1927 réponses à ce sujet

[ddv.rsa]

At the very least, Ian, what do you make of Hawke's final lines? He seems to think the mages are a danger.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

My issue is that Anders makes it explicitly clear in his dialogue that he didn't want to involve anyone else in what he was doing, and that he was afraid Hawke even might want to help if he told him (or her) his plans. He says that he couldn't let that happen.

He also tells you the ingredients you gather are to free him from Justice.

Anders says many things.

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

Probably the same right the Chantry had when they imprisoned mages across the continent and decided to install a dictatorship for the mages to live in through their Circles.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

And that's part of why I would not find him justified.

If Anders was sober (which he was not), had an actual plan for during and post-revolution, had a strong following that would make him represent someone other than himself, had tried to seek potential allies and had personal qualifications such as intelligence, leadership, wisdom, cunning and maturity, I wouldn't mind his methods that much.

But he displayed none of that and which is why Anders will always be unjustified in my eyes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

We  could debate this forever. If Hawke doesn't help Anders, someone else does. It suggests he has contacts. I also think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest he may have help within the the circle. But again, it's just that - circumstantial evidence. It can neither be proved or disproved. How about we agree to disagree?

My issue is that Anders makes it explicitly clear in his dialogue that he didn't want to involve anyone else in what he was doing, and that he was afraid Hawke even might want to help if he told him (or her) his plans. He says that he couldn't let that happen.

Honestly, I wouldn't  know. I never had much to do with him after Act I and refused all his quests.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

He also tells you the ingredients you gather are to free him from Justice.

Anders says many things.

Death is going to free him from Justice, though.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

At the very least, Ian, what do you make of Hawke's final lines? He seems to think the mages are a danger.

Given that bloodmage seems rife in Kirkwall and given his own mother was murdered by one, that seems a perfectly logical, emotional, if unjust reaction.  It doesn't provide any evidice that you (Hawke) think Anders had any help from the circle.  Orsino denies it and Meridith herself doesn't act like he did either.

It's all in your mind.  Anders acted alone (or used you as dupes).  The game lore is pretty brutally clear about this, really. Listen to what Sebastian says if you won't listen to me.  He sees right through the Charade and is appalled with both sides for totally ignoring the completely guilty party right in front of them!

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

We  could debate this forever. If Hawke doesn't help Anders, someone else does. It suggests he has contacts. I also think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest he may have help within the the circle. But again, it's just that - circumstantial evidence. It can neither be proved or disproved. How about we agree to disagree?

My issue is that Anders makes it explicitly clear in his dialogue that he didn't want to involve anyone else in what he was doing, and that he was afraid Hawke even might want to help if he told him (or her) his plans. He says that he couldn't let that happen.

Honestly, I wouldn't  know. I never had much to do with him after Act I and refused all his quests.

Then you don't have much of a basis for arguing that Anders had help when if you do his quests and talk with him it's quite clear that he doesn't (at least in this).

-Polaris

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

He also tells you the ingredients you gather are to free him from Justice.

Anders says many things.

Death is going to free him from Justice, though.

Well, he didn't kill himself. It was a lie.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

And that's part of why I would not find him justified.

If Anders was sober (which he was not), had an actual plan for during and post-revolution, had a strong following that would make him represent someone other than himself, had tried to seek potential allies and had personal qualifications such as intelligence, leadership, wisdom, cunning and maturity, I wouldn't mind his methods that much.

But he displayed none of that and which is why Anders will always be unjustified in my eyes.

Well said.  He's one man, imposing his views on every other mage, and making the choice for each and every one of them.

Hardly the acts of someone who claims to be acting for "freedom".

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

Probably the same right the Chantry had when they imprisoned mages across the continent and decided to install a dictatorship for the mages to live in through their Circles.

That's just rhetoric. Like it or not there are legitimate reasons for containing mages.
Kirkwall went overboard, but Anders' methods aren't the solution.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

My issue is that Anders makes it explicitly clear in his dialogue that he didn't want to involve anyone else in what he was doing, and that he was afraid Hawke even might want to help if he told him (or her) his plans. He says that he couldn't let that happen.

He also tells you the ingredients you gather are to free him from Justice.

Anders says many things.

He's technically right....from a certain point of view.  Anders (and Justice) fully expect (and want) to be executed for this crime.  This will indeed seperate Anders from Justice.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Death is going to free him from Justice, though.

