1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

My answer: It's done. The situation has been dealt with. Whether Anders is a martyr or a terrorist is academic.

Being a terrorist and a martyr aren't mutually exclusive.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's incorrect.  Knight Commander Meridith (no matter what ending) was completely within her rights to call for the execution of the Champion, either as an open apostate, a man aidng and abbetting rebel/mages during a templar operations, or one sheltering malificar.

Her lack of moral authority is what makes the Templars disobey this final (legal and legitamate!) order.  That's not just me saying that.  DG quite explicily agreed with this earlier in this very thread.

I thought it's just yet another ham-fisted instance of Hawke's plot armour. Considering her moral authority appeared to be just fine to make people listen to her supposedly questionable orders for years, and the templars happily participate in wiping the mages up in the Gallows in the finale ... but as soon as the PC is about to get arrested the second-in-command goes "oh no Meredith, now we can't have that, you've now gone completely crazy" and the rest has instant heel face turn as well. Even though the Hawke in question has just murdered roughly a hundred of templars or more.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

No there isn't.  Anders acted alone (or with the help of your party).  There is no evidence at all that the circle was even involved, and Meridith admits this and orders the annulment anyway.

There is no immediate threat and Cullen quite unfavorably compares the situation with Ferelden where there really was a real immediate threat and the Annulment was ultimately not needed.

-Polaris

• The Circle in Kirkwall is riddled with maleficarum and has been so for years. The mages are known to be in contact with various groups including the resolutionists and the mage underground, of which Anders is a member.
• The atmosphere created by Orsino is such that everyone is waiting for them to make a move.
• Minutes before the blast goes off, Orsino is refusing a reasonable request to search the Tower.

That's enough to make me, and I'd think any templar on the ground, seriously consider that Anders had help from within the circle. Despite what Orsino says. 

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

No there isn't.  Anders acted alone (or with the help of your party). 

Anders says he's acted alone. You're free to believe a man who's just admitted to blowing up the church for the sake of mages, but who is to say he isn't lying about acting alone, also to protect these other mages who are apparently so dear to him he'd start an all-out war over their well-being? Meredith simply chooses not to believe him, and it's a well founded belief.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No there isn't.  Anders acted alone (or with the help of your party).  There is no evidence at all that the circle was even involved, and Meridith admits this and orders the annulment anyway.

There is no immediate threat and Cullen quite unfavorably compares the situation with Ferelden where there really was a real immediate threat and the Annulment was ultimately not needed.

-Polaris

• The Circle in Kirkwall is riddled with maleficarum and has been so for years. The mages are known to be in contact with various groups including the resolutionists and the mage underground, of which Anders is a member.
• The atmosphere created by Orsino is such that everyone is waiting for them to make a move.
• Minutes before the blast goes off, Orsino is refusing a reasonable request to search the Tower.

That's enough to make me, and I'd think any templar on the ground, seriously consider that Anders had help from within the circle. Despite what Orsino says. 

Anders admits his guilt in front of everyone.  You can confirm that you (not anyone in the circle) were his dupes.  Prince Sebasion seems pretty convinced that Anders is the sole guilty party.  For that matter when Orsino protests that the circle had nothing to do with it, Meridith never says he is wrong.  She says that she doesn't care.

That's proof enough that Meridith knows perfectly well that the Circle didn't do this, but it's her gleeful and glorious opportunity to slaughter mages for the greater glory of the Maker of course.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

• The Circle in Kirkwall is riddled with maleficarum and has been so for years. The mages are known to be in contact with various groups including the resolutionists and the mage underground, of which Anders is a member.
• The atmosphere created by Orsino is such that everyone is waiting for them to make a move.
• Minutes before the blast goes off, Orsino is refusing a reasonable request to search the Tower.

That's enough to make me, and I'd think any templar on the ground, seriously consider that Anders had help from within the circle. Despite what Orsino says. 

Yet Meredith does nothing about Anders, and gives no indication that she even wants to know if he had any assistance from any members of the Circle. She seizes the incident to declare the Rite of Annulment against all Circle mages in Kirkwall and leaves Anders to Hawke.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Herr Uhl wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

My answer: It's done. The situation has been dealt with. Whether Anders is a martyr or a terrorist is academic.

