1927 ответов в этой теме

[Kijin]

Rifneno wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Elthina was not angry that Orsino was speaking out - she was angry that he was being unnecessarily antagonistic. She was trying to calm tensions, but Orsino was only making the situation worse. She also condemned Meredith as well. At the beginning of Act 3, when Orsino and Meredith have that confrontation in public, Elthina condemns both individuals. Elthina could have ran away - the Divine gave Elthina permission to leave, but Elthina refused, as she felt that her duty to the Maker compelled her to stay. Regardless of whether you side with the Templars or the Mages, you cannot deny that innocent people suffered and died. Not all mages were crazy abominations, and not all Templars were fantaics whose sole interest was killing mages. Both of these groups suffered greatly as a result of the combined insanity of Orsino and Meredith. Not to mention the countless number of innocent Kirkwall citizens that died in the crossfire at the end of the game.

Unnecessarily?  Exactly how much murdering, raping, and soul stealing do the templars need to do before the First Enchanter is allowed to say "this sucks" in public?

Sure, there are templars that mean well.  But I'm sure every evil empire had soldiers that were well meaning.  It doesn't mean they don't need to be fought.

He was inciting a public revolt - of course Elthina was telling him to stop it. Yes the mages were being oppressed, but this does not mean that most of the Templars supported the oppression. Cullen was not following Meredith because he hated and feared mages - he did so because he was following orders. Meredith is to blame for the oppression - and she should have payed the price. 

The Circle system works throughout Thedas. One of the best examples would be the Ferelden circle; the First Enchanter Irving and Knight-Commander Greagoir get along just fine. Some tensions exist, but the mages are not horribly oppressed in Ferelden.

Elthina is not to blame for the oppression in Kirkwall - she was trying to fix the problem, but both Meredith and Orsino were too aggressive for their own good. Neither side wanted to compromise.

[Bigdoser]

Rifneno wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Elthina was not angry that Orsino was speaking out - she was angry that he was being unnecessarily antagonistic. She was trying to calm tensions, but Orsino was only making the situation worse. She also condemned Meredith as well. At the beginning of Act 3, when Orsino and Meredith have that confrontation in public, Elthina condemns both individuals. Elthina could have ran away - the Divine gave Elthina permission to leave, but Elthina refused, as she felt that her duty to the Maker compelled her to stay. Regardless of whether you side with the Templars or the Mages, you cannot deny that innocent people suffered and died. Not all mages were crazy abominations, and not all Templars were fantaics whose sole interest was killing mages. Both of these groups suffered greatly as a result of the combined insanity of Orsino and Meredith. Not to mention the countless number of innocent Kirkwall citizens that died in the crossfire at the end of the game.

Unnecessarily?  Exactly how much murdering, raping, and soul stealing do the templars need to do before the First Enchanter is allowed to say "this sucks" in public?

Sure, there are templars that mean well.  But I'm sure every evil empire had soldiers that were well meaning.  It doesn't mean they don't need to be fought.

When I talked to alian that a templar comes into his room and rapes him and threatens him that he will make him tranquil if he talks gives the mages perfect reason to rebel. The very fact that they do nothing about this annoys me more the templars employ people who are muderers and rapiest do not deserve to watch over delicate people like mages. Cause unlike normal people when mages are backed into a corner they have the ability to blow your head off. Oh yeah I agree with the person above.

[Anarcala]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Anarcala wrote...
He cannot be held personally responsible for people who sucumb to their own terrors. 

When he thinks he is qualified to make such a choice for all them, then he is responsable and he should man up to it.

We know he does have a plan.  It's laid out in his manifesto...which we unfortuinately never get to see. Part of his plan was making sure there were people around to take over when he died.  I believe there's a part of the game that indicates Anders isn't the only member of his 'underground' rebellion.

That was in Act 2, before he becomes paranoid and loses control in Act 3. And I doubt it has anything valuable in it except common rethoric. The  underground resistance movement in Act 2 was dismantled as Meredith tightened her grip.

