1927 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Pzykozis wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Greagoir was in a comparably dangerous situation and was unwilling to act without authorization from Denerim.

Val Royeaux isn't all that much further than Denerim, and the trip would almost certainly be easier than going through Fereldan's civil war.

Authorisation from Denerim which isn't that far away from the tower, and is also in indirect control of the Templars of that region, Kirkwalls chantry just bit the dust so Meredith has no indirect superior in the region thereby giving her temporary control. Should she have sought authorisation? Perhaps, did she have to? No.

Honestly given there was a blight all over Fereldan and was in the middle of civil war, Denerim may as well been on the moon.  KC Gregoire even says as much.  He lacked the authority anyway and he admitted and knew it.

Unless people are suggesting that Meredith as the highest ranking Templar / Chantry member in the area do nothing until someone sends word from Orlais, because that would offend my sense of logic.

Whatever DG says about the legality, that IS in fact the correct and logical thing to do.  There was no immediate crisis.  There was no reason (and Cullen even says as much) to believe that none of the circle couldn't be saved or that the circle couldn't be quarantined until the Divine could step in (and she surely would have!)

It's this gross overreach of power (whatever the technical legality) that alienated most of Meridith's Templars from her and caused them to mass mutiny at the very end (instead of killing the Champion which Meridith regadless of ending had every legal right to insist on).

It wasn't illegal but it wasn't the right thing to do (in my opinion).

DG says it was "legal" so it was....in spite of the fact it (seems) to contravene all prior existing game lore.  I would counter that if "legal" it was barely so...essentially a case of fate giving Meridith and inch and her taking a mile....which seems to be her favored mode of operation really.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

Wulfram wrote...

Greagoir doesn't appear in any doubt as to the decision.  He's clear that the tower is lost.

Yes, but at the same time it doesn't prevent him from stalling. It doesn't however mean Meredith in the same situation is also obliged to stall... for that matter Mr.Gaider rather clearly made a point she isn't, if i understand it right.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Greagoir doesn't appear in any doubt as to the decision.  He's clear that the tower is lost.

Yes, but at the same time it doesn't prevent him from stalling. It doesn't however mean Meredith in the same situation is also obliged to stall... for that matter Mr.Gaider rather clearly made a point she isn't, if i understand it right.

He's not stalling; he's stuck and he freely admits this.  He doesn't have the manpower to fight through all those aboinations, his men have taken terrible casualties, and he doesn't have authorization.  He leaps at the chance for the Grey Warden to solve the issue for him but is certain that everyone including his friend Irving is dead or worse.  In time of blight a Grey Warden can cut the legal red tape and the Templars clearly can not (or at least aren't supposed to).

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

He's not stalling; he's stuck and he freely admits this.  He doesn't have the manpower to fight through all those aboinations, his men have taken terrible casualties, and he doesn't have authorization.

But in this case his situation is completely opposite to that of Meredith who does have both manpower and authorization (being the highest ranking in entire state of Kirkwall at that point) As such, don't know if there's any use in bringing him up at all.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Orwain doesn't seem to show true self-volition is my point.

And i really don't see where you take that from -- Orwain decides on his own to seek the way out of demon infested Circle. When that turns out impossible he decides to go back to place he considers safe. In regular situations he also chooses how he goes about his days and activities.

Owain doesn't announce that he's there when he sees the barrier errected. Even Wynne seems surprised that he didn't say anything. I'm not certain he's the best example of a tranquil mage acting logical.

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Basically the game seems to show that without emotions, the impetous to make freewilled decisions is lacking. 

I disagree; it seems to me the game shows that without emotions people make decisions without these emotion playing the role in the decision process. Which is to be expected.

Operating only using the logic doesn't impair free will -- as there's many concepts of entire species who don't let themselves to be driven by their emotions, both in fantasy and sf. I don't really recall arguments how that approach makes these species lack free will.

How is it logical for Owain not to announce his presence so the mages on the other side of the barrer can let him in? It seems that the logical course of action would have been to inform Wynne and the others to let him inside so he doesn't get killed. Instead, he remains silent and heads back to the storeroom.

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Feynriel.  Merethial tells you quite explicitity what it takes to make a person tranquil and how in his case it needed to be your tool of last resort to protect others lest the boy become and abomination.  It explicitly calls for killing his soul in the fade.

Yes, i know. My question was, what exactly is that "soul in the Fade" that severing the connection supposedly kills. It is something the elves apparently believe in, but do we know anything more than that about it?

You'd argue it's speculative?

