1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Meredith could try to alleviate it by publicaly executing Anders.

The her or Sebastian not killing Anders is what I call clumsy writing in order to have player choice. Sebastian needed to survive as he has a part to play in the future (according to Hepler) and Meredith needed to be in the Gallows in order to facilitate the last boss fight.

I hate that part.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Except he didn't. Failing to escape he went back to work cleaning the stock room.  He never bothers to hide.  It's exactly the sort of behavior I'd expect from a programmed machine.

He's hidden in place he considered familiar and safe -- the storeroom. He was right in thas assessment as there's no demons in that place that i can recall?

Once there he indeed went back to work because --lacking emotions-- he couldn't exactly run in panic in circles or otherwise fret over his safety.

I don't think we're supposed to empathize with his thought process, but that's actually side effect of the behaviour being entirely rational, when it's something we rarely do ourselves given how we routinely let our emotions guide us.

[IanPolaris]

Tmp,

Orwain at no points says he tried to hide. He says that he tried to escape couldn't and went back to work in the stockroom because it was familiar. It's exactly the sort of behavior I expect from a walking-talking Ipod. Emotions are far more important for what we consider freewill than you (or DG) seem willing to admit.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Meredith could try to alleviate it by publicaly executing Anders.

The her or Sebastian not killing Anders is what I call clumsy writing in order to have player choice. Sebastian needed to survive as he has a part to play in the future (according to Hepler) and Meredith needed to be in the Gallows in order to facilitate the last boss fight.

I hate that part.

Yea, it would have made more sense if Anders had collaborators within the circle and Meredith found out.
And I would have felt that Anders is less unjustified as he wasn't acting alone.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...
Really?  Oh sure Merideth tries to claim this but it's a bald-faced LIE.  Donnic is quite able to use the guard to keep order (Aveline tells you this), if as Champion of Kirkwall (and a very popular figure) you publically try and execute the man responsible (Anders) for this horrible crime, I am certain the mob would be appeased.....enough that the Gallows would be safe enough.  Remember the Gallows are on an island which makes it very hard for any angry mob to storm.

Meredith didn't even bother.  She didn't care about angry mobs.  Look at her when she announces the annulment.  She is almost dancing with glee.  She barely bothers to hide it an if that wasn't clue enough, she cares nothing about what happens to Anders, the undisputed guilty party.

-Polaris

Personally I don't put much stock in Aveline, much less Donnic. I wasn't impressed by how she handled the qunari situation. Let's not even go to her effectiveness in controlling crime in Kirkwall. The little that she does "accomplish" she owes directly to Hawke, even getting her job. Had I the option I would have given her power to Cullen.

But you make a fair point about the gallows being on an island. Still, that wouldn't stop chaos from erupting all over the city. And how many would believe that Anders acted alone, even if he did? Orsino had created an atmosphere where everyone was just waiting for the mages to make a move.

You also mention in another post the Divine would have disagreed with Meredith's call. Given that she was considering a far more drastic intervention than annulment even before the attack, I think she actually might have given Meredith a medal. But whether or not one thinks the annulment had to happen, it's pretty sick how eager she seems. 

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

You are the Heir to the Amells and thanks to your mother the Viscount does officially recognize that starting in Act II.  That makes you nobility. 

Yes, but my point was there's entire Hightown of nobility in Kirkwall. You being one doesn't make you any more in charge than any other of these nobles.

When you talk with your fellow nobles at the start of Act III, they to a man look to you to take the effective place of the dead viscount...official title or no especially given they are certain that Meridith is trying to effectively usurp the position for herself!

And when you discuss your chances of taking the Viscount title you're told clearly that "you're lot of things Champion but not that high in the pecking order to think of it, yet." Official title is what would make you technically in position of authority, and it's exactly what you lack. Without it, you're just an usurper and wanna-be... ironically enough much like Meredith herself, but she does have some official authority to go with that.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 avril 2011 - 06:35 .

[Paeyne]

Koyasha wrote...