You can't be held responsible for the choices of people not under your own command.  The decision Anders made was to remove compromise, not directly free all mages.  Sure, that was his hope - and after hundred of years of oppression you can see why.  But that doesn't mean they're 'his people'.  He makes that quite clear with the Mage in Ser Alrik's quest.

As for the underground movement...yes, she tightened her grip.  Don't make me quote Star Wars, but the more you do this, the more people fight you.  That fighting is just forced deeper underground, with people having to make even more difficult decisions.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The mages don't want to be under the heel of the Chantry and the templars anymore. Wynne made this clear in Amaranthine. A large portion of the mages wanted freedom, and Wynne resisted because she thought that it would lead to genocide across the continent. However, Kirkwall shows the mages that the "templars can be defied." It's the reason why every Circle in Thedas rebelled from Chantry and templar rule.

I don't see how the representatives Wynne met with speak for every single mage in Thedas.
Especially when the likes of Uldred and Orsino prove that many senior circle mages are in fact off their damn rockers.

Two Senior Enchanters don't constitute the majority of mages. The fact that Wynne expressed that more mages are siding with the Libertarians and are likely to break free from the Chantry, though, is another matter.

If Wynne expressed in Amaranthine that there was a significant portion of the mages wanting freedom from the Chantry that she needed extra help to sway the vote in her favor, and since the mages of all the Circles ended up breaking free from Chantry and templar control, I don't see how you're contesting that the majority of the Circle mages didn't want to be free.

The Angry One wrote...

And how did Kirkwall show that Templars can be defied?

It's exactly what Varric says at the end of DA2.

The Angry One wrote...

An abomination kills innocents, most of the circle is killed, the First Enchanter is outed as a blood mage and turns into a monster and Meredith is ousted with the help of Templars who turn against her.

And yet Hawke becomes a hero to the mages, and his name is a rallying cry. If you're trying to dispute what's in the storyline, I'm afraid I didn't create the sequel. You'll have to take it up with the devs.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Anarcala wrote...
You can't be held responsible for the choices of people not under your own command. 

If they are not under his own command and are not "his people", then on what basis is he deciding their fate?

As for the underground movement...yes, she tightened her grip.  Don't make me quote Star Wars, but the more you do this, the more people fight you.  That fighting is just forced deeper underground, with people having to make even more difficult decisions.

Exactly, but instead of Anders mobalizing the common people who we know disliked Meredith and sympthasized with mages, he decides to make all of them enemies by striking at their Chantry.

Meredith was gettign weaker by the minute and could have been ousted without resorting to this foolishness of turning everyone against mages. But he is paranoid, and can't see allies, only enemies.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't take that thinking seriously, because I don't recall the mages in the Chasind tribes, the nation of Rivain, or the Dalish clans enslaving everyone. I remember that even in the morally bankrupt town of Haven, there were mages and non-mages living together, with a non-mage as their leader.

Again you're comparing tribes and villages to whole societies.
And I remind you that among the Dalish, mages are the leaders.

Again, I remind you that you make an inaccurate generalization about free mages that lore disproves. Free mages =/= Imperium. Free mages don't mean everyone else loses their rights.

And I remind you that the Dalish don't force non-mages into slavery or servitude.

[Rifneno]

Oneiropolos wrote...

I've debated this topic a lot. No. I don't think Anders was justified in blowing up the Chantry. For everyone who wants to go "Those in the chantry weren't innocent'... what about all the debris from the explosion we saw all over the city? Guess no children or innocents were hit by the falling, flaming rocks, right?

Do you have any idea how many innocent civilians die in every war?  Are you saying during WWII we shouldn't have dropped bombs on Germany because they'd also kill some civilians?

(Note:  I'm not going to WWII for the Godwin's Law analogy, I'm going there because it's the last war we've had that no sane mind can possibly say wasn't justified.)