[Pzykozis]

IanPolaris wrote...

Unless people are suggesting that Meredith as the highest ranking Templar / Chantry member in the area do nothing until someone sends word from Orlais, because that would offend my sense of logic.

Whatever DG says about the legality, that IS in fact the correct and logical thing to do.  There was no immediate crisis.  There was no reason (and Cullen even says as much) to believe that none of the circle couldn't be saved or that the circle couldn't be quarantined until the Divine could step in (and she surely would have!)

It's this gross overreach of power (whatever the technical legality) that alienated most of Meridith's Templars from her and caused them to mass mutiny at the very end (instead of killing the Champion which Meridith regadless of ending had every legal right to insist on).

It wasn't illegal but it wasn't the right thing to do (in my opinion).

DG says it was "legal" so it was....in spite of the fact it (seems) to contravene all prior existing game lore.  I would counter that if "legal" it was barely so...essentially a case of fate giving Meridith and inch and her taking a mile....which seems to be her favored mode of operation really.

-Polaris

I still don't see how it contravenes anything, even the only example I can see having any weight (this KC Gregoir topic) has the Chantry still in power regardless of the state of affairs in the country though at this point (or atleast the way it seems to go down the tower is the first of the treaties to be sorted) the horde hasn't pressed that far and the civil war has nothing to do with Templars and Chantry, If you took the Chantry out of the equation and Gregoir had the manpower, I doubt he would have not gone ahead (barring any stalling he /may/ have been doing)

And I worded myself poorly, it wasn't so much Meredith sitting on her hands that would offend my logic, though to be fair it would to a certain extent this was an attack by a mage after all, it's the idea that the Chantry would hamstring the Templars so much so that if they're the sole remaining arm in the region (i.e. Chantry had somehow been destroyed) they still can't do anything, because heirarchy dictates, thats.. well, absurd, and would offend my logic.

[Plaintiff]

Wugger wrote...

Ander's act was evil. He murdered a good woman and god knows how many innocents just practising their religion. He forced a city into a war which could have been averted, and therefore led to the deaths of countless others. Worst still, he didn't seem to regret his murdering at all, seriously no character has ever made me more angry in any game I've played, hats off to Bioware on that one.

I'm a little shocked at how so many people aren't bothered by what is a blatant act of terroism, though I guess it is a game.

That's all really open to interpretation. I don't consider Elthina "good" at all. Her refusal to deal with Meredith makes her jsut as bad as her, in my opinion, and I spent most of the time I was talking to her wishing I could stab her in the neck. Preferably while that self-righteous ass, Sebastian, was watching.

The only way war could've been averted was by allowing the oppression of mages to continue unabated. You see as the game progresses that they're being treated worse and worse. There is no compromise. Elthina isn't helping anybody by stalling on the issue. Every time Meredith and Orsino have a public dispute, she essentially tells them to calm down and go home, and things get steadily worse for the mages until the next major blowup.

The mages do not have the ability to argue for themselves. They can't force the Chantry to listen because it has all the power, and it never will listen because a major tenant of the faith is that magic is responsible for pretty much all the evil that ever happened anywhere. Mages will never be free while the Chantry rules, it's that simple.

You'd be surprised how easy "terrorism" is to justify when you look at it from the view of the one perpetrating the act. In fact, i view it as Anders does, a regrettable, but necessary act. I dunno how your relationship with Anders played out in the game, but going down the Friendship path, he clearly agonized over his decision, it wasn't easy for him at all. He submits himself to Hawke for judgement, explicitly stating that he will accept death if that is the punishment Hawke considers fitting. That is not the action of a remorseless psychopath.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Greagoir doesn't appear in any doubt as to the decision.  He's clear that the tower is lost.

Yes, but at the same time it doesn't prevent him from stalling. It doesn't however mean Meredith in the same situation is also obliged to stall... for that matter Mr.Gaider rather clearly made a point she isn't, if i understand it right.

The problem is Meredith's actions in regards to what happens towards the conclusion of Act III. A former Grey Warden attacked the Kirkwall Chantry, so she orders the execution of all the mages in the Kirkwall Circle, and proceeds to leave Anders in the company of Hawke if he sides with her instead of demanding for his execution. She was in her legal right to order the Rite of Annulment, but what she wants is the genocide of all mages in Kirkwall, to the point that she handwaves Anders presence almost entirely.

Is this morally correct to execute all mages and apprentices when they're innocent? Is it right to execute every mage in the Circle for the actions of a man standing right in front of her? There's no urgency to murder call for the Rite like there was in Ferelden, but despite having the culpruit behind the attack on the Chantry right in front of her, she cares more about purging the city-state of the Circle than anything else.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 avril 2011 - 06:00 .

