1927 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
That's just rhetoric. Like it or not there are legitimate reasons for containing mages.
Kirkwall went overboard, but Anders' methods aren't the solution.

No there aren't.  There are legimate reaons for strongly regulating mages but that's a far cry from what you suggest.  Not even the Andrastians wanted to lock up mages until a dotty Ambrosia II wanted to break up a magical worker's strike with an unjustified (even per her Knight Vigalent) Exalted March.

-Polaris

You do realise it's the mage who wanted to go to the Circles right?

"The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of
the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the
Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal
society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own
closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human
history.
--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar."

The alternative was being slaughered to a man (which is what Ambrosia II really wanted to do).  So of course they wanted to get away from her!

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sure but that wasn't all he wanted.  He told Hawke the very technical truth, but only a part of it.  That's the most effective way to lie ever invented.

No, he doesn't tell Hawke "technical truth". The technical truth was he's intended to blow up the Chantry. The potential death is merely optional byproduct, not his actual goal.

He lies, simple as that.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

Probably the same right the Chantry had when they imprisoned mages across the continent and decided to install a dictatorship for the mages to live in through their Circles.

You conveniently forget that the Mages went willingly into the first Circles, after a negotiation.  The Chantry didn't "impose" it on them.

You are conveniently forgetting that:

1.  The mages did so in lieu of being slaughtered.  Divine Ambrosia had to be talked out of slaughtering every mage in the name of the Maker lest you forget.

2.  The entry was written as Chantry propoganda by a Chantry Sister (Petrine IIRC)

-Polari9s

So now codex entries aren't always accurate? 

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

See this is what I'm talking about, Anders makes the situation black and white and some people just assume he's right when it's just not that simple.

Some things are black and white and unjustly imprisoning people for who and what they are rather than what they have done is evil.  Period.

That said, I don't hesitate to call Anders a terrorist and I don't hesitate to execute him for his crimes....but he is right.  His methode however, is also evil.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

Probably the same right the Chantry had when they imprisoned mages across the continent and decided to install a dictatorship for the mages to live in through their Circles.

You conveniently forget that the Mages went willingly into the first Circles, after a negotiation.  The Chantry didn't "impose" it on them.

You are conveniently forgetting that:

1.  The mages did so in lieu of being slaughtered.  Divine Ambrosia had to be talked out of slaughtering every mage in the name of the Maker lest you forget.

2.  The entry was written as Chantry propoganda by a Chantry Sister (Petrine IIRC)

-Polari9s

So now codex entries aren't always accurate? 

WoG on this very thread says that codex entries aren't always accurate.

-Polaris

[stobie]

If there are valid reasons to lock up mages before they do anything wrong, then there are also valid reasons to lock up any little kid who is quick with daggers, or likes to swing swords around. I'm not sure why so many people are giving the Chantry such a pass. Petrice didn't come out of nothing - the Grand Cleric was warned several times about the abuses under her control. They're just as much zealots as Anders becomes, and the only real difference is that they have the power.

[Lianaar]

TJPags wrote...
He's one man, imposing his views on every other mage, and making the choice for each and every one of them.
Hardly the acts of someone who claims to be acting for "freedom".

How many people are mages in the population? Some percentage value, let's have a large estimate: 20% That would mean every 5th child born is a mage. Probably way too high a number, but let's presume this.

Anders made a lots of presumptions:
- all mages support his idea of freedom
- only the Chantry can bring peace
- blowing up the chantry will get the support of 80% of people
- who don't matter anyway, as they are not mages.

He is so possessed by the 20%, that he doesn't even consider how unjust his actions are to the 80%.
He unleashed a war on them. Will blood mages, abominations and apostates not harm the civilians? What of mage-hunting self-justified templars? Will they care if a few pesants die in the process of disposing of a threat? I can hardly see them caring.
"For the greater good" in terms of Anders meant "We know better for us, and you don't matter."

Aside from him not having the right to talk for all mages, what angered me was the ignorance and neutrality he had toward non-mages. He hated what Elthina did to mages by being passive, but he did way worse to non-mages. Elthina at least thought about the options and made a decision based on those information. Anders simply didn't care. He expected everyone to care about mages, but he never returned the favor with thinking on non-mages.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sure but that wasn't all he wanted.  He told Hawke the very technical truth, but only a part of it.  That's the most effective way to lie ever invented.