And saying Elthina deserved to die just because she didn't do what Anders wanted and he admitted his only reason for doing it was to -destroy compromise- is rather heartless.

I'm not saying she deserved to die because she didn't do what Anders wanted, I'm saying she deserved to die because she deserved to die.  She was the most powerful figure in the city.  The Chantry rules the templars, and she is the highest ranking member of the Chantry in the country.  She sat back and allowed Meredith's crimes, blatant and obvious.  You couldn't go 20 steps in the Gallows without tripping over a mage that was tranquilled without reason.  Many of the templars are clear that they have no wish to bring mages in alive.  Even the male mages are lucky if they're not raped!  Elthina did nothing!  Even if I believed the "but if she tried to do anything, Meredith and her templars would rebel" theory, which I don't, she could have sent word to The Divine and had an army at her back when she told Meredith that she's no longer required.  The Divine was already considering sending an army there because of the mages on the edge of revolt.  She knows there's trouble brewing in Kirkwall, but apparently Elthina didn't feel it necessary to inform her that the reason of it was Meredith's abuse of power.  But Elthina isn't part of the problem, she's a neutral party.  You'll have to excuse me if I don't swallow that.

[Kijin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Exactly, but instead of Anders mobalizing the common people who we know disliked Meredith and sympthasized with mages, he decides to make all of them enemies by striking at their Chantry.

Meredith was gettign weaker by the minute and could have been ousted without resorting to this foolishness of turning everyone against mages. But he is paranoid, and can't see allies, only enemies.

I completely agree. If you side with the Templars at the end of DA2, Cullen will eventually turn on Meredith. Meredith might be completely unreasonable but Cullen and the others are not. The situation could have been solved peacefully, but by killing the Grand Cleric Elthina, Anders condemned the Circle Mages to death. The Circle Mages could not have won the battle on their own, and Anders knew it. 

[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If they are not under his own command and are not "his people", then on what basis is he deciding their fate?

Self-righteousness.

[Pzykozis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I never said either of them had a plan. But neither forced the issue yet and if they did, they would be just as unjustified.

Meredith was losing more and more power and could have been ousted if Anders bothered to think. But like any paranoid man (see codex) he saw only enemies and dismissed potential allies. Allies that mages end up killing because of their idiocy. 

Indeed the point was that Anders plan was simply to end the cycle which the other two seemed to only serve. He forced change for good or ill because the current status quo (if it could even be called that) wasn't working.

I do agree to a large part about the fact he should have tried to capitalise on allies, likewise when it comes to Orsino and just how much he should have been trying to get Elthina to do something. But, I don't think Anders plan was ever to really just get rid of Meredith which is effectively all he could have done with potential allies (unless there's something I've missed), he wanted freedom for mages, that wasn't going to happen just by getting rid of Meredith even if they had done Cullen is in charge and he hates mages, even if he is slightly more laid back in DA2.

Perhaps it's unjustified to force this freedom... I'd say not, but mileage would vary, change never happens peacefully this was I believe said by the blood mage in the tower you could allow to try and escape, look at the way andraste marched on tevinter that wasn't exactly age of aquarius.

Edit: Anders doesn't decide the mages fate, Meredith does, Anders should have been the one punished in that event it's quite clear that he's an apostate / abomination and not affiliated with the Kirkwall Circle at all. It's Meredith who proceeds to back the mages of Kirkwall into the corner. Of course he's not exactly blameless in that event but Meredith's the 'people will want blood!' Excuse is absurd she's supposed to protect mages as much as police them not punish an unrelated group of people for someone else's crime.

Сообщение изменено: Pzykozis, 02 Апрель 2011 - 07:03 .

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Two Senior Enchanters don't constitute the majority of mages. The fact that Wynne expressed that more mages are siding with the Libertarians and are likely to break free from the Chantry, though, is another matter.

I never said it did. What I said is that mage leadership isn't exactly stable to begin with.

