1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Lianaar]

IanPolaris wrote...Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.
-Polaris

Meredith is not the Chantry, nor the Templars. She is just one person. Even templars revolted against her. Just like Anders is just a mage. Generally neither templars nor mages will be judged based on a single person.

[IanPolaris]

The Angry One wrote...

And again you ignore the fact that she was doing something. THAT'S WHY ANDERS BLEW HER UP.
Why do you think Orsino was going to see her? Why do you think Meredith panicked and tried to stop him?

No she wasn't.  She would give a calm platitude. Completely ignore abuses of chantry authoriy, and then the pressure would just ratchet up another cycle.  Orisin went to her because there was no one else that had the authority to tell Meridith to pack it in....and once more the woman refused to do her damn job.  It's obvious from the start of Act 2 that Meridith is a fruit-loop that grossly abuses her position.  Elthina should have FIRED her.  She has that authority.

Like I've said, Elthina had more than the mages to think about. The entire city was at risk if she made the wrong move and the Templars and mages started fighting.

Yes, like the Templars seizing political authority in defiance of Chantry Law?  Hmmm?

-POlaris

[IanPolaris]

Lianaar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.
-Polaris

Meredith is not the Chantry, nor the Templars. She is just one person. Even templars revolted against her. Just like Anders is just a mage. Generally neither templars nor mages will be judged based on a single person.

You are wrong.  Meridith becomes a symbol of the Templars post Kirkwell, and her abuses in the eyes of mages becomes the absuses of all templars.  Varic pretty much says exactly this to Cassandra.

-Polaris

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Like I've said, Elthina had more than the mages to think about. The entire city was at risk if she made the wrong move and the Templars and mages started fighting.

Yes, like the Templars seizing political authority in defiance of Chantry Law?  Hmmm?

-POlaris

There's nothing against Chantry law saying a Templar cannot serve as the de-facto head of a region.  Only that a mage cannot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lianaar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.
-Polaris

Meredith is not the Chantry, nor the Templars. She is just one person. Even templars revolted against her. Just like Anders is just a mage. Generally neither templars nor mages will be judged based on a single person.

The common people and the common mages will think differently. Even if they are unreasonable about it. It's realistic.

We do not fully now how the mage revolution (which Gaider apaprently hinted that it may not be what we think it is) happened though. Was it mages rising up on their own? Was it Templars hearing what happened and becoming more repressive? A mix of both? 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 09:06 .

[The Angry One]

IanPolaris wrote...

No she wasn't.  She would give a calm platitude. Completely ignore abuses of chantry authoriy, and then the pressure would just ratchet up another cycle.  Orisin went to her because there was no one else that had the authority to tell Meridith to pack it in....and once more the woman refused to do her damn job.  It's obvious from the start of Act 2 that Meridith is a fruit-loop that grossly abuses her position.  Elthina should have FIRED her.  She has that authority.
-POlaris

You assume this, even though Meredith was going completel ape-crazy over the idea and trying to stop Orsino.
Clearly, she feared the Elthina was going to take a stance, and so did Anders.

[stobie]

If that's the case, then smart people are also a hazard. Strong people are a hazard. As for being possessed, given that even templars are shown to be possessed, that seems kind of weak. We've seen a possessed *cat.* The desire for power is a threat, too, none of which can be removed by conventional means. All of that can cause mass destruction - no more or less than a mage. Mages are powerful, but they're also fragile. Loghain wasn't a mage, but he certainly did plenty of damage (unless you happen to side with him, in which case doing damage can't be such a priority.)

[AshenEndymion]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lianaar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.
-Polaris

Meredith is not the Chantry, nor the Templars. She is just one person. Even templars revolted against her. Just like Anders is just a mage. Generally neither templars nor mages will be judged based on a single person.

You are wrong.  Meridith becomes a symbol of the Templars post Kirkwell, and her abuses in the eyes of mages becomes the absuses of all templars.  Varic pretty much says exactly this to Cassandra.

-Polaris

Then by this logic, Anders becomes a symbol of the mages post Kirkwall.  His actions against the Chantry in the eyes of every Andrastian becomes the acts of all mages.  Thus, any action against the mages (such as killing them all) is purely justified.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

I don't think either would hesitate to condemn Anders for his act.  I certainly haven't.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't side with the mages anyway given what Meridith does afterwards (and how the Chantry sits back and lets it happen).  Meridith neatly shoots down Wynne's one argument for staying loyal to the chantry, i.e. they'll never let us go.  They' kill us first.  Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.