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Feynriel.  Merethial tells you quite explicitity what it takes to make a person tranquil and how in his case it needed to be your tool of last resort to protect others lest the boy become and abomination.  It explicitly calls for killing his soul in the fade.

Yes, i know. My question was, what exactly is that "soul in the Fade" that severing the connection supposedly kills. It is something the elves apparently believe in, but do we know anything more than that about it?

You'd argue it's speculative?

You mean like how my soul would surely go to hell when I die? You're the one doubting Chantry dogma at every turn, why not doubt the dogma of the Dalish?

A definite yes, from me at least. The soul in the fade might just mean that they can't enter it.

[IanPolaris]

The problem with this logic is that Meridith is not hamstrung. She does have the unquestioned authority as Knight Commander to quarantine the circle and wait for word from the divine. The situation as Knight Captain Cullen explains is not that dire. Of the two KC Gregoire would have been more in the right of an annulmen on his own authority at least ethically (if not legally) since he really was realistically cut off from all other superior authority.

Meridith was not. She was given an excuse on a silver platter and never even bothered to consider if she might not need to check with superios who were NOT out of contact (given there was no immediate threat).

If Meridith had no way to contact higher authoriy, I might be willing to let this slide more, but she did. She never bothered to even consider using it.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Owain doesn't announce that he's there when he sees the barrier errected. Even Wynne seems surprised that he didn't say anything. I'm not certain he's the best example of a tranquil mage acting logical.

The logical conclusion would be for whatever reason he didn't spot anyone to announce his presence to. More logical than presume he wasn't following logic... because why wouldn't he?

Yes, i know. My question was, what exactly is that "soul in the Fade" that severing the connection supposedly kills. It is something the elves apparently believe in, but do we know anything more than that about it?

You'd argue it's speculative?

I'd argue without knowing anything more it's difficult to say whether it's something that was confirmed to exist (like spirits/demons) or just an unverified concept, like these of the elven gods and the Maker.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Whatever DG says about the legality, that IS in fact the correct and logical thing to do.  There was no immediate crisis.  There was no reason (and Cullen even says as much) to believe that none of the circle couldn't be saved or that the circle couldn't be quarantined until the Divine could step in (and she surely would have!)

Even if Meredith hadn't invoked the rite of annulment, I can easily see an angry mob burning down the gallows. A mage had just destroyed the Chantry. Aside from the murder of many innocents including the very popular grand cleric, there's huge symbolism there.

Meredith's only other alternative would have been to protect the mages from the people. Even if it's the right thing to do, I can't see Meredith ordering her Templars to cut down angery citizens to keep the mages safe. Especially when Anders may or may not have acted alone - he's part of the mage underground and many mages in the circle were working with them.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You'd argue it's speculative?

You mean like how my soul would surely go to hell when I die? You're the one doubting Chantry dogma at every turn, why not doubt the dogma of the Dalish?

A definite yes, from me at least. The soul in the fade might just mean that they can't enter it.

Did I was there was anything wrong with doubting the Dalish, or are you simply looking to disagree with me when all I'm looking for is clarification on what was said?

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Owain doesn't announce that he's there when he sees the barrier errected. Even Wynne seems surprised that he didn't say anything. I'm not certain he's the best example of a tranquil mage acting logical.

The logical conclusion would be for whatever reason he didn't spot anyone to announce his presence to. More logical than presume he wasn't following logic... because why wouldn't he?

But wouldn't the logical conclusion be to call for help from anyone on the other side of a barrier that can only be errected by a mage?

ddv.rsa wrote...

Even if Meredith hadn't invoked the rite of annulment, I can easily see an angry mob burning down the gallows. A mage had just destroyed the Chantry. Aside from the murder of many innocents including the very popular grand cleric, there's huge symbolism there.

The Gallows that's seperated by a large span of water, the same way the Circle Tower in Ferelden is?

ddv.rsa wrote...

Meredith's only other alternative would have been to protect the mages from the people. Even if it's the right thing to do, I can't see Meredith ordering her Templars to cut down angery citizens to keep the mages safe. Especially when Anders may or may not have acted alone - he's part of the mage underground and many mages in the circle were working with them.

