issue personally.  Grey Wardens have the legal flexibility to do that in time of blight.

-Polaris

[Pzykozis]

Wulfram wrote...

Greagoir was in a comparably dangerous situation and was unwilling to act without authorization from Denerim.

Val Royeaux isn't all that much further than Denerim, and the trip would almost certainly be easier than going through Fereldan's civil war.

Authorisation from Denerim which isn't that far away from the tower, and is also in indirect control of the Templars of that region, Kirkwalls chantry just bit the dust so Meredith has no indirect superior in the region thereby giving her temporary control. Should she have sought authorisation? Perhaps, did she have to? No.

Bearing in mind it seems like she wanted to annul the mages ages ago I'm suprised it took so long.

Unless people are suggesting that Meredith as the highest ranking Templar / Chantry member in the area do nothing until someone sends word from Orlais, because that would offend my sense of logic.

It wasn't illegal but it wasn't the right thing to do (in my opinion).

Modifié par Pzykozis, 03 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[Wulfram]

tmp7704 wrote...

Greagoir was close friend to First Enchanter, which would unsurprisingly make him more reluctant to decide the Circle under his supervision had to be wiped out (as it'd mean deciding also to kill his close friend)  Meredith had no such concerns.

Greagoir doesn't appear in any doubt as to the decision.  He's clear that the tower is lost.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Orwain doesn't seem to show true self-volition is my point.

And i really don't see where you take that from -- Orwain decides on his own to seek the way out of demon infested Circle. When that turns out impossible he decides to go back to place he considers safe. In regular situations he also chooses how he goes about his days and activities.

Basically the game seems to show that without emotions, the impetous to make freewilled decisions is lacking. 

I disagree; it seems to me the game shows that without emotions people make decisions without these emotion playing the role in the decision process. Which is to be expected.

Operating only using the logic doesn't impair free will -- as there's many concepts of entire species who don't let themselves to be driven by their emotions, both in fantasy and sf. I don't really recall arguments how that approach makes these species lack free will.

Feynriel.  Merethial tells you quite explicitity what it takes to make a person tranquil and how in his case it needed to be your tool of last resort to protect others lest the boy become and abomination.  It explicitly calls for killing his soul in the fade.

Yes, i know. My question was, what exactly is that "soul in the Fade" that severing the connection supposedly kills. It is something the elves apparently believe in, but do we know anything more than that about it?