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[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That definition also applies to revolutionaries across human history who fought for liberty and attacked the ruling regime. The slaves fighting for their freedom in Saint Dominique, the revolutionists of the thirteen colonies fighting for freedom from England, the revolutionaries of Cuba who fought against the dictatorship of General Batista. I can see that how Anders is perceived by the people of Thedas would likely differ when it comes to the perspective of the mages and the templars.

And how many of those blew up civilians to spread terror among those civilians?
I'm sorry, but Anders is no revolutionary. He's a Basque Seperatist. He's IRA. He's Al Qaeda.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[Mnemnosyne]

IanPolaris wrote...

The situation you talk about is almost exactly the situation that KC Gregoire faced and he clearly as out of communmications for hightly justifiable reasons and he STILL had to wait for authorization.  DG is the writer and he gets to write the lore, but IMHO an ass-pull is exactly what this was.  Even in the situation you describe, there is no immediate threat by keeping the mages (and presumably demons) confined.  If quarantine breaks, then claim you are acting to stem the emergency.

Meridith didn't even bother.  She just wanted all mages to die and practically danced with glee at the opportunity.

-Polaris

Greagoir didn't really wait, to be honest.  He sent the Warden to do what he could not: kill everything inside the tower.  He clearly didn't seem to have the forces to handle it himself, but allowed the Warden to do it on insistence.  Would he have waited for authorization from Denerim if he'd had the full forces on hand to handle it himself?  Who knows.  He sent the Warden in to kill them all, so it seems entirely plausible that he would have done it himself if he'd had the forces to do so.  It also seems plausible that he felt he could contain the threat until he had proper authorization, but if he had felt as though the threat may get loose, he would have gone ahead and done it without waiting.

It's also clear he didn't recognize any sort of special authority the Wardens may have, not that it is ever implied that the Wardens have any authority over the Chantry or the templars no matter the situation.  He certainly didn't seem to want to acknowledge clearly established Warden authority of conscripting the mage Warden in the beginning.  Although he relented, he didn't want to give the Mage Warden up to Duncan, even though it's clear that Duncan has every right to conscript her.

Now, I never disagree that Meredith was acting inappropriately, but I completely agree that it is logical for that authority to fall to her, if the Grand Cleric is dead.

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

(imo suggests at least hawke believes anders was not alone)

There's no proof that Anders was working with anyone from the Circle. He doesn't even want to involve Hawke by letting him know because of the fear that Hawke may have wanted to be complicit in the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry, which invalidates any theory anyone might have that Anders conspired with anyone else to kill the Grand Cleric.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

(imo suggests at least hawke believes anders was not alone)

There's no proof that Anders was working with anyone from the Circle. He doesn't even want to involve Hawke by letting him know because of the fear that Hawke may have wanted to be complicit in the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry, which invalidates any theory anyone might have that Anders conspired with anyone else to kill the Grand Cleric.

I'm just going by what Hawke says there. But who do you think set off the blast?

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

And how many of those blew up civilians to spread terror among those civilians?
I'm sorry, but Anders is no revolutionary. He's a Basque Seperatist. He's IRA. He's Al Qaeda.

According to the definitions, Anders can be both. As for explosions that ended up killing innocent people, WWII ended the same way, with the nuclear bombing of Japan.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That definition also applies to revolutionaries across human history who fought for liberty and attacked the ruling regime. The slaves fighting for their freedom in Saint Dominique, the revolutionists of the thirteen colonies fighting for freedom from England, the revolutionaries of Cuba who fought against the dictatorship of General Batista. I can see that how Anders is perceived by the people of Thedas would likely differ when it comes to the perspective of the mages and the templars.

Yes, they were terrorist too in that case. Revolutionaries can be terrorists.

[sphinxess]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Meridith doesn't say that Anders acted alone, but there is NOTHING in the game either pro-mage or pro-templar that indicates anything else.  Orisino pleads that the circle had nothing to do with it, and Meridith says, "The Grand Cleric was slain by magic.  I couldn't protect the mages even if I wanted to" (which is a bald faced lie given that the gallows are on an island.

She doesn't demand Anders arrest.  She doesn't challenge Orisino's assertions. She doesn't demand that Anders name circle co-conspiritaors.  Every action by EVERY characters screams that Anders acted alone (Meridith included)  It's only a couple of pro-templar posters who are pulling the "circle might be complicit" from their posteriors because there is zero support for that in the game.