Considering she was more concerned about killing the mages than concerning herself with the actual culpruit who attacked the Chantry - Anders - I don't see why you think her actions are altruistic. Your conclusion is that, in order to prevent templars from killing members of a mob, she ordered the execution of countless men, women, and children instead.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

He's not stalling; he's stuck and he freely admits this.  He doesn't have the manpower to fight through all those aboinations, his men have taken terrible casualties, and he doesn't have authorization.

But in this case his situation is completely opposite to that of Meredith who does have both manpower and authorization (being the highest ranking in entire state of Kirkwall at that point) As such, don't know if there's any use in bringing him up at all.

Meridith' auhorization is very shakey at best.  DG says it was technically legal so I have to do with that (under protest), but he also says it was ethically wrong and says so in no uncertain terms.  The authority she does (apparently) have does not come from being the highest ranking official left in Kirkwall.  Technically YOU (the champion) are as Lord (Lady) Amell and acting Viscount (which is what gives you the right to legally execute Anders).  Her technical authoriy comes from the fact that she is the highest ranking surviving member of the Chantry and given she's not technically clergy and a Rite of Annulment is supposed to be in the hands of the Clergy......well if Meridith did survive, I fully expect Divine Justina would have had some very sharp words with Meridith over where the lines of authority lie at least in private....technical legality or no,.  This is a case where I am sure the Divine would say, "WHAT?  You couldn't have asked me FIRST?!  Really?!"

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The problem is Meredith's actions in regards to what happens towards the conclusion of Act III. A former Grey Warden attacked the Kirkwall Chantry, so she orders the execution of all the mages in the Kirkwall Circle, and proceeds to leave Anders in the company of Hawke if he sides with her instead of demanding for his execution. She was in her legal right to order the Rite of Annulment, but what she wants is the genocide of all mages in Kirkwall, to the point that she handwaves Anders presence almost entirely.

Yes, this part is pretty weak overall. I'm not sure though how much of that is up to the writing (and how apparently the game does its earnest to railroad you to its pre-planned and desired conclusion) and how much is in-game Meredith being plain crazy thanks to influence of the idol and whatnot.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Whatever DG says about the legality, that IS in fact the correct and logical thing to do.  There was no immediate crisis.  There was no reason (and Cullen even says as much) to believe that none of the circle couldn't be saved or that the circle couldn't be quarantined until the Divine could step in (and she surely would have!)

Even if Meredith hadn't invoked the rite of annulment, I can easily see an angry mob burning down the gallows. A mage had just destroyed the Chantry. Aside from the murder of many innocents including the very popular grand cleric, there's huge symbolism there.

Meredith's only other alternative would have been to protect the mages from the people. Even if it's the right thing to do, I can't see Meredith ordering her Templars to cut down angery citizens to keep the mages safe. Especially when Anders may or may not have acted alone - he's part of the mage underground and many mages in the circle were working with them.

Really?  Oh sure Merideth tries to claim this but it's a bald-faced LIE.  Donnic is quite able to use the guard to keep order (Aveline tells you this), if as Champion of Kirkwall (and a very popular figure) you publically try and execute the man responsible (Anders) for this horrible crime, I am certain the mob would be appeased.....enough that the Gallows would be safe enough.  Remember the Gallows are on an island which makes it very hard for any angry mob to storm.

Meredith didn't even bother.  She didn't care about angry mobs.  Look at her when she announces the annulment.  She is almost dancing with glee.  She barely bothers to hide it an if that wasn't clue enough, she cares nothing about what happens to Anders, the undisputed guilty party.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The problem is Meredith's actions in regards to what happens towards the conclusion of Act III. A former Grey Warden attacked the Kirkwall Chantry, so she orders the execution of all the mages in the Kirkwall Circle, and proceeds to leave Anders in the company of Hawke if he sides with her instead of demanding for his execution. She was in her legal right to order the Rite of Annulment, but what she wants is the genocide of all mages in Kirkwall, to the point that she handwaves Anders presence almost entirely.

Yes, this part is pretty weak overall. I'm not sure though how much of that is up to the writing (and how apparently the game does its earnest to railroad you to its pre-planned and desired conclusion) and how much is in-game Meredith being plain crazy thanks to influence of the idol and whatnot.

Or maybe the idol is the excuse to railroad you in a very rushed and unfinished fashion.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

But wouldn't the logical conclusion be to call for help from anyone on the other side of a barrier that can only be errected by a mage?

If he saw anyone there, yes. If he didn't then not really imo -- it'd be logical to instead presume whoever had erected that barrier has since retreated to hide beyond extra safety of the huge door, the one templars open for you when they let you into the infested part of the Tower. And rather than yell for help (and risk attracting attention of demons) it could be more safe to hide like he did.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

But wouldn't the logical conclusion be to call for help from anyone on the other side of a barrier that can only be errected by a mage?