Being a terrorist and a martyr aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree. 

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No there isn't.  Anders acted alone (or with the help of your party). 

Anders says he's acted alone. You're free to believe a man who's just admitted to blowing up the church for the sake of mages, but who is to say he isn't lying about acting alone, also to protect these other mages who are apparently so dear to him he'd start an all-out war over their well-being? Meredith simply chooses not to believe him, and it's a well founded belief.

Meridith believes he acted alone too.  There is NO EVIDENCE that anyone in the circle was remotely involved.  Varic quite brutally tells Cassandra that it was a gross injustice and the Seeker seems to agree.

-Polaris

[Ace Attorney]

On the long term, it may be justified. History has a way to look back at these type of acts. See the French Revolution, Civil Wars, etc.
On the short term, it isn't justified definitely. The death of innocents is not a just way to peace and freedom.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...


[*]Yet Meredith does nothing about Anders, and gives no indication that she even wants to know if he had any assistance from any members of the Circle. She seizes the incident to declare the Rite of Annulment against all Circle mages in Kirkwall and leaves Anders to Hawke.

Indeed, if Meridith really thought that Anders had help from the circle, she would have demanded Ander's immediate arrest and interrogation (by force if necessary) and even my most pro-mage Hawke wouldn't have said boo.  Neither would the first enchanter.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Meridith believes he acted alone too.

I don't recall her saying that. Does she?

[stobie]

Wugger wrote...

Ander's act was evil. He murdered a good woman and god knows how many innocents just practising their religion. He forced a city into a war which could have been averted, and therefore led to the deaths of countless others. Worst still, he didn't seem to regret his murdering at all, seriously no character has ever made me more angry in any game I've played, hats off to Bioware on that one.

I'm a little shocked at how so many people aren't bothered by what is a blatant act of terroism, though I guess it is a game.

That 'good woman' turns a blind eye to horrible abuses, and presides over a group that allows drugging its templars.  Mages are not made, they're born - and told they're cursed.  It appears blatantly political to me, and not in any way religious.  It's about who has the power, & who keeps the power, & who threatens that power.  Why isn't making mages tranquil against their will 'terrorism' in your view?  Why isn't locking mages up a similar act?  As I see her, that 'good woman' is an arm of a terrorist group, and a terrorist group that's currently in control.  If they push those they've repressed & tortured to extreme acts, well, that should have been pretty predictable.

[ddv.rsa]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Meridith believes he acted alone too.

I don't recall her saying that. Does she?

Nor do I. Quote please?

[LadyVaJedi]

Good point Stobie. It seems that people think what Anders is terrorism because of 9/11 since the Two Towers were blown up.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders admits his guilt in front of everyone.  You can confirm that you (not anyone in the circle) were his dupes.  Prince Sebasion seems pretty convinced that Anders is the sole guilty party.  For that matter when Orsino protests that the circle had nothing to do with it, Meridith never says he is wrong.  She says that she doesn't care.

That's proof enough that Meridith knows perfectly well that the Circle didn't do this, but it's her gleeful and glorious opportunity to slaughter mages for the greater glory of the Maker of course.

-Polaris

You can help in his plot, sure. But who says you're the only help he gets? And I've always wondered who sets off the blast. Can he do it remotely? Is it timed? Or does he have some suicide bomber accomplice?

As for what Meredith says, I'm not certain. Give me a second to look it up and then we can discuss it.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders admits his guilt in front of everyone.  You can confirm that you (not anyone in the circle) were his dupes.  Prince Sebasion seems pretty convinced that Anders is the sole guilty party.  For that matter when Orsino protests that the circle had nothing to do with it, Meridith never says he is wrong.  She says that she doesn't care.

That's proof enough that Meridith knows perfectly well that the Circle didn't do this, but it's her gleeful and glorious opportunity to slaughter mages for the greater glory of the Maker of course.

-Polaris

You can help in his plot, sure. But who says you're the only help he gets? And I've always wondered who sets off the blast. Can he do it remotely? Is it timed? Or does he have some suicide bomber accomplice?

