1927 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

stobie wrote...

But that scene plays out differently depending on who you side with.  In *my* version, he goes crazy seeing his dead allies, and can't face the war to come, so he falls back on blood magic, which presumably every mage has heard about in one form or another.  I thought that was part of the 'subjective' story that we get. 

How is that any better? It is way worse in my opinion.

That he uses blood magic to transform into a monster in the first case should be enough.

[IanPolaris]

stobie wrote...

Who are the Templars revolting against, and why? Is that ever clear? The chantry has lost control over both, but I got lost at the end about who was fighting who.

There's also some confusion about who can be turned into an abomination. Your party members can all be swayed - all sorts of people seem to fall prey to them. There were possessed templars all over the place, & as I remember, they were just as hard to fight as a mage. (harder - no chance of one shotting them)

That's because the Chantry stupidly decided to put a circle of magi in a place where the veil is ridiculously thin.  In the old ruins in Kirkwell, demons can (and frequently do) cross over and can dominate (even possess with help) even non-mages such as Lady Harriman.

That isn't the normal case.

-Polaris

[The Angry One]

stobie wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Then by this logic, Anders becomes a symbol of the mages post Kirkwall.  His actions against the Chantry in the eyes of every Andrastian becomes the acts of all mages.  Thus, any action against the mages (such as killing them all) is purely justified.

To say nothing of the First Enchanter being outed as a blood mage and monster.
And don't tell me nobody witnessed that or somehow didn't notice the giant harvester corpse in the Gallows.

But that scene plays out differently depending on who you side with.  In *my* version, he goes crazy seeing his dead allies, and can't face the war to come, so he falls back on blood magic, which presumably every mage has heard about in one form or another.  I thought that was part of the 'subjective' story that we get. 

Like I've said before, there's just no way he pulled that kind of blood magic out of his ass. He had to be a practicing blood mage for years, and his cooperation with Quentin proves it. He was lying to us all along.

[Lianaar]

IanPolaris wrote...
It is a fact at least according to Varic.  He pretty much explains that the ALL the circles rise up in response to this symbolism.
-Polaris

To what symbolism? Did they revolt because one insane knight commander caused havok? I hardly think so.
If they revolted, it is because they wanted to revolt anyway and they saw it is possible to do. It had little to nothing to do with Meredith's person. Now if someone takes her name up and puts it on a flag and then starts to go killing mages? Then yes, then her name does become a symbol. However we can not judge the future action of characters that were never introduced to us.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lianaar wrote...
Common people will listen to their own fears and presumptions and whoever supports their believes the most, they'll listen to them. So I would not say they'll have accurate information on the matter whatsoever.

Exactly, that's my point. The end result is probably a polirization. And I think the vast majority would side against mages that they've always feared and will probably fear more. They will not be basing it on full information, and when do the masses ever do?

Flemeth: "we believe what we want to believe".

[Mr.House]

You just don't pull blood magic out of thin air. The stuff Orsino does is something that he had to have learned and studied for years. You just don't cut your wrist and go "Yay my blood is magic now!"

[Mnemnosyne]

The Angry One wrote...

And again you ignore the fact that she was doing something. THAT'S WHY ANDERS BLEW HER UP.
Why do you think Orsino was going to see her? Why do you think Meredith panicked and tried to stop him?

Like I've said, Elthina had more than the mages to think about. The entire city was at risk if she made the wrong move and the Templars and mages started fighting.

I disagree, she wasn't doing anything.  She could have done something, and that's why Anders blew her up, to make sure she didn't, finally, after all this time, get off her lazy ass and take the action she should have taken almost a decade ago: either get rid of Meredith or make her follow the actual rules.

I do not believe for one second that if the Grand Cleric relieved Meredith of her duty on the completely fair and legal grounds that she has allowed and/or ordered mages to be made tranquil even after they have passed their harrowing, that the majority of the templars would side with Meredith.  I am completely certain that if she were to appoint Cullen to be in charge or whatever, all but a tiny number of die-hard Meredith supporters would follow orders and do their job.

It's not even about the mages, in the end.  It's about a representative of the Chantry grossly abusing her power and violating the Chantry's own rules and regulations to a massive and blatant degree.

[stobie]

But your own character can be a blood mage, and given that it was annoyingly powerful (so as to make the game not so fun, I thought), then desperate mages would be more likely to seek it out. The theme of it seemed to be that the more people are repressed, the more they will seek out extreme measures. In that case, the people doing the repressing should hold some of the responsibility.

I also thought both Meredith & Orsino are supposed to be flawed, neither in the right, so that nothing you choose is really right. Their fears & weaknesses inspired *both* of them to seek out whatever power they could. In his, blood magic, & in hers, some weird lyrium sword. (which makes her fly through the sky like Puma Man, apparently.)