Amusingly, if tranquil are fully capable of reflecting on situations as much as anyone else, they would actually make quite capable rulers, as well as judges/magistrates.  They can study a problem entirely objectively and make a completely unbiased decision by their very nature.

Oh.. I really like this!

The question of the Tranquil is interesting.

I have always subscribed to the idea that losing the attachment to the fade severs the souls connection to the greater whole rather than the brain damage lobotomy idea that seems to be the popular conception.  I wonder what happens when they die?

As far as them being slaves?  I have to agree with Mr. Gaider's position.  As oppressed as mages may be, they are not slaves.

If you would like a clear example of slavery, you need only look to the Grey Warden Right of Conscription.

Against a person's will they force an individual to drink Darkspawn blood (or kill them if they refuse).
Assuming they survive, their old life is now over and their are forced to fight Darkspawn for the rest of their substantially shortened lives.

Serve or die generally fits my definition of slavery.

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Meredith could try to alleviate it by publicaly executing Anders.

The her or Sebastian not killing Anders is what I call clumsy writing in order to have player choice. Sebastian needed to survive as he has a part to play in the future (according to Hepler) and Meredith needed to be in the Gallows in order to facilitate the last boss fight.

I hate that part.

Yea, it would have made more sense if Anders had collaborators within the circle and Meredith found out.
And I would have felt that Anders is less unjustified as he wasn't acting alone.

That would've been much better overall; Meredith (with no crazy sword) uncovers a conspiracy in the Circle, all her paranoia is proved right as a rebellion erupts over Orsino's head.
Would make for a better choice between Meredith's extremism and Orsino trying to salvage what's left of the Circle before it's too late.

[Mnemnosyne]

The question about authority can easily be answered by considering a situation where the Knight-Commander would actually be justified in calling for annulment.

What if the Chantry had, instead of by Anders, been blown up by a cabal of mages deeply rooted in the Circle, ones that threatened further action if they were not released, right away? That's the sort of situation the Rite of Annulment was created for, so when considering whether Meredith had the legal authority to order the Rite, consider the situation if an appropriate reason had actually come up.

In such an event she must have the legal authority to enact the rite. Any other option would lead to disaster, since the mages, even if supposedly secured inside the Gallows, would be able to summon who knows how many demons? Also consider that the veil is thin in the gallows already. A renegade group of mages could intentionally tear the veil and make all of Kirkwall effectively uninhabitable. Consider the situation in the Blackmarsh and then extrapolate to an entire city full of people rather than a small village.

So it makes perfect sense that a Knight-Commander must have the legal authority to initiate a rite of annulment if their superiors cannot be contacted for a significant length of time. It's clearly not some kind of writer ass-pull to cover up the fact. Obviously, Meredith was wrong to call for annulment in the situation we're presented with in-game, but I see no reason to argue that it makes no sense for her to have that authority.

[Pzykozis]

IanPolaris wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If Meridith had no way to contact higher authoriy, I might be willing to let this slide more, but she did. She never bothered to even consider using it.

-Polaris

She'd have to leave the country to get authorisation, thats a fairly big impediment to contacting a higher authority to which she could then act on. It's not like she can send a quick text message. As the highest ranking member in the region she has the powers of said role therefore she can legally call a right of annulment without word from orlais (after all Gregoir seeks word from Denerim not Orlais).

Aye, it's not ethical at all she's punishing an unrelated group of people, but I don't see how it contravenes / is illegal. Even if I do like to poke small holes in her.

Wrong.  Gregoire ddn''t have to leave the Fereldan tower to seek authorization from Denerim.  There is no reason Meridith would have to move an inch.

It's called sending a messenger......

-Polaris

That's not the point though, the messenger still has to leave the country which still means there's a massive impediment for communication with the higher command. I'm sure if the higher ups don't agree with her they would behind the scenes punish her after the fact but someone needs to be in charge during the onsuiing chaos and they must have the powers that come with that new position.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Orwain at no points says he tried to hide. He says that he tried to escape couldn't and went back to work in the stockroom because it was familiar.