As for what Meredith says, I'm not certain. Give me a second to look it up and then we can discuss it.

Meridith doesn't say that Anders acted alone, but there is NOTHING in the game either pro-mage or pro-templar that indicates anything else.  Orisino pleads that the circle had nothing to do with it, and Meridith says, "The Grand Cleric was slain by magic.  I couldn't protect the mages even if I wanted to" (which is a bald faced lie given that the gallows are on an island.

She doesn't demand Anders arrest.  She doesn't challenge Orisino's assertions. She doesn't demand that Anders name circle co-conspiritaors.  Every action by EVERY characters screams that Anders acted alone (Meridith included)  It's only a couple of pro-templar posters who are pulling the "circle might be complicit" from their posteriors because there is zero support for that in the game.

-Polaris

[JabbaDaHutt30]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

Good point Stobie. It seems that people think what Anders is terrorism because of 9/11 since the Two Towers were blown up.

He probably is a terrorist according to many definitions of the word, but the word itself is just a mudsling in this Anders convo as no one wants to defend a terrorist. The word itself suggest that Anders is mainly interested in causing terror and nothing else; it has simply  become derogatory.

[LadyVaJedi]

So are the templers as well terrorists as well. Making people tranquil against their will and then caging as them as well. The Chantry did nothing to stop it.

[The Angry One]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

He probably is a terrorist according to many definitions of the word, but the word itself is just a mudsling in this Anders convo as no one wants to defend a terrorist. The word itself suggest that Anders is mainly interested in causing terror and nothing else; it has simply  become derogatory.

The definition of terrorist is using terror to achieve ones goals. Hence terrorist.
In this case, Anders instills terror by blowing up the Chantry which leads to all out war between mages and templars.
His goal was achieved through terror. He is a terrorist.

[stobie]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

Good point Stobie. It seems that people think what Anders is terrorism because of 9/11 since the Two Towers were blown up.

I was surprised they dared take that route - it would be hard to overlook the similar appearance, true.  In fairness, though, nothing 'just happens.'  In the game's case, the repression of mages is pretty direct, & the Chantry seems really unsympathetic to me.  (however, I just read the Andraste/Maker thing as a political manifestation, & I didn't take it literally, either way.)    I think ultimately,well, yes, some mages are bad.  Some warriors are bad. They can all kill a lot of people. (My rogue's count is no lower than my mage's, for instance)   Condemning people before the fact just seems wrong, and whether it's Mage-land or Chantry-land, it's still wrong.  I'd be perfectly happy to fight mages in the Imperium, too, had the game been set where they held all the power. And I'd fully expect a slave-Anders type to rise up & start tearing it down.  Doesn't Fenris hint at this? That at some point, the slaves will rise up & find that they aren't so weak, after all?   Sadly, when something becomes swollen & bloated & takes control of lives, people will fight, & that can mean some pretty extreme acts.  

I would have liked to 'talk Anders down,' but part of me felt he was right.  Things couldn't go on as they were. (and after the, "you... blew up an old woman...  ugh!" moment, and over subsequent playthroughs, I began to see the Grand Cleric as a passive villain herself.  (the Petrice moment really got me - she killed a lot of people herself. No war started, because she was on the side of power. For all we know, 2 people were in the chantry when Anders blew it up. I think I just saw 2, anyway.) 

Worse, for real life analogies, the Chantry's higher ups seem to be overlooking some pretty horrific abuses, whether it's Alric-styled, or whatever.  That's just horrifying to me, and can only be explained by, "we want to keep our power.' 

Modifié par stobie, 03 avril 2011 - 08:09 .

[stobie]

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

He probably is a terrorist according to many definitions of the word, but the word itself is just a mudsling in this Anders convo as no one wants to defend a terrorist. The word itself suggest that Anders is mainly interested in causing terror and nothing else; it has simply  become derogatory.

The definition of terrorist is using terror to achieve ones goals. Hence terrorist.
In this case, Anders instills terror by blowing up the Chantry which leads to all out war between mages and templars.
His goal was achieved through terror. He is a terrorist.

Then so is Petrice, for her treatment of the Qunari, & therefore, the Chantry is a terrorist group, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
She doesn't demand Anders arrest.