If he saw anyone there, yes. If he didn't then not really imo -- it'd be logical to instead presume whoever had erected that barrier has since retreated to hide beyond extra safety of the huge door, the one templars open for you when they let you into the infested part of the Tower. And rather than yell for help (and risk attracting attention of demons) it could be more safe to hide like he did.

Except he didn't. Failing to escape he went back to work cleaning the stock room.  He never bothers to hide.  It's exactly the sort of behavior I'd expect from a programmed machine.

-Polaris

[Pzykozis]

IanPolaris wrote...

If Meridith had no way to contact higher authoriy, I might be willing to let this slide more, but she did. She never bothered to even consider using it.

-Polaris

She'd have to leave the country to get authorisation, thats a fairly big impediment to contacting a higher authority to which she could then act on. It's not like she can send a quick text message. As the highest ranking member in the region she has the powers of said role therefore she can legally call a right of annulment without word from orlais (after all Gregoir seeks word from Denerim not Orlais).

Aye, it's not ethical at all she's punishing an unrelated group of people, but I don't see how it contravenes / is illegal. Even if I do like to poke small holes in her.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...
Even if Meredith hadn't invoked the rite of annulment, I can easily see an angry mob burning down the gallows. A mage had just destroyed the Chantry. Aside from the murder of many innocents including the very popular grand cleric, there's huge symbolism there.

Meredith's only other alternative would have been to protect the mages from the people. Even if it's the right thing to do, I can't see Meredith ordering her Templars to cut down angery citizens to keep the mages safe. Especially when Anders may or may not have acted alone - he's part of the mage underground and many mages in the circle were working with them.

Meredith could try to alleviate it by publicaly executing Anders.

I am not sure the people would be so angry as to start killing Templars to get to mages. It wouldn't have been easy at all, but I think Meredith could have prevented a general slaughter. Especially if she actually cooperates with the guards and doesn't try to set them aside. 

But I think part of her (or the idol) wanted the annulment before that happened.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

The authority she does (apparently) have does not come from being the highest ranking official left in Kirkwall.  Technically YOU (the champion) are as Lord (Lady) Amell and acting Viscount (which is what gives you the right to legally execute Anders).

The Amells are largely has-beens in Kirkwall and if i understand it right you have no way to act in Viscount's place if you side with the mages or are one yourself (when my Hawke said he'd gladly rule Kirkwall he got shot down pretty fast and that was it)  So i don't really see such Hawke as having any technical authority at all -- he/she is popular as the Champion but that's about it.

[IanPolaris]

Pzykozis wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If Meridith had no way to contact higher authoriy, I might be willing to let this slide more, but she did. She never bothered to even consider using it.

-Polaris

She'd have to leave the country to get authorisation, thats a fairly big impediment to contacting a higher authority to which she could then act on. It's not like she can send a quick text message. As the highest ranking member in the region she has the powers of said role therefore she can legally call a right of annulment without word from orlais (after all Gregoir seeks word from Denerim not Orlais).

Aye, it's not ethical at all she's punishing an unrelated group of people, but I don't see how it contravenes / is illegal. Even if I do like to poke small holes in her.

Wrong.  Gregoire ddn''t have to leave the Fereldan tower to seek authorization from Denerim.  There is no reason Meridith would have to move an inch.

It's called sending a messenger......

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The authority she does (apparently) have does not come from being the highest ranking official left in Kirkwall.  Technically YOU (the champion) are as Lord (Lady) Amell and acting Viscount (which is what gives you the right to legally execute Anders).

The Amells are largely has-beens in Kirkwall and if i understand it right you have no way to act in Viscount's place if you side with the mages or are one yourself (when my Hawke said he'd gladly rule Kirkwall he got shot down pretty fast and that was it)  So i don't really see such Hawke as having any technical authority at all -- he/she is popular as the Champion but that's about it.

You are the Heir to the Amells and thanks to your mother the Viscount does officially recognize that starting in Act II.  That makes you nobility.  When you talk with your fellow nobles at the start of Act III, they to a man look to you to take the effective place of the dead viscount...official title or no especially given they are certain that Meridith is trying to effectively usurp the position for herself!  Varic (and the comments by the nobles bear this out) quite clearly states that you arethe second most powerful person in Kirkwell....right after the Knight Commander herself.  Thus de-facto (if not de-jure) you do have the right of high justice and not even the KC questions this.

-Polaris