He repeatedly asks you not to draw attention to him because he would like to remain in one piece. Which is what a person who is hiding would say.

[Herr Uhl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong.  Gregoire ddn''t have to leave the Fereldan tower to seek authorization from Denerim.  There is no reason Meridith would have to move an inch.

It's called sending a messenger......

-Polaris

That she has the authority to act?

You also stated previously that he sent word to Denerim in order to get reinforcements, which she wouldn't need as she has the largest collection of templars in eastern Thedas.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 03 avril 2011 - 06:56 .

[IanPolaris]

Koyasha wrote...

So it makes perfect sense that a Knight-Commander must have the legal authority to initiate a rite of annulment if their superiors cannot be contacted for a significant length of time. It's clearly not some kind of writer ass-pull to cover up the fact. Obviously, Meredith was wrong to call for annulment in the situation we're presented with in-game, but I see no reason to argue that it makes no sense for her to have that authority.

I disagree with you here.  I think a writer ass-pull is exactly what this is.  The Rite of Annulement is the ultimate act of last resort and it is explicitly given to the clergy (Grand Cleric) and not a Templar of any rank...not even the Knight Vigalent can order on his own note an annulment.  Consider the potential for abuse otherwise (the Templars could easily coerce the mages into helping them take over the chantry otherwise!)

The situation you talk about is almost exactly the situation that KC Gregoire faced and he clearly as out of communmications for hightly justifiable reasons and he STILL had to wait for authorization.  DG is the writer and he gets to write the lore, but IMHO an ass-pull is exactly what this was.  Even in the situation you describe, there is no immediate threat by keeping the mages (and presumably demons) confined.  If quarantine breaks, then claim you are acting to stem the emergency.

Meridith didn't even bother.  She just wanted all mages to die and practically danced with glee at the opportunity.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Wrong.  Gregoire ddn''t have to leave the Fereldan tower to seek authorization from Denerim.  There is no reason Meridith would have to move an inch.

It's called sending a messenger......

-Polaris

That she has the authority to act?

You also stated preciously that he sent word to Denerim in order to get reinforcement, which she wouldn't need as she has the largest collection of templars in eastern Thedas.

Frankly yes or that the Rite was indeed needed.  Whatever DG says about the technical legality, Meridith is pushing her actual authority to the breaking point and far exceeds (even by DG's admission) any real moral authority (which a leader desperately needs).  Simply confining the mages and asking the Divine (even if you don't think you have to) maintains that moral authority...and it's no like (per K-Captain Cullen) that there is an actual immediate threat.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Orwain at no points says he tried to hide. He says that he tried to escape couldn't and went back to work in the stockroom because it was familiar.

He repeatedly asks you not to draw attention to him because he would like to remain in one piece. Which is what a person who is hiding would say.

Actually he doesn't say that.  His first words were, "Please don't enter the storeroom.  It's a mess."  Seriously.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Whatever DG says about the technical legality, Meridith is pushing her actual authority to the breaking point and far exceeds (even by DG's admission) any real moral authority (which a leader desperately needs).

I don't think we're provided with single instance of a leader in DA universe who is actually concerned with moral authority. Even ones who claim it's their concern (like Eamon) just use it as leverage to achieve their goals.

Moral authority may be desperately needed in high fantasy, but in DA it's largely optional.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Angry One wrote...

Terrorism is never justified.

terrorism is just an abstract concept. 

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 03 avril 2011 - 07:07 .

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The her or Sebastian not killing Anders is what I call clumsy writing in order to have player choice. Sebastian needed to survive as he has a part to play in the future (according to Hepler) and Meredith needed to be in the Gallows in order to facilitate the last boss fight.

I hate that part.

Did Helper give any indication what type of role Sebastian might play in the future? I'd assume it would have to do with Starkhaven, but he seems reluctant to take the throne in his quests, and is only determined to take the throne immediately if Anders is spared by Hawke. Given that the storyline of DA2 didn't diverge too much, I'd wonder how they would reconcile a storyline that would accomodate Sebastian wanting revenge against Anders (and possibly Hawke) with Sebastian remaining at Hawke's side because Anders is dead.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually he doesn't say that.  His first words were, "Please don't enter the storeroom.  It's a mess."  Seriously.