No, he doesn't tell Hawke "technical truth". The technical truth was he's intended to blow up the Chantry. The potential death is merely optional byproduct, not his actual goal.

He lies, simple as that.

He deceives you, yes.  That is not the same as technically lying.  Anders believes you will kill him for what he feels he has to do, and that will free him.  It's true (to the best of his knowledge) from a certain point of view....

-Polaris

[Lianaar]

stobie wrote...

If there are valid reasons to lock up mages before they do anything wrong, then there are also valid reasons to lock up any little kid who is quick with daggers, or likes to swing swords around. I'm not sure why so many people are giving the Chantry such a pass. Petrice didn't come out of nothing - the Grand Cleric was warned several times about the abuses under her control. They're just as much zealots as Anders becomes, and the only real difference is that they have the power.

You can prevent a kid from harming others with a dagger by removing the dagger. You can ensure a child doesn't blow up his companions but making explosives unavailable for him. But how in earth do you make a child not succumb to a demon or toss a fireball out of lack of knowledge or simply fear? You can not.

Accordingly a child being good with explosives/daggers/poison is not the same as a child being a mage.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lianaar wrote...

TJPags wrote...
He's one man, imposing his views on every other mage, and making the choice for each and every one of them.
Hardly the acts of someone who claims to be acting for "freedom".

How many people are mages in the population? Some percentage value, let's have a large estimate: 20% That would mean every 5th child born is a mage. Probably way too high a number, but let's presume this.

Way too high a number. If there is one Templar for every mage (it's probably more than that that), that means that 40% of the population is Templar / mage.

I wouldn't put the percentage of mages above 5%. Even that sounds too high.

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Of course it was.

Anders isn't a state, but he was part of an underground movement of mages who wanted to be free that was broken down to the point that he appeared to be the last man left, likely shielded by the fact that Hawke is the Champion (a point made explicit if Hawke romances Anders).

So what right do he or his little movement have to impose a war for "freedom" on all mages everywhere through terror?

Probably the same right the Chantry had when they imprisoned mages across the continent and decided to install a dictatorship for the mages to live in through their Circles.

You conveniently forget that the Mages went willingly into the first Circles, after a negotiation.  The Chantry didn't "impose" it on them.

You are conveniently forgetting that:

1.  The mages did so in lieu of being slaughtered.  Divine Ambrosia had to be talked out of slaughtering every mage in the name of the Maker lest you forget.

2.  The entry was written as Chantry propoganda by a Chantry Sister (Petrine IIRC)

-Polari9s

So now codex entries aren't always accurate? 

WoG on this very thread says that codex entries aren't always accurate.

-Polaris

Indeed.  I told you that yesterday.

So tell me exactly how the first Circles were created?

[stobie]

Lianaar wrote...

stobie wrote...

If there are valid reasons to lock up mages before they do anything wrong, then there are also valid reasons to lock up any little kid who is quick with daggers, or likes to swing swords around. I'm not sure why so many people are giving the Chantry such a pass. Petrice didn't come out of nothing - the Grand Cleric was warned several times about the abuses under her control. They're just as much zealots as Anders becomes, and the only real difference is that they have the power.

You can prevent a kid from harming others with a dagger by removing the dagger. You can ensure a child doesn't blow up his companions but making explosives unavailable for him. But how in earth do you make a child not succumb to a demon or toss a fireball out of lack of knowledge or simply fear? You can not.

Accordingly a child being good with explosives/daggers/poison is not the same as a child being a mage.

You teach them, as you would any child?    Locking them up and telling them they're cursed is just plain evil.

[Lianaar]

TJPags wrote...So now codex entries aren't always accurate? 

Codex entries are not the universal truth proclaimed by the writers of the game. They are intellectual properties of characters, meaning they are filtered by given characters' views, feelings, bias. Accordingly they can even contradict each other, just like scientists and historicians can contradict each other in writing. It is rather realistic.

[ddv.rsa]

I'd place it at well under 1%.

[IanPolaris]

Lianaar wrote...

Aside from him not having the right to talk for all mages, what angered me was the ignorance and neutrality he had toward non-mages. He hated what Elthina did to mages by being passive, but he did way worse to non-mages. Elthina at least thought about the options and made a decision based on those information. Anders simply didn't care. He expected everyone to care about mages, but he never returned the favor with thinking on non-mages.