[The Angry One]

I'll just point out.. how many mages did it take for the Ferelden circle to revolt in DA:O?
Uldred and a few of his cronies brought down the entire circle, the majority of mages were caught in this whether they liked it or not.

This could be the situation after DA2. A few malcontent blood mages in each circle bring them under their control, and the majority of mages can either stay and serve the rebels or flee and get killed anyway because the Templars are on full mage-oppression mode after Kirkwall.

[The Angry One]

Koyasha wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And again you ignore the fact that she was doing something. THAT'S WHY ANDERS BLEW HER UP.
Why do you think Orsino was going to see her? Why do you think Meredith panicked and tried to stop him?

Like I've said, Elthina had more than the mages to think about. The entire city was at risk if she made the wrong move and the Templars and mages started fighting.

I disagree, she wasn't doing anything.  She could have done something, and that's why Anders blew her up, to make sure she didn't, finally, after all this time, get off her lazy ass and take the action she should have taken almost a decade ago: either get rid of Meredith or make her follow the actual rules.

I do not believe for one second that if the Grand Cleric relieved Meredith of her duty on the completely fair and legal grounds that she has allowed and/or ordered mages to be made tranquil even after they have passed their harrowing, that the majority of the templars would side with Meredith.  I am completely certain that if she were to appoint Cullen to be in charge or whatever, all but a tiny number of die-hard Meredith supporters would follow orders and do their job.

It's not even about the mages, in the end.  It's about a representative of the Chantry grossly abusing her power and violating the Chantry's own rules and regulations to a massive and blatant degree.

It might not be that simple though. When is the right time to do that? 
What if Meredith accuses Elthina of being under the control of blood magic?
She may not get all the templars on her side, but there may be enough fanatics to start a conflict, which may end in an Exalted March. Meredith had power and followers, it's just not as easy as you may think.

[Pzykozis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


And even if they did, it doesnt mean they are happy about it. They were forced into a corner, which is what Anders wanted. Or that they would have done it.

Aye, thats why I added the caveat of as said by Varric, of course we won't know until we play it for ourselves since it appears that what's known about Hawke prior to this interrogation was mostly wrong.

Though to be fair to a certain extent they must have all rebelled it'll be a bit weird if it turns out that varric said they rebelled and Cass just let it go by and it's not even true.

The conditions of the rebellion are however, unknown, it could be as you say they were pushed into a corner, it could be just that they're fighting for their lives against the dissidant Templars that seem to have made a splinter faction, but because of that show of force they appear to be actively rebelling. All conjecture of course.

It seems unlikely to me though that they came across a situation like Kirkwall where they were either annuled or fight, and as such would strike me as strange that they'd rebel if they didn't want to. But that's probably YMMV etc.

[stobie]

Mr.House wrote...

You just don't pull blood magic out of thin air. The stuff Orsino does is something that he had to have learned and studied for years. You just don't cut your wrist and go "Yay my blood is magic now!"

Well, that's how my mage learned it...   However, while he's certainly studied it, there's no reason to think he's used it or planned to, unless he cracked.   In one version, he cracks, & in another, he's planning it. (I guess - in one, he kills his friends, and in mine, he just saw them dead.)  

Either way, he's still grabbing power out of fear, as was Meredith with her pink-glowy sword.  I found *her* more sympathetic, btw, than I did the Grand Cleric, though the Grand Cleric was wittier & not raving-mad.  Cullen says something about her cruelty, in giving the mages hope, and that was also a good point.

[Mr.House]

stobie wrote...

But your own character can be a blood mage, and given that it was annoyingly powerful (so as to make the game not so fun, I thought), then desperate mages would be more likely to seek it out. The theme of it seemed to be that the more people are repressed, the more they will seek out extreme measures. In that case, the people doing the repressing should hold some of the responsibility.

I also thought both Meredith & Orsino are supposed to be flawed, neither in the right, so that nothing you choose is really right. Their fears & weaknesses inspired *both* of them to seek out whatever power they could. In his, blood magic, & in hers, some weird lyrium sword. (which makes her fly through the sky like Puma Man, apparently.)

I don't see Hawke or the Warden becomnig a Harvester.

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

If the fact that it was unjustified is such common knowledge, why do the common people and templars consider Hawke a hero? Shouldn't they consider him/her an extremist who provoked a world war?

The Chantry certainly does until Varic tells his story.

-Polaris

Where do you get this from?

[stobie]

Not after seeing what they look like, no.

[Mr.House]

stobie wrote...
Well, that's how my mage learned it...   However, while he's certainly studied it, there's no reason to think he's used it or planned to, unless he cracked.   In one version, he cracks, & in another, he's planning it. (I guess - in one, he kills his friends, and in mine, he just saw them dead.)  