-Polaris

Here's the convo

Conversation after the chantry explodes:
Meredith: The grand cleric has been slain by maic, the chantry destroyed.
Meredith: As knight-commander of Kirkwall I hereby invoke the right of annulment. Every mage in the circle is to be executed - immediatley.
Orsino: The Circle didn't even do this! Champion, you can't let her! Help us stop this madness!
Meredith: (ignoring Orsino) And I call on you keep order! After what just occured, you cannot deny what must be done.
Hawke: Order must be restored.
Sebastion: Your first act must be to execute this traitor.
Merrill: You can't side with her! Please, I can't support this!
Aveline: It's unfortunate, but it's the only way.
Fenris: The mages cannot hide behind their rights when they endager so many.
Isabella: Crushing the rebels are we? How dare they wish for freedom? 
Bethany: Don't do this. Don't make me choose between my people and my family.
Orsino: Think carefully, champion. This is not justice.
Hawke: It's done.
Meredith: Very wise.
Merrill: Are you sure about this? You know she's going to murder people whose only crime was being born a mage.
Hawke: What do you want me to do? Let the city go up in flames?
Hawke: People will die no matter what we choose. Anders made sure of that.
Hawke: All we can do now is try to keep casualties to a minimum.
Merrill: I suppose... you're right. This decision was taken out of our hands.
Orsino: Stop them! I will warn the others!
Meredith: Gather our forces! We will deal with this.
Other one-liners:
Meredith: It doesn't matter. Even if I wished to, I could not stay my hand. The people will demand blood.
--
Hawke: You know what we face! The mages in there, they have risked everything. All of us! 
Hawke: That's not a danger I can ignore. You want peace in Kirkwall? This is where we create it! 
(imo suggests at least hawke believes anders was not alone)

Im not sure what is being argued here - Meredith has the authority to execute Anders - the Champion does not - Nobles with a title have the right to high justice in their areas of rule - the champion is not the Viscount .

Meredith has the authority to invoke the Rite of Annulment - is it a emergency  or justified? You might go read what Mr Gaider wrote about what the reaction from Orlais would have been when they found out - its in this thread.

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

I'm just going by what Hawke says there. But who do you think set off the blast?

Anders does, which is why the explosion happens after he handles his staff.

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That definition also applies to revolutionaries across human history who fought for liberty and attacked the ruling regime. The slaves fighting for their freedom in Saint Dominique, the revolutionists of the thirteen colonies fighting for freedom from England, the revolutionaries of Cuba who fought against the dictatorship of General Batista. I can see that how Anders is perceived by the people of Thedas would likely differ when it comes to the perspective of the mages and the templars.

Yes, they were terrorist too in that case. Revolutionaries can be terrorists.

Which is why I used the word "also."

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And how many of those blew up civilians to spread terror among those civilians?
I'm sorry, but Anders is no revolutionary. He's a Basque Seperatist. He's IRA. He's Al Qaeda.

According to the definitions, Anders can be both. As for explosions that ended up killing innocent people, WWII ended the same way, with the nuclear bombing of Japan.

Comparing what nations do during war and the acts of individuals is futile.
I'm not defending bombing civilians, just saying they're different things, the fact is Anders took it upon himself to murder innocents for the purposes of using the generated terror to further his agenda.
I'm sure he thinks he's a revolutionary but guess what, the organisations I mentioned think they're revolutionaries too, whether to secure Basque or Irish independance or stopping "American oppression".
However what they THINK is different from what they ARE. Anders THINKS he's a revolutionary. What he IS is a terrorist.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[TJPags]

Ziggeh wrote...

TJPags wrote...

How?  I can see a discussion about whether the Circles are the best way to do things, including whether the mages are imprisoned unjustly, but the debate over whether they are slaves, and the one over whether Meredith had the authority to call for the Rite seem dead.

Definition of free will and like, whether we feel anders was justified?

Whether we think Anders is justified is a fair topic.

Definition of free will is an interesting one.

This nonsense about Meredith though has been shot down by DG, and is silly at this point.  She had the authority.  Whether it was the right decision is a different issue.  But people continue to debate the authority issue.

Likewise, whether mages are slaves is a dead issue.  They are not.  Imprisoned, yes, and we can discuss whether that's justified.  But people insist on calling them slaves.
 