Even my non-mage pro-templar Hawke is deeply angered by Grand Cleric Elthina (and while he tries to hide it, Knight Captain Cullen is also very much not a member of her fan club).

The damn woman refused to do her damn job and control the abuses of power from her immediate subordinates not only with Knight-Commander Meridith but also with Mother Petrice.  It's only after you confront the Grand Cleric with blood on the young mother's hands and a imminent war with the Qunari acting with the full authority of the Viscount does the Grand Cleric make any action at all, and it's pretty lame-sauce action at that.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

He deceives you, yes.  That is not the same as technically lying.  Anders believes you will kill him for what he feels he has to do, and that will free him.  It's true (to the best of his knowledge) from a certain point of view....

Honestly, it's lawyer-level of spinning now, isn't it?

We don't even know if he actually believes you will kill him -- he certainly doesn't tell anything like that to you outright that i can remember nor calls to be killed, just tells you to "do whatever you want" with him. Which struck me more as defiant "it doesn't matter what you do with me, you can't reverse what i did" than anything else.

This concept of believing that Hawke would for sure kill him just happens to make the "well he isn't really lying to you" line of defense workable.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[TJPags]

Lianaar wrote...

TJPags wrote...
He's one man, imposing his views on every other mage, and making the choice for each and every one of them.
Hardly the acts of someone who claims to be acting for "freedom".

How many people are mages in the population? Some percentage value, let's have a large estimate: 20% That would mean every 5th child born is a mage. Probably way too high a number, but let's presume this.

Anders made a lots of presumptions:
- all mages support his idea of freedom
- only the Chantry can bring peace
- blowing up the chantry will get the support of 80% of people
- who don't matter anyway, as they are not mages.

He is so possessed by the 20%, that he doesn't even consider how unjust his actions are to the 80%.
He unleashed a war on them. Will blood mages, abominations and apostates not harm the civilians? What of mage-hunting self-justified templars? Will they care if a few pesants die in the process of disposing of a threat? I can hardly see them caring.
"For the greater good" in terms of Anders meant "We know better for us, and you don't matter."

Aside from him not having the right to talk for all mages, what angered me was the ignorance and neutrality he had toward non-mages. He hated what Elthina did to mages by being passive, but he did way worse to non-mages. Elthina at least thought about the options and made a decision based on those information. Anders simply didn't care. He expected everyone to care about mages, but he never returned the favor with thinking on non-mages.

All true.  And this is why i think he fits the title terrorist so well - he ignores the viewpoint of anyone who doesn't agree with him, be they mages or non-mages.

[ddv.rsa]

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

Aside from him not having the right to talk for all mages, what angered me was the ignorance and neutrality he had toward non-mages. He hated what Elthina did to mages by being passive, but he did way worse to non-mages. Elthina at least thought about the options and made a decision based on those information. Anders simply didn't care. He expected everyone to care about mages, but he never returned the favor with thinking on non-mages.

Even my non-mage pro-templar Hawke is deeply angered by Grand Cleric Elthina (and while he tries to hide it, Knight Captain Cullen is also very much not a member of her fan club).

The damn woman refused to do her damn job and control the abuses of power from her immediate subordinates not only with Knight-Commander Meridith but also with Mother Petrice.  It's only after you confront the Grand Cleric with blood on the young mother's hands and a imminent war with the Qunari acting with the full authority of the Viscount does the Grand Cleric make any action at all, and it's pretty lame-sauce action at that.

-Polaris

And again you ignore the fact that she was doing something. THAT'S WHY ANDERS BLEW HER UP.
Why do you think Orsino was going to see her? Why do you think Meredith panicked and tried to stop him?

Like I've said, Elthina had more than the mages to think about. The entire city was at risk if she made the wrong move and the Templars and mages started fighting.

[stobie]

That's the scene that turned me! I was peevish with Anders at being willing to kill Thrask, & being so one-sided. (in fairness, that's true with most of them. Maybe people are defined by their blind spots.) But when that horrible Petrice kills the kid, has tormented the Qunari, who seem pretty innocent. (and if they're not, they haven't done anything *yet,* so they are technically innocent) - and then she says something about the 'young mother erring in judgment.' That was unbelievably horrific. I wanted to attack *her* at that point. Maybe it's just her weakness, but she ignores a lot of abuse, which she could have and should have addressed.