Either way, he's still grabbing power out of fear, as was Meredith with her pink-glowy sword.  I found *her* more sympathetic, btw, than I did the Grand Cleric, though the Grand Cleric was wittier & not raving-mad.  Cullen says something about her cruelty, in giving the mages hope, and that was also a good point.

As I said above, your Warden or Hawke does not become a Harvester or even wield the same power as season blood mages. Orsino's blood magic is very very very powerful.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If the fact that it was unjustified is such common knowledge, why do the common people and templars consider Hawke a hero? Shouldn't they consider him/her an extremist who provoked a world war?

The Chantry certainly does until Varic tells his story.

-Polaris

Where do you get this from?

Didn't Cassandra believe that the Champion conspired to start the disaster?

Which doens't make that much sense really if you're playing a very pro-Templar Hawke. Alpha Protocol pulled the flashforward cutscenes much better. They actually made sense.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Lianaar]

Considering that Orsino was involved in Quentin's studies or at least fascinated by them, and he was first enchanter, thus the most experienced and skilled sort of mage, or that is what I would presume, I do think he is very skilled in blood magic too.

[Pzykozis]

Mr.House wrote...

You just don't pull blood magic out of thin air. The stuff Orsino does is something that he had to have learned and studied for years. You just don't cut your wrist and go "Yay my blood is magic now!"

to be fair the circle in ferelden had books on blood magic in the library that anyone could have access to (until Irving pulls them) Orsino definately seems to understand the theory, but that's not exactly something that seems against the circles rules. (obviously the caveat here is that Ferelden is lax in comparison to Kirkwall).

[stobie]

Mr.House wrote...

stobie wrote...
Well, that's how my mage learned it...   However, while he's certainly studied it, there's no reason to think he's used it or planned to, unless he cracked.   In one version, he cracks, & in another, he's planning it. (I guess - in one, he kills his friends, and in mine, he just saw them dead.)  

Either way, he's still grabbing power out of fear, as was Meredith with her pink-glowy sword.  I found *her* more sympathetic, btw, than I did the Grand Cleric, though the Grand Cleric was wittier & not raving-mad.  Cullen says something about her cruelty, in giving the mages hope, and that was also a good point.

As I said above, your Warden or Hawke does not become a Harvester or even wield the same power as season blood mages. Orsino's blood magic is very very very powerful.

I would have taken it quite differently.  Somehow, the warden/champion mage can use it in moderation.  Orsino chooses to use it all at once, somewhat like giving in to madness. (and as far as being powerful, he was pretty easy to kill)  He didn't have a real goal at that point, which is why I took it to be an act of madness or desperation. I'm not sure at all what he was trying to do, especially since he had a group on his side.    Meredith seems to have more 'zip around & glow' power, and she hasn't been practicing. She's just been devolving into crazy.

[The Angry One]

Orsino specifically mentions Quentin's research before he transforms into the Harvester.
This is not a question of "har use all the power at once!" but carefully studied blood magic rituals that allow him to do this.

[ddv.rsa]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If the fact that it was unjustified is such common knowledge, why do the common people and templars consider Hawke a hero? Shouldn't they consider him/her an extremist who provoked a world war?

The Chantry certainly does until Varic tells his story.

-Polaris

Where do you get this from?

Didn't Cassandra believe that the Champion conspired to start the disaster?

Which doens't make that much sense really if you're playing a very pro-Templar Hawke. Alpha Protocol pulled the flashforward cutscenes much better. They actually made sense.

For the most part she didn't make any sense until much later, when you could put her comments in context. But 10 hours later you've already forgetten most of it anyway. Now that you mention it she implied that Hawke planned everything from the idol, to the qunari, to the final confrontation.

[Pzykozis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Didn't Cassandra believe that the Champion conspired to start the disaster?

Which doens't make that much sense really if you're playing a very pro-Templar Hawke. Alpha Protocol pulled the flashforward cutscenes much better. They actually made sense.

Isn't the saying; 'The first casualty of war is truth' ?

And Thedas according to Varric atleast seems to be in a fairly big war at the moment. The fact that the Chantry has so much wrong is part of the reason Cassie is questioning Varric in the first place.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Didn't Cassandra believe that the Champion conspired to start the disaster?

Which doens't make that much sense really if you're playing a very pro-Templar Hawke. Alpha Protocol pulled the flashforward cutscenes much better. They actually made sense.

Based on what Varric said, the Circles have been lost, the templars aren't taking orders, and the Seekers might be hunting the mages. I'd assume a pro-templar Hawke would be the hero of one faction that broke free from the Chantry as a pro-mage Hawke would since the Circles did the same.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The talk about soul edge and harvester insanity is making me re-experience the big underwhelment I felt when I finished the game. So much so that I didn't bother to start a 2nd playthrough as of yet.