And none of the discussion about Meredith or mages as slaves or prisoners is really on topic whether Anders was justified.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And how many of those blew up civilians to spread terror among those civilians?
I'm sorry, but Anders is no revolutionary. He's a Basque Seperatist. He's IRA. He's Al Qaeda.

According to the definitions, Anders can be both. As for explosions that ended up killing innocent people, WWII ended the same way, with the nuclear bombing of Japan.

And it was an act of terror. 
People should stop assigning ethical judgements to words. Terror has been part of warfare since forever (scales varry) and will likely always remain. Whether you call it terrorism, or "shock and awe" is irrelevent, the idea remains that you want to frighten your enemy. 

The difference, if it's that relevent, is that Anders is not a state.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[stobie]

Personally, I think nations should be judged first & foremost by what they do in war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

stobie wrote...

Personally, I think nations should be judged first & foremost by what they do in war.

Prepare to do a lot of judging then.

[ddv.rsa]

sphinxess wrote...


Im not sure what is being argued here - Meredith has the authority to execute Anders - the Champion does not - Nobles with a title have the right to high justice in their areas of rule - the champion is not the Viscount .

Meredith has the authority to invoke the Rite of Annulment - is it a emergency  or justified? You might go read what Mr Gaider wrote about what the reaction from Orlais would have been when they found out - its in this thread.

I'm not arguing anything, I just put the conversation up for reference. There was confusion as to exactly what Meredith and others said.

As for the reaction from Orlais, I can't find any word on it by Gaider. How did they react?

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 03 avril 2011 - 08:27 .

[stobie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And how many of those blew up civilians to spread terror among those civilians?
I'm sorry, but Anders is no revolutionary. He's a Basque Seperatist. He's IRA. He's Al Qaeda.

According to the definitions, Anders can be both. As for explosions that ended up killing innocent people, WWII ended the same way, with the nuclear bombing of Japan.

And it was an act of terror. 
People should stop assigning ethical judgements to words. Terror has been part of warfare since forever (scales varry) and will likely always remain. Whether you call it terrorism, or "shock and awe" is irrelevent, the idea remains that you want to frighten your enemy. 

The difference, if it's that relevent, is that Anders is not a state.

Fair point there! For whatever reason, being bombed or shot at IS scary.    One person doesn't have the same power to control masses, as does a corrupt organization, and since pretty much everyone in the game has 'murdered innocents,' I'm not sure why Anders's act is all that horrifying.  He wasn't killing random innocents in an effort to scare people - he was after a symbol of power, and as for the Grand Cleric, she could easily be seen as an enemy combatant.  

I would think most of us killed Kelder, for instance. Well, *I* did, anyway!  He was hurting people - and it seems to me that passive old hag was, too.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I'm just going by what Hawke says there. But who do you think set off the blast?

Anders does, which is why the explosion happens after he handles his staff.

We  could debate this forever. If Hawke doesn't help Anders, someone else does. It suggests he has contacts. I also think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest he may have help within the the circle. But again, it's just that - circumstantial evidence. It can neither be proved or disproved. How about we agree to disagree?

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the definitions, Anders can be both. As for explosions that ended up killing innocent people, WWII ended the same way, with the nuclear bombing of Japan.

And it was an act of terror. 
People should stop assigning ethical judgements to words. Terror has been part of warfare since forever (scales varry) and will likely always remain. Whether you call it terrorism, or "shock and awe" is irrelevent, the idea remains that you want to frighten your enemy. 

The difference, if it's that relevent, is that Anders is not a state.

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

[pingupower]

At first I felled that the whole ending was like a hole in the story. After a new playthrough I think it is actually well brought and some little adjustments are made for the sake of gameplay, such as meredith not interested in Anders at all.
What bothers me the most is the ay you kill him. I mean who stabs a guy in the back like that. I would have liked otpions to kill him properly (in front at least), to hand him to the templars to be made tranquil, and to force him to commit suicide. That would have been a bit better.

Also for his act in itself. Well I am play a nice hawk, diplomatic an so on but well Elthina is really pushing it.
Act 2: Qunari are threatening the city, and zealots form your chantry are provoking a war, could you perchance do somthing before they set the city ablaze? "Nope, the maker commands me to stand and watch and lay the blame on others"
Act 3: Ok now there is tempalr dicatorship over the city, oppression of mages who are therefor led to desperate measures. You being the leader of templars could in one way or another solve the whole thing quickly and rule the city instead of Meredith or at least appoint someone, care to to do something? Come on the divine wants to send an army on us? "Nope, cf what I did a few years back". By the way how did that end?