-Polaris

Annulments have happened before, I don't get what the big deal is now. Why do they all go nuts? If Hawke sides with the Templars and all the mages are dead, how does anyone know whether or not it was justified? 

If the fact that it was unjustified is such common knowledge, why do the common people and templars consider Hawke a hero? Shouldn't they consider him/her an extremist who provoked a world war?

From Varrics epilogue, no matter which side you choose, he says they are emboldened by the fact that the "templars can be defied". I assume that means the death of Meredith.

[Lianaar]

IanPolaris wrote...


Even my non-mage pro-templar Hawke is deeply angered by Grand Cleric Elthina (and while he tries to hide it, Knight Captain Cullen is also very much not a member of her fan club).

The damn woman refused to do her damn job and control the abuses of power from her immediate subordinates not only with Knight-Commander Meridith but also with Mother Petrice.  It's only after you confront the Grand Cleric with blood on the young mother's hands and a imminent war with the Qunari acting with the full authority of the Viscount does the Grand Cleric make any action at all, and it's pretty lame-sauce action at that.

-Polaris

Arguable. It depends on what you percieve her goal and her duty.
I think we do lack serious information on her involvement and activity in the matter. Judging her based on the information we have is way too biased.
What we know is that she is aware of some issues and that she made thoughts about it. We know that she stepped up when war was to break out and sent both Orsino and Meredith back to their corners. She was worried about people in Kirkwall and she was willing to sacrifice her own life for them and peace. She didn't want to force people into the Chantry and wanted to preserve law. This is all we know of her. We know nothing of how much she tried to achieve with the Divine or not, if she was trying to find other ways or not. We simply have no information. We can fill out blanks with our imagination, but that won't really do justice to her, nor will it be good base for an argument, considering we make up different stories.

What I wished to say is, that it is ironic, that Anders killed her for something he commited too.

[IanPolaris]

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

I don't think either would hesitate to condemn Anders for his act.  I certainly haven't.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't side with the mages anyway given what Meridith does afterwards (and how the Chantry sits back and lets it happen).  Meridith neatly shoots down Wynne's one argument for staying loyal to the chantry, i.e. they'll never let us go.  They' kill us first.  Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.

-Polaris

You want to explain that?  There WAS no Chantry, either to sit and let it happen, or to stop it.

I'll be happy do.  Grand Cleric Elthina allowed not only KC Meridith but Mother Petrice to flout and even break chantry laws for years with no real consequence other than an occassional scolding.  After the Kirkwell incident it takes years for the Chanty Seekers to finally get their head out of their collective posteriors and actually bother to find out what really happened rather than blame all mages and take the Templars (who also are in revolt) unvarnished word.

So yes, the Chantry sat back and let it happen.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Then by this logic, Anders becomes a symbol of the mages post Kirkwall.  His actions against the Chantry in the eyes of every Andrastian becomes the acts of all mages.  Thus, any action against the mages (such as killing them all) is purely justified.

To say nothing of the First Enchanter being outed as a blood mage and monster.
And don't tell me nobody witnessed that or somehow didn't notice the giant harvester corpse in the Gallows.

[Lianaar]

IanPolaris wrote...You are wrong.  Meridith becomes a symbol of the Templars post Kirkwell, and her abuses in the eyes of mages becomes the absuses of all templars.  Varic pretty much says exactly this to Cassandra.
-Polaris

This is a presumption and not a fact. Sorry, but we can not know how people in Thedas will react. We'll likely learn of that later in dlcs or with the da3. But really, making such assumption is just claiming you know the cultural aspects of all Thedas. And I don't think even Mr. Gaider, who made up Thedas knows that much yet.

[stobie]

Who are the Templars revolting against, and why? Is that ever clear? The chantry has lost control over both, but I got lost at the end about who was fighting who.

There's also some confusion about who can be turned into an abomination. Your party members can all be swayed - all sorts of people seem to fall prey to them. There were possessed templars all over the place, & as I remember, they were just as hard to fight as a mage. (harder - no chance of one shotting them)

[Pzykozis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

Even the Libertarians didn't have this mind. Only the ultra-radical  resolutionists, who broke from the the Libertarians that are in comparision more moderate,  would probably be happy with what happened.