I liked that Varrick says the war has many causes. I wish, along with Anders, he'd mentioned that old woman, too.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

I don't think either would hesitate to condemn Anders for his act.  I certainly haven't.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't side with the mages anyway given what Meridith does afterwards (and how the Chantry sits back and lets it happen).  Meridith neatly shoots down Wynne's one argument for staying loyal to the chantry, i.e. they'll never let us go.  They' kill us first.  Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

Even the Libertarians didn't have this mind. Only the ultra-radical  resolutionists, who broke from the the Libertarians that are in comparision more moderate,  would probably be happy with what happened.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 08:59 .

[stobie]

The Angry One wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

Aside from him not having the right to talk for all mages, what angered me was the ignorance and neutrality he had toward non-mages. He hated what Elthina did to mages by being passive, but he did way worse to non-mages. Elthina at least thought about the options and made a decision based on those information. Anders simply didn't care. He expected everyone to care about mages, but he never returned the favor with thinking on non-mages.

Even my non-mage pro-templar Hawke is deeply angered by Grand Cleric Elthina (and while he tries to hide it, Knight Captain Cullen is also very much not a member of her fan club).

The damn woman refused to do her damn job and control the abuses of power from her immediate subordinates not only with Knight-Commander Meridith but also with Mother Petrice.  It's only after you confront the Grand Cleric with blood on the young mother's hands and a imminent war with the Qunari acting with the full authority of the Viscount does the Grand Cleric make any action at all, and it's pretty lame-sauce action at that.

-Polaris

And again you ignore the fact that she was doing something. THAT'S WHY ANDERS BLEW HER UP.
Why do you think Orsino was going to see her? Why do you think Meredith panicked and tried to stop him?

Like I've said, Elthina had more than the mages to think about. The entire city was at risk if she made the wrong move and the Templars and mages started fighting.

Then she's failed at that, too.  She should have brought Petrice & the Alrick guy up in front of everyone & condemned them utterly, and she should have done it immediately.  She MADE the entire city 'at risk',' more than anyone else, because *she* could have done something to stop it.

[Lianaar]

stobie wrote...
You teach them, as you would any child?    Locking them up and telling them they're cursed is just plain evil.

You ensure they are safe and teach them. = Circle
The Circle's goal is to ensure that mages are safe from others and themselves, while educating them on what to do with magic and how to handle it. To teach them how to cope with the nightmares, with the demons talking to them. How to resist temptation and why. This was the base concept of the circle. And you can really not expect farmer father and tailor mother to educate the child on demonology and the Fade or how to weave the magical energies, or even pay a school where such is possible.

Evil? It is a matter of perspective. Should said uncared for mage child blow up next to my house and kill my family purely accidentally, I bet, I wouldn't find prior education for him in the circle that evil. What if you have 5 kids and one of them is a mage. Do you have any idea what risks you put your family through? And if said mage again, without ill intent, happens to kill your 4 other kids? How do you justify that? 

It is not an easy decision, on either way. You can not just brush it off saying: oh, but circle is slavery and evil. Because it is not that simple at all. 

There are some interesting experiments on people and what harm they would be willing to cause to others in order to ensure the safety os people. Mages are a hazard. Not because they are evil, unethical, sinful, malicious, but because they are gifted/cursed with a power that has the ultimate ability of causing harm and can not be removed. This aspect needs to be addressed somehow. People fear mages, just like they fear floods. If they learn what they can do against floods, they'll fear floods less. But what can they do against mages, if they go insane on them? Nothing. A common village inhabitant is powerless, chanceless against a mage. 

It is not that different from today either. In many countries people can simply have guns without any paper or proof. And when your  home is rushed in with people holding guns, you are powerless, so you fear guns. Accordingly in many countries they decided you need a certain age, a certain paper, licence to have guns. And others went further saying that only those working in state acknowledged militant organisations are allowed to have guns.
But you can not do that with magic, can you? You can not prevent people from having it. You can not tell them, I take it from you now and once you prove your capability of handling this weapon, I'll return it....

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

I don't think either would hesitate to condemn Anders for his act.  I certainly haven't.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't side with the mages anyway given what Meridith does afterwards (and how the Chantry sits back and lets it happen).  Meridith neatly shoots down Wynne's one argument for staying loyal to the chantry, i.e. they'll never let us go.  They' kill us first.  Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.

-Polaris

You want to explain that?  There WAS no Chantry, either to sit and let it happen, or to stop it.