If Wynne expressed in Amaranthine that there was a significant portion of the mages wanting freedom from the Chantry that she needed extra help to sway the vote in her favor, and since the mages of all the Circles ended up breaking free from Chantry and templar control, I don't see how you're contesting that the majority of the Circle mages didn't want to be free.

I'm contesting that because it's not clear that it's the mages themselves, or their leaders, and libertarians don't make up the entirety of mages to begin with.

It's exactly what Varric says at the end of DA2.

Varric saying it doesn't make it true.

And yet Hawke becomes a hero to the mages, and his name is a rallying cry. If you're trying to dispute what's in the storyline, I'm afraid I didn't create the sequel. You'll have to take it up with the devs.

So what? What if Hawke sides with the Templars?
Hawke being a hero figure changes nothing about the circle itself, which is all but wiped out and it's leader exposed as a liar and a criminal.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't take that thinking seriously, because I don't recall the mages in the Chasind tribes, the nation of Rivain, or the Dalish clans enslaving everyone. I remember that even in the morally bankrupt town of Haven, there were mages and non-mages living together, with a non-mage as their leader.

Again you're comparing tribes and villages to whole societies.
And I remind you that among the Dalish, mages are the leaders.

Again, I remind you that you make an inaccurate generalization about free mages that lore disproves. Free mages =/= Imperium. Free mages don't mean everyone else loses their rights.

And I remind you that the Dalish don't force non-mages into slavery or servitude.

The Dalish are small, nomadic tribes. You can't use them as proof that a mageocracy wouldn't oppress non-mages.
The fact is the only large, established society with mages at the top is Tevinter.

By the way, Tevinter supports mage rebellions elsewhere in Thedas and has probably thrown funds behind Anders' underground and the general mage revolt. Think about that.

[Curlain]

I think the mistake is think that Anders is operating rationally at all. I don't think Anders really exists in DA2, when he and Justice joined they merged and corrupted each other and what came out is the abomination Vengeance (an unusual one but I think one nonetheless). He says himself they are one, and he has on idea where Justice/Vengeance ends and he begins, so I think just like any spirit, he is largely consumed by the idea of vengeance, targeted through Anders personal experience at the templars in specifics and the Chantry structure in general. It was always inventible that he would make a large attack against them, Hawke's presence just restrained him for a time.

[upsettingshorts]

Curlain wrote...

I think the mistake is think that Anders is operating rationally at all. I don't think Anders really exists in DA2, when he and Justice joined they merged and corrupted each other and what came out is the abomination Vengeance (an unusual one but I think one nonetheless).

Yep, this.

Anders and Justice are gone, destroyed by each other.

Сообщение изменено: Upsettingshorts, 02 Апрель 2011 - 07:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pzykozis wrote...
I do agree to a large part about the fact he should have tried to capitalise on allies, likewise when it comes to Orsino and just how much he should have been trying to get Elthina to do something. But, I don't think Anders plan was ever to really just get rid of Meredith which is effectively all he could have done with potential allies (unless there's something I've missed), he wanted freedom for mages, that wasn't going to happen just by getting rid of Meredith even if they had done Cullen is in charge and he hates mages, even if he is slightly more laid back in DA2.

I think an opposition front against MEredith could have been used as the foundation for gradual change.

We know from Culen's letter that the common people always side with Templars against mages, but for the first time, people in Kikwall were actually sympathizing with mages. I think that's huge, could have been capitalized and could be used as the basis for reform.

For probably the first time too, we have Templars and mages collaborating to oust a Templar leader (too bad the idiot Grace had to ruin it). This is also very huge and could be used as the basis of reform.

Add to that the nobility that disliked Meredith because they see her grabing power. And the guards that don't like Meredith encroaching on them. And skepitcal Templars like Cullen, who is a hardcore Templar.

If all of these factions were mobalized, and I think they could have, this unprecedented event could have been the foundation for change and reform. Would it have freed mages instantly everywhere in the world? No. But having realistic objectives and patience is a sign of maturity. 