Except all mage circles (as said by Varric) have now rebelled... so it's not like Anders forced this and noone wanted it, the rest of the circles (even the relatively lax ferelden circle) have rebelled.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...
Annulments have happened before, I don't get what the big deal is now. Why do they all go nuts? If Hawke sides with the Templars and all the mages are dead, how does anyone know whether or not it was justified? 

Two reasons:

1.  This was the perhaps the least justifiable annulment on record done under extremely sketchy legality (whatever DG says about the technical legality) by a woman who was shown later to be a complete fruit-loop possessed by a lyrium idol.  That's about as bad as it gets.

2.  The anger has slowly been building between the two sides for a thousand years.  This was simply the final spark.

If the fact that it was unjustified is such common knowledge, why do the common people and templars consider Hawke a hero? Shouldn't they consider him/her an extremist who provoked a world war?

The Chantry certainly does until Varic tells his story.

From Varrics epilogue, no matter which side you choose, he says they are emboldened by the fact that the "templars can be defied". I assume that means the death of Meredith.

Not only was Meridith killed, but the Champion survived to tell the tale.  That does put a serious crack in the myth of Templar invunerability.

-Polaris

[stobie]

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Then by this logic, Anders becomes a symbol of the mages post Kirkwall.  His actions against the Chantry in the eyes of every Andrastian becomes the acts of all mages.  Thus, any action against the mages (such as killing them all) is purely justified.

To say nothing of the First Enchanter being outed as a blood mage and monster.
And don't tell me nobody witnessed that or somehow didn't notice the giant harvester corpse in the Gallows.

But that scene plays out differently depending on who you side with.  In *my* version, he goes crazy seeing his dead allies, and can't face the war to come, so he falls back on blood magic, which presumably every mage has heard about in one form or another.  I thought that was part of the 'subjective' story that we get. 

[TJPags]

IanPolaris wrote...

TJPags wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

I don't think either would hesitate to condemn Anders for his act.  I certainly haven't.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't side with the mages anyway given what Meridith does afterwards (and how the Chantry sits back and lets it happen).  Meridith neatly shoots down Wynne's one argument for staying loyal to the chantry, i.e. they'll never let us go.  They' kill us first.  Meridith shows that the chantry wants to kill them anyway.  That's why ALL the circles have risen up against the Chantry.

-Polaris

You want to explain that?  There WAS no Chantry, either to sit and let it happen, or to stop it.

I'll be happy do.  Grand Cleric Elthina allowed not only KC Meridith but Mother Petrice to flout and even break chantry laws for years with no real consequence other than an occassional scolding.  After the Kirkwell incident it takes years for the Chanty Seekers to finally get their head out of their collective posteriors and actually bother to find out what really happened rather than blame all mages and take the Templars (who also are in revolt) unvarnished word.

So yes, the Chantry sat back and let it happen.

-Polaris

More speculation.  You have no idea what the Chantry did post-event and pre-Cass with Varric.  Perhaps they sought answers? ZPerhaps they tried to find the people who were involved?  Perhaps they sought people who knew something?  Perhaps thats why they dragged Varric in there?

No, you just assume the Chantry did absolutely nothing for 3 years.  That Cullen never sent a report.  That nobody else did.  That this report came to the Divine and she ordered tea.  That reports got to other Circles and they played cards.  That nobody tried to go to Kirkwall and find out what happened and how to fix it.  They all just sat around having picnics until every Circle in Thedas revolted, and only then decided to go find some random dwarf in Kirkwall and ask him about Hawke.

You're very quick to make assumptions with almost no basis behind them.  Which is fine.  But then you state them as fact.  Which is not fine.

[IanPolaris]

Lianaar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...You are wrong.  Meridith becomes a symbol of the Templars post Kirkwell, and her abuses in the eyes of mages becomes the absuses of all templars.  Varic pretty much says exactly this to Cassandra.
-Polaris

This is a presumption and not a fact. Sorry, but we can not know how people in Thedas will react. We'll likely learn of that later in dlcs or with the da3. But really, making such assumption is just claiming you know the cultural aspects of all Thedas. And I don't think even Mr. Gaider, who made up Thedas knows that much yet.

It is a fact at least according to Varic.  He pretty much explains that the ALL the circles rise up in response to this symbolism.