The line i cited is supplied whenever you try to initiate conversation with him after the first one.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Frankly yes or that the Rite was indeed needed.  Whatever DG says about the technical legality, Meridith is pushing her actual authority to the breaking point and far exceeds (even by DG's admission) any real moral authority (which a leader desperately needs).  Simply confining the mages and asking the Divine (even if you don't think you have to) maintains that moral authority...and it's no like (per K-Captain Cullen) that there is an actual immediate threat.

-Polaris

No immediate threat? Show me where Cullen says that. That's a little hard to sell considering how the Chantry has just been wiped off the face of the map, and that there's no way to tell how involved the circle was. In fact there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that suggests they were involved.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I guess unless everyone absolutely hates Anders for ending a thousand years of slavery, their opinion doesn't matter.

And if that "end" is ultimately the slaughter of every single mage on Thedas do you still think that praiseworthy?

If every mage on Thedas gets slaughtered I think I'd have to agree with Anders on some things...

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Whatever DG says about the technical legality, Meridith is pushing her actual authority to the breaking point and far exceeds (even by DG's admission) any real moral authority (which a leader desperately needs).

I don't think we're provided with single instance of a leader in DA universe who is actually concerned with moral authority. Even ones who claim it's their concern (like Eamon) just use it as leverage to achieve their goals.

Moral authority may be desperately needed in high fantasy, but in DA it's largely optional.

That's incorrect.  Knight Commander Meridith (no matter what ending) was completely within her rights to call for the execution of the Champion, either as an open apostate, a man aidng and abbetting rebel/mages during a templar operations, or one sheltering malificar.

Her lack of moral authority is what makes the Templars disobey this final (legal and legitamate!) order.  That's not just me saying that.  DG quite explicily agreed with this earlier in this very thread.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Frankly yes or that the Rite was indeed needed.  Whatever DG says about the technical legality, Meridith is pushing her actual authority to the breaking point and far exceeds (even by DG's admission) any real moral authority (which a leader desperately needs).  Simply confining the mages and asking the Divine (even if you don't think you have to) maintains that moral authority...and it's no like (per K-Captain Cullen) that there is an actual immediate threat.

-Polaris

No immediate threat? Show me where Cullen says that. That's a little hard to sell considering how the Chantry has just been wiped off the face of the map, and that there's no way to tell how involved the circle was. In fact there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that suggests they were involved.

No there isn't.  Anders acted alone (or with the help of your party).  There is no evidence at all that the circle was even involved, and Meridith admits this and orders the annulment anyway.

There is no immediate threat and Cullen quite unfavorably compares the situation with Ferelden where there really was a real immediate threat and the Annulment was ultimately not needed.

-Polaris

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Did Helper give any indication what type of role Sebastian might play in the future? I'd assume it would have to do with Starkhaven, but he seems reluctant to take the throne in his quests, and is only determined to take the throne immediately if Anders is spared by Hawke. Given that the storyline of DA2 didn't diverge too much, I'd wonder how they would reconcile a storyline that would accomodate Sebastian wanting revenge against Anders (and possibly Hawke) with Sebastian remaining at Hawke's side because Anders is dead.

No, only this, and it could arguably be DLC related.

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Sebastian's story is not finished yet. Don't worry.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

So, in the end, Anders is a terrorist or a revolutionary or a freedom fighter or a martyr

There is no "or", he IS a terrorist. He can be more than one thing, just because he's a terrorist doesn't stop him from being a freedom fighter/martyr or whatever else. 

Seriously.

He blew up a church. He did so knowing that not one Templar was within it, only various priests and worshipers. He then turns around and admits that he did it specifically because he knew people would react to it far more profoundly than if he'd killed anyone else.

It's a textbook act of terrorism.

My answer: It's done. The situation has been dealt with. Whether Anders is a martyr or a terrorist is academic.