That is much better in both the short and long terms, than what Anders did imo.

Сообщение изменено: KnightofPhoenix, 02 Апрель 2011 - 07:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pzykozis wrote...
Edit: Anders doesn't decide the mages fate, Meredith does, Anders should have been the one punished in that event it's quite clear that he's an apostate / abomination and not affiliated with the Kirkwall Circle at all. It's Meredith who proceeds to back the mages of Kirkwall into the corner. Of course he's not exactly blameless in that event but Meredith's the 'people will want blood!' Excuse is absurd she's supposed to protect mages as much as police them not punish an unrelated group of people for someone else's crime.

He says he wanted to remove the chance of compromise. He knew exactly what he was doing and war is what he wanted. Of course Meredith did exactly what Anders wanted her to do, and she is just as stupid.

Сообщение изменено: KnightofPhoenix, 02 Апрель 2011 - 07:06 .

[The Angry One]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Curlain wrote...

I think the mistake is think that Anders is operating rationally at all. I don't think Anders really exists in DA2, when he and Justice joined they merged and corrupted each other and what came out is the abomination Vengeance (an unusual one but I think one nonetheless).

Yep, this.

Anders and Justice are gone, destroyed by each other.

Correct to an extent but I think people forget how Justice really was. He was always unilateral and uncompromising.
I see nothing Anders does in DA2 that Justice wouldn't do in Awakening except for perhaps being willing to kill a innocent mage and even then Justice in Awakening gets extremely upset if called a demon.

[Rifneno]

Kijin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Exactly, but instead of Anders mobalizing the common people who we know disliked Meredith and sympthasized with mages, he decides to make all of them enemies by striking at their Chantry.

Meredith was gettign weaker by the minute and could have been ousted without resorting to this foolishness of turning everyone against mages. But he is paranoid, and can't see allies, only enemies.

I completely agree. If you side with the Templars at the end of DA2, Cullen will eventually turn on Meredith. Meredith might be completely unreasonable but Cullen and the others are not. The situation could have been solved peacefully, but by killing the Grand Cleric Elthina, Anders condemned the Circle Mages to death. The Circle Mages could not have won the battle on their own, and Anders knew it. 

Completely wrong.  Cullen pretty much just stands against her because they decided that the fight against Meredith should be everyone against her and her slave statues.  It really made no sense for him to turn on her in the mage-sided ending.  It makes sense in the templar-sided one, but if he doesn't join her there then the mage-sided one gets a significantly more difficult fight.  Aside from him and every other templar turning on her at the end, he's pretty much Meredith lite.  Read his codex, it flat out tells you he was transfered there because Greigor didn't want his psychotic ass around and he rose the ranks fast in Kirkwall because Meredith loved that he was almost as much of a psycho as she is.  Or ask him about the Tranquil Solution papers after getting them and he'll pretty much tell you "I didn't think it was a bad idea, but all those whiny mages kept crying about not wanting their souls stolen."  How about if at the conclusion of the initial quest where you meet him, if you tell him templars have been abusing mages for ages?  He's in disbelief that Hawke could think that and says, and I quote, "they're not people like you and me!"  Oh yeah, Cullen's a real sweetheart.

[upsettingshorts]

The Angry One wrote...

Correct to an extent but I think people forget how Justice really was. He was always unilateral and uncompromising.
I see nothing Anders does in DA2 that Justice wouldn't do in Awakening except for perhaps being willing to kill a innocent mage

Justice is blind and objective.

By inhabiting a mortal with bias and an agenda - even if that agenda is ultimately righteous or even good, and based on the frequency of threads like these it would seem that idea is at least controversial - would corrupt the very idea of justice.

By inhabiting Anders, Justice lost his perspective and the ability to judge the balance of things objectively.

By taking on Justice, Anders lost aspects of his humanity and either accepted this (Friend path) or failed to fight against it (Rival path).