-Polaris

[Mahtisonni]

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Then by this logic, Anders becomes a symbol of the mages post Kirkwall.  His actions against the Chantry in the eyes of every Andrastian becomes the acts of all mages.  Thus, any action against the mages (such as killing them all) is purely justified.

To say nothing of the First Enchanter being outed as a blood mage and monster.
And don't tell me nobody witnessed that or somehow didn't notice the giant harvester corpse in the Gallows.

Well both sides will try to use Orsino as a point to prove they're right.
Mage symphatizers will say that the actions of templars forced Orsino to blood magic.
Mage haters will say that the because of Orsino being a blood mage Meredith was right to keep such a tight hold over mages.

Personally, I think that if the Grand Cleric did her job then this could have been avoided.

Modifié par Mahtisonni, 03 avril 2011 - 09:18 .

[AshenEndymion]

Pzykozis wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

Even the Libertarians didn't have this mind. Only the ultra-radical  resolutionists, who broke from the the Libertarians that are in comparision more moderate,  would probably be happy with what happened.

Except all mage circles (as said by Varric) have now rebelled... so it's not like Anders forced this and noone wanted it, the rest of the circles (even the relatively lax ferelden circle) have rebelled.

But what is the reason for the rebellion?  Is it because they don't like their treatment?  Or is it because the growing concensus amongst Andrastians, after a mage blew up a Chantry, is: "The mages are too much of a danger and a threat to us.  The Rite of Annulment must be applied to all Circles, so we can start anew"  and the mages decided to be preemptive?

We know that the sequence in Kirkwall sparked the event.  But we have no idea why each Circle began rebelling...

[The Angry One]

stobie wrote...

Who are the Templars revolting against, and why? Is that ever clear? The chantry has lost control over both, but I got lost at the end about who was fighting who.

Against the Chantry, apparently.
Perhaps Templars tried to clamp down on mages excessively, the Chantry refused and the Templars said screw you and seceeded.

There's also some confusion about who can be turned into an abomination. Your party members can all be swayed - all sorts of people seem to fall prey to them.

Making a deal with a demon doesn't equal in becoming an abomination. At least, not all the time.

There were possessed templars all over the place, & as I remember, they were just as hard to fight as a mage. (harder - no chance of one shotting them)

Regular people can be possessed by a demon if a blood mage forces it into them or can be controlled by demons who are physically outside the Fade.

Modifié par The Angry One, 03 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[Lianaar]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The common people and the common mages will think differently. Even if they are unreasonable about it. It's realistic.

I am unsure of that. How many people did you hear saying that the former knight commander was not willing to act against the political power and was hung for it in the Gallows? 
I didn't hear a single person reflect on it. Why? It is a totally good symbol for where the Templars should be and what they should not do. Or do, depending on your side.

The question is how the news fly. And rumor is a nasty beast. Are you sure Anders name will be mentioned at all? Will it say: the mages in Kirkwall revolted and blew up the chantry and Orsino was possesed by a demon? Or will it say, that the Champion kicked out the Qunary then blew up the Chantry to take them out of the picture, then killed both circle and templar leaders to seize power and have no opponents. I bet some will make a real martyr of Elthina saying she knew what will happen but wanted to show good example by sticking around for people and peace.

Common people will listen to their own fears and presumptions and whoever supports their believes the most, they'll listen to them. So I would not say they'll have accurate information on the matter whatsoever.

[stobie]

Is Varrick's ending speech any different if you sided with the templars? I assumed it was about the same - these events sparked a war, no matter what the champion does.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pzykozis wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

I agree. What would mages like Wynne and Irving think of the situation Anders forced on them?

Even the Libertarians didn't have this mind. Only the ultra-radical  resolutionists, who broke from the the Libertarians that are in comparision more moderate,  would probably be happy with what happened.

Except all mage circles (as said by Varric) have now rebelled... so it's not like Anders forced this and noone wanted it, the rest of the circles (even the relatively lax ferelden circle) have rebelled.

We do not know exactly how that happened.

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Aren't the mages venturing into an
alternative to Chantry control with the continential revolution of the
Circles of Magi?

"Continental revolution"? You might be getting ahead of yourself, there. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

And even if they did, it doesnt mean they are happy about it. They were forced into a corner, which is what Anders wanted. Or that they would have done it.