If that's all it takes, he could've just asked Hawke to stab him in the gut. Or for this matter do it himself. Without gathering or blowing up anything.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

At the very least, Ian, what do you make of Hawke's final lines? He seems to think the mages are a danger.

Hawke can also call the Chantry controlled Circles slavery. If anything, DG has basically informed us that Hawke is a moron.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...
That's just rhetoric. Like it or not there are legitimate reasons for containing mages.
Kirkwall went overboard, but Anders' methods aren't the solution.

No there aren't.  There are legimate reaons for strongly regulating mages but that's a far cry from what you suggest.  Not even the Andrastians wanted to lock up mages until a dotty Ambrosia II wanted to break up a magical worker's strike with an unjustified (even per her Knight Vigalent) Exalted March.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

At the very least, Ian, what do you make of Hawke's final lines? He seems to think the mages are a danger.

Hawke can also call the Chantry controlled Circles slavery. If anything, DG has basically informed us that Hawke is a moron.

Yeah, I caught that.  The less I say about DG the better I think.  Yet another writer ass-pull IMHO.

-Polaris

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

Probably the same right the Chantry had when they imprisoned mages across the continent and decided to install a dictatorship for the mages to live in through their Circles.

You conveniently forget that the Mages went willingly into the first Circles, after a negotiation.  The Chantry didn't "impose" it on them.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Death is going to free him from Justice, though.

If that's all it takes, he could've just asked Hawke to stab him in the gut. Or for this matter do it himself. Without gathering or blowing up anything.

Sure but that wasn't all he wanted.  He told Hawke the very technical truth, but only a part of it.  That's the most effective way to lie ever invented.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders (and Justice) fully expect (and want) to be executed for this crime. 

If i remember right he doesn't protest when he gets spared, at all. Instead he wax lyrical how he doesn't deserve such a friend or something to this effect.

Sadly there is no option to tell him "shut the **** up, you're dying as soon as you're done helping to clean up your own damn mess".

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
That's just rhetoric. Like it or not there are legitimate reasons for containing mages.
Kirkwall went overboard, but Anders' methods aren't the solution.

No there aren't.  There are legimate reaons for strongly regulating mages but that's a far cry from what you suggest.  Not even the Andrastians wanted to lock up mages until a dotty Ambrosia II wanted to break up a magical worker's strike with an unjustified (even per her Knight Vigalent) Exalted March.

-Polaris

You do realise it's the mage who wanted to go to the Circles right?

"The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human
history.

--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar."

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

At the very least, Ian, what do you make of Hawke's final lines? He seems to think the mages are a danger.

Hawke can also call the Chantry controlled Circles slavery. If anything, DG has basically informed us that Hawke is a moron.

Hah, you've got me there. Hawke can say a lot of things.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

Probably the same right the Chantry had when they imprisoned mages across the continent and decided to install a dictatorship for the mages to live in through their Circles.

You conveniently forget that the Mages went willingly into the first Circles, after a negotiation.  The Chantry didn't "impose" it on them.

You are conveniently forgetting that:

1.  The mages did so in lieu of being slaughtered.  Divine Ambrosia had to be talked out of slaughtering every mage in the name of the Maker lest you forget.

2.  The entry was written as Chantry propoganda by a Chantry Sister (Petrine IIRC)

-Polari9s

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders (and Justice) fully expect (and want) to be executed for this crime. 

If i remember right he doesn't protest when he gets spared, at all. Instead he wax lyrical how he doesn't deserve such a friend or something to this effect.

Sadly there is no option to tell him "shut the **** up, you're dying as soon as you're done helping to clean up your own damn mess".

I don't think Anders wanted to be seperated from Justice that much by that point (if he was even Anders).

Notice how Anders and Justice speak in perfect sinergy. Before that, Justice talking was always disconnected from what Anders was saying, who doesn't even remember what latter was saying. Their actions were also disconnected.

By that point, I think they became one.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[LobselVith8]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't  know. I never had much to do with him after Act I and refused all his quests.

He says "And if I pay for that with my life... I pay. Perhaps then Justice would at least be free." He thinks he's going to die, and that it'll seperate him from justice. If you decide to kill him and tell him he has to pay for what he's done, he responds "I know."

[The Angry One]

See this is what I'm talking about, Anders makes the situation black and white and some people just assume he's right when it's just not that simple.