Which is actually idiotic, how she just leaves Anders' fate to the Champion.

I understand that the game wanted to give us a choice, but seriously? Meredith doesn't seem to care at all when she should have gone bezerk on him.

If Anders ran away and we confront him later without Meredith nearby, that would have made more sense.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

He probably is a terrorist according to many definitions of the word, but the word itself is just a mudsling in this Anders convo as no one wants to defend a terrorist. The word itself suggest that Anders is mainly interested in causing terror and nothing else; it has simply  become derogatory.

The definition of terrorist is using terror to achieve ones goals. Hence terrorist.
In this case, Anders instills terror by blowing up the Chantry which leads to all out war between mages and templars.
His goal was achieved through terror. He is a terrorist.

That definition also applies to revolutionaries across human history who fought for liberty and attacked the ruling regime. The slaves fighting for their freedom in Saint Dominique, the revolutionists of the thirteen colonies fighting for freedom from England, the revolutionaries of Cuba who fought against the dictatorship of General Batista. I can see that how Anders is perceived by the people of Thedas would likely differ when it comes to the perspective of the mages and the templars.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Meridith doesn't say that Anders acted alone, but there is NOTHING in the game either pro-mage or pro-templar that indicates anything else.  Orisino pleads that the circle had nothing to do with it, and Meridith says, "The Grand Cleric was slain by magic.  I couldn't protect the mages even if I wanted to" (which is a bald faced lie given that the gallows are on an island.

She doesn't demand Anders arrest.  She doesn't challenge Orisino's assertions. She doesn't demand that Anders name circle co-conspiritaors.  Every action by EVERY characters screams that Anders acted alone (Meridith included)  It's only a couple of pro-templar posters who are pulling the "circle might be complicit" from their posteriors because there is zero support for that in the game.

-Polaris

Here's the convo

Conversation after the chantry explodes:
Meredith: The grand cleric has been slain by maic, the chantry destroyed.
Meredith: As knight-commander of Kirkwall I hereby invoke the right of annulment. Every mage in the circle is to be executed - immediatley.
Orsino: The Circle didn't even do this! Champion, you can't let her! Help us stop this madness!
Meredith: (ignoring Orsino) And I call on you keep order! After what just occured, you cannot deny what must be done.
Hawke: Order must be restored.
Sebastion: Your first act must be to execute this traitor.
Merrill: You can't side with her! Please, I can't support this!
Aveline: It's unfortunate, but it's the only way.
Fenris: The mages cannot hide behind their rights when they endager so many.
Isabella: Crushing the rebels are we? How dare they wish for freedom? 
Bethany: Don't do this. Don't make me choose between my people and my family.
Orsino: Think carefully, champion. This is not justice.
Hawke: It's done.
Meredith: Very wise.
Merrill: Are you sure about this? You know she's going to murder people whose only crime was being born a mage.
Hawke: What do you want me to do? Let the city go up in flames?
Hawke: People will die no matter what we choose. Anders made sure of that.
Hawke: All we can do now is try to keep casualties to a minimum.
Merrill: I suppose... you're right. This decision was taken out of our hands.
Orsino: Stop them! I will warn the others!
Meredith: Gather our forces! We will deal with this.
Other one-liners:
Meredith: It doesn't matter. Even if I wished to, I could not stay my hand. The people will demand blood.
--
Hawke: You know what we face! The mages in there, they have risked everything. All of us! 
Hawke: That's not a danger I can ignore. You want peace in Kirkwall? This is where we create it! 
(imo suggests at least hawke believes anders was not alone)

[stobie]

LobselVith8 wrote...




That definition also applies to revolutionaries across human history who fought for liberty and attacked the ruling regime. The slaves fighting for their freedom in Saint Dominique, the revolutionists of the thirteen colonies fighting for freedom from England, the revolutionaries of Cuba who fought against the dictatorship of General Batista. I can see that how Anders is perceived by the people of Thedas would likely differ when it comes to the perspective of the mages and the templars.

That is indeed an uncomfortable truth  

Modifié par stobie, 03 avril 2011 - 08:07 .