Modifié par pingupower, 03 avril 2011 - 08:35 .

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Meridith doesn't say that Anders acted alone, but there is NOTHING in the game either pro-mage or pro-templar that indicates anything else.  Orisino pleads that the circle had nothing to do with it, and Meridith says, "The Grand Cleric was slain by magic.  I couldn't protect the mages even if I wanted to" (which is a bald faced lie given that the gallows are on an island.

She doesn't demand Anders arrest.  She doesn't challenge Orisino's assertions. She doesn't demand that Anders name circle co-conspiritaors.  Every action by EVERY characters screams that Anders acted alone (Meridith included)  It's only a couple of pro-templar posters who are pulling the "circle might be complicit" from their posteriors because there is zero support for that in the game.

-Polaris

Here's the convo

Conversation after the chantry explodes:
Meredith: The grand cleric has been slain by maic, the chantry destroyed.
Meredith: As knight-commander of Kirkwall I hereby invoke the right of annulment. Every mage in the circle is to be executed - immediatley.
Orsino: The Circle didn't even do this! Champion, you can't let her! Help us stop this madness!
Meredith: (ignoring Orsino) And I call on you keep order! After what just occured, you cannot deny what must be done.
Hawke: Order must be restored.
Sebastion: Your first act must be to execute this traitor.
Merrill: You can't side with her! Please, I can't support this!
Aveline: It's unfortunate, but it's the only way.
Fenris: The mages cannot hide behind their rights when they endager so many.
Isabella: Crushing the rebels are we? How dare they wish for freedom? 
Bethany: Don't do this. Don't make me choose between my people and my family.
Orsino: Think carefully, champion. This is not justice.
Hawke: It's done.
Meredith: Very wise.
Merrill: Are you sure about this? You know she's going to murder people whose only crime was being born a mage.
Hawke: What do you want me to do? Let the city go up in flames?
Hawke: People will die no matter what we choose. Anders made sure of that.
Hawke: All we can do now is try to keep casualties to a minimum.
Merrill: I suppose... you're right. This decision was taken out of our hands.
Orsino: Stop them! I will warn the others!
Meredith: Gather our forces! We will deal with this.
Other one-liners:
Meredith: It doesn't matter. Even if I wished to, I could not stay my hand. The people will demand blood.
--
Hawke: You know what we face! The mages in there, they have risked everything. All of us! 
Hawke: That's not a danger I can ignore. You want peace in Kirkwall? This is where we create it! 
(imo suggests at least hawke believes anders was not alone)

There is not one scinilla of evidence in there that Anders did not act alone.  Even Meridith apparently thinks he did given that she doesn't challenge (or even care) when the first enchanter insists the circle had nothing to do with it.  You conspiracy theory has no game support and no lore support.  It didn't happen that way.  Merdith simply wants to kill all mages for being mages at this point.  Her actions and reactions make that brutally obvious.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

Personally I'd drag him to the Chantry ruins to rub his face in the burned remains of his innocent victims and see if that affected his sanctimonious attitude, then stab him.

[TJPags]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

None, of course.

Its funny that Anders wants "freedom" for mages, but takes the option of remaining peaceful inhabitants of the circle out of their hands.  But then, terrorists always seem to forget that some people may not agree with them.

[sphinxess]

ddv.rsa wrote...

sphinxess wrote...


Im not sure what is being argued here - Meredith has the authority to execute Anders - the Champion does not - Nobles with a title have the right to high justice in their areas of rule - the champion is not the Viscount .

Meredith has the authority to invoke the Rite of Annulment - is it a emergency  or justified? You might go read what Mr Gaider wrote about what the reaction from Orlais would have been when they found out - its in this thread.

I'm not arguing anything, I just put the conversation up for reference. There was confusion as to exactly what Meredith and others said.

As for the reaction from Orlais, I can't find any word on it by Gaider. How did they react?

I stand corrected - he talks about Cullens reaction - nothing I can find on Orlais

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

We  could debate this forever. If Hawke doesn't help Anders, someone else does. It suggests he has contacts. I also think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest he may have help within the the circle. But again, it's just that - circumstantial evidence. It can neither be proved or disproved. How about we agree to disagree?

My issue is that Anders makes it explicitly clear in his dialogue that he didn't want to involve anyone else in what he was doing, and that he was afraid Hawke even might want to help if he told him (or her) his plans. He says that he couldn't let that happen.