The Angry One wrote...

Justice in Awakening gets extremely upset if called a demon.

In hindsight, given what happens with Anders/Justice over the course of the seven years in Kirkwall - I'm beginning to think the Dalish idea of the spirits of the Fade is correct.  

Сообщение изменено: Upsettingshorts, 02 Апрель 2011 - 07:10 .

[Camenae]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We know from Culen's letter that the common people always side with Templars against mages, but for the first time, people in Kikwall were actually sympathizing with mages. I think that's huge, could have been capitalized and could be used as the basis for reform.

For probably the first time too, we have Templars and mages collaborating to oust a Templar leader (too bad the idiot Grace had to ruin it). This is also very huge and could be used as the basis of reform.

I didn't quote your entire post, but I agree with you.  I remember Cullen saying, it might've been in Act 1, that [paraphrasing] "people used to open their doors and offer aid to Templars, and now they're more apt to slam the doors and spit in our faces" and then goes on to say his bit about the image of the poor apprentice.  So yeah that is huge, public opinion was already swinging in favor of the Mages. 

If Anders had capitalized on that rather than instantly reversing all the good PR...Some say that it was okay for the innocents in the Chantry and killed by the debris to die for the greater good.  But even if I agreed with that, I would still say these innocents didn't HAVE to die.  Because there WAS a better way. 

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Completely wrong.  Cullen pretty much just stands against her because they decided that the fight against Meredith should be everyone against her and her slave statues.  It really made no sense for him to turn on her in the mage-sided ending.  It makes sense in the templar-sided one, but if he doesn't join her there then the mage-sided one gets a significantly more difficult fight.  Aside from him and every other templar turning on her at the end, he's pretty much Meredith lite.  Read his codex, it flat out tells you he was transfered there because Greigor didn't want his psychotic ass around and he rose the ranks fast in Kirkwall because Meredith loved that he was almost as much of a psycho as she is.  Or ask him about the Tranquil Solution papers after getting them and he'll pretty much tell you "I didn't think it was a bad idea, but all those whiny mages kept crying about not wanting their souls stolen."  How about if at the conclusion of the initial quest where you meet him, if you tell him templars have been abusing mages for ages?  He's in disbelief that Hawke could think that and says, and I quote, "they're not people like you and me!"  Oh yeah, Cullen's a real sweetheart.

There's a lot of denial about DA2 Cullen, that he's reformed his ways.  Next to Meredith he does look reasonable but that's because she's insane.  But as you point out, his basic stance towards mages hasn't changed.  And he's still creepily macking on Amell/ Surana.

Сообщение изменено: Addai67, 02 Апрель 2011 - 07:12 .

[Addai]

The question/ problem I have about the ending is that if you side with the mages, the game seems to assume you are taking sides in the larger war. Anders certainly assumes that. Whereas I don't envision my Hawke being involved in a protracted Circle vs. templar war- she just wanted to restore order in Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Two Senior Enchanters don't constitute the majority of mages. The fact that Wynne expressed that more mages are siding with the Libertarians and are likely to break free from the Chantry, though, is another matter.

I never said it did. What I said is that mage leadership isn't exactly stable to begin with.

Based on what, two people?

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Wynne expressed in Amaranthine that there was a significant portion of the mages wanting freedom from the Chantry that she needed extra help to sway the vote in her favor, and since the mages of all the Circles ended up breaking free from Chantry and templar control, I don't see how you're contesting that the majority of the Circle mages didn't want to be free.

I'm contesting that because it's not clear that it's the mages themselves, or their leaders, and libertarians don't make up the entirety of mages to begin with.

I never claimed the Libertarians constituted the majority of the mages, but a sufficient number sided with them during the meeting in Cumberland to make Wynne think they had a real shot at emancipating themselves from the Chantry despite the risk of genocide. And all the Circles inevitably broke free from Chantry control.

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's exactly what Varric says at the end of DA2.

Varric saying it doesn't make it true.

You voicing your opinion about the mage leadership doesn't make it any more true, either, but since Cassandra never contests his words, I see no reason to assume he was lying about it.

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And yet Hawke becomes a hero to the mages, and his name is a rallying cry. If you're trying to dispute what's in the storyline, I'm afraid I didn't create the sequel. You'll have to take it up with the devs.

So what? What if Hawke sides with the Templars?
Hawke being a hero figure changes nothing about the circle itself, which is all but wiped out and it's leader exposed as a liar and a criminal.

Hawke becomes a rallying cry and a hero of the mages, inspiring them to break free from the Chantry. Hawke becomes a villain if he sides with the templars, in the eyes of the mages. The Circles see the brutal oppression and break free for different reasons.

[Kotetsimaru]

My post from another one of these Anders threads.

Myself I can technically see the blowing up the Chantry as the Justice/Vengeance option. I mean they just sat there letting the templars get away with the atrocities they were committing praying that their god would make it all better. You can't just ignore something and hope it goes away, in anders/justice eyes it probably looked like they were actually one of the main causes for the injustices against the mages because they'd let them happen and didn't do a thing about them causing things to escalate to where they were.
By blowing up the Chantry it showed the world that this could no longer be allowed to happen, it will have got the attention of everyone to look and see what happens when you abuse people and think it's ok to let it happen.
With the Grand Cleric removed it also meant there was nobody there to keep allowing those things to happen while just brushing it under the carpet and saying it's not happening.

Of course by the end of the game I also feel Anders is Merediths polar opposite, while she sees blood mages hiding behind every corner Anders sees injustice against mages. He even starts accusing members of your party in party banter.

[Kijin]

Rifneno wrote...

Completely wrong.  Cullen pretty much just stands against her because they decided that the fight against Meredith should be everyone against her and her slave statues.  It really made no sense for him to turn on her in the mage-sided ending.  It makes sense in the templar-sided one, but if he doesn't join her there then the mage-sided one gets a significantly more difficult fight.  Aside from him and every other templar turning on her at the end, he's pretty much Meredith lite.  Read his codex, it flat out tells you he was transfered there because Greigor didn't want his psychotic ass around and he rose the ranks fast in Kirkwall because Meredith loved that he was almost as much of a psycho as she is.  Or ask him about the Tranquil Solution papers after getting them and he'll pretty much tell you "I didn't think it was a bad idea, but all those whiny mages kept crying about not wanting their souls stolen."  How about if at the conclusion of the initial quest where you meet him, if you tell him templars have been abusing mages for ages?  He's in disbelief that Hawke could think that and says, and I quote, "they're not people like you and me!"  Oh yeah, Cullen's a real sweetheart.

It made perfect sense for Cullen to turn against Meredith. Throughout Dragon Age 2, Cullen has shown that he is capable of being reasonable. During the quest when templars were being possessed by demons, at the end of it Hawke frees a templar who was about to be possessed. Meredith would have had the man executed, but Hawke can convince Cullen that he is fine. Cullen is a soldier, so he follows Meredith's orders - but this does not mean he is a complete monster. Cullen does not support the mass genocide of mages like Meredith did and it made perfect sense for him to turn against her. The Lyrium artifact had made her turn insane - she was no longer sane and rational.

Yes, Cullen believes that abominations are a threat, and that the Templars need to be on their guard. What you fail to acknowledge is Cullen's attitude towards mages changes over the course of Dragon Age 2. He starts off aggressively hating mages, and slowly becomes more tolerant. This much is clear. 

Elthina is willing to listen to reason, as was Cullen. Many of the Templars sympathized with the mages - that is why many of the Templars, including Thrask, rebelled against Meredith and joined a blood mage rebellion. 

Orsino and Meredith were completely unreasonable and refused to compromise. They are responsible for the war. The average templar deserves as much blame for the conflict as the average mage - that is, next to nothing.