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Was Anders Justified (No Pun intended)


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#951
Sabariel

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AshenEndemion wrote...

stobie wrote...

No, I'm saying she was afraid because of her own backstory, & was seeking out a powerful weapon. I would assume everything she does is in self-defense, in her mind.   As for illegal - well, *that* is pretty flexible in this game, isn't it?   Making Harrowed mages tranquil is illegal, too...  


No, no, no.... Making harrowed mages tranquil isn't illegal.  Making harrowed mages tranquil against their will is illegal.

So what if none of the tranquil can make the claim that it happened against their will.


No. Making any Harrowed mage Tranquil is illegal. Hence why they didn't Tranquilized DAA Anders after he escaped [exaggeration] five hundred times [/exaggeration].

#952
The Angry One

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LobselVith8 wrote...

From the Templar ending: "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression. He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied.  The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."


That's right, the Templars killed the mages, shattered the circle and defeated the First Enchanter who turned himself into a powerful flesh golem.
This shows that they can be defied!

Uhuh. I do not think defied means what they think it means.

#953
AshenEndymion

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Sabariel wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

stobie wrote...

No, I'm saying she was afraid because of her own backstory, & was seeking out a powerful weapon. I would assume everything she does is in self-defense, in her mind.   As for illegal - well, *that* is pretty flexible in this game, isn't it?   Making Harrowed mages tranquil is illegal, too...  


No, no, no.... Making harrowed mages tranquil isn't illegal.  Making harrowed mages tranquil against their will is illegal.

So what if none of the tranquil can make the claim that it happened against their will.


No. Making any Harrowed mage Tranquil is illegal. Hence why they didn't Tranquilized DAA Anders after he escaped [exaggeration] five hundred times [/exaggeration].


But that would have been against Anders' will.

If a Harrowed mage volunteers for tranquility, it's not illegal to make that mage a tranquil...  The problem is proving that a harrowed mage volunteered after he was made tranquil.

#954
Herr Uhl

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Why she bought it is odd. Maybe to put it in "safe" hands away from mages.


Wouldn't that be technically illegal? Templars are not supposed to own lyrium, only the chantry does...


Maybe it affected her almost instantly. She has people out looking for illegal lyrium trade and buys it up to turn it over to the chantry? Then when she got it and touched it she changed her mind about turning it over.

Idk, hard to make sense of it.

#955
ddv.rsa

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The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

From the Templar ending: "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression. He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied.  The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."


That's right, the Templars killed the mages, shattered the circle and defeated the First Enchanter who turned himself into a powerful flesh golem.
This shows that they can be defied!

Uhuh. I do not think defied means what they think it means.


Then Meredith tries to kill Hawke and fails. Maybe that's what they mean. 

#956
stobie

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Camenae wrote...

@stobie,

I'm opposed to tranquility when it's being abused like by the Kirkwall circle, yes. But when it is not being abused?? When the alternative is EXECUTION (because how else are you going to deal with people who become possessed?)?

In that case, depending on your personal feelings about the death penalty...I for one can see how someone who has suffered demonic possession would rather be tranquil than be killed outright.

Please don't treat my argument as if I'm saying, tranquility is hunky-dory and every average Joe should have it done yay! That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when it IS needed, like when mages do become abominations, then I don't see anything wrong with turning them Tranquil. In fact I personally think that would be more humane than outright killing them. Because when they do get possessed, SOMETHING has to be done to stop them, or do we disagree on that too?


Several of them say they'd rather be dead.  The whole possession-thing is a little vague to me.  Harrowed mages aren't supposed to be possessed, or maybe they are.  You can deal with demons and not be taken over, all that.  Abominations are running around, & don't seem to turn back into a person.  Or maybe they do.  From Origins, it seemed that a mage had to prove they could withstand, iow, outwit, a demon. If they were too scared to face that, they could choose to become Tranquil.  However, you also had the likes of Morrigan running around without State Control.  Not only that, but in Origins, you see Tranquil turning into abominations, so it's a pretty weird distinction.

Killing an abomination seems not that far from killing anyone who has gone bad, which we do in this game all the time.  They have never been over poweringly difficult to fight, so perhaps that colors my view of the danger they present.  People can be raised without the Chantry hovering over them, and do fine, like Morrigan, or they can be raised in the Chantry, and go completely crazy, like Uldred.   Therefore, I see no reason to think the Circle provides any real answer.

#957
LobselVith8

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The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

From the Templar ending: "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression. He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied.  The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."


That's right, the Templars killed the mages, shattered the circle and defeated the First Enchanter who turned himself into a powerful flesh golem.
This shows that they can be defied!

Uhuh. I do not think defied means what they think it means.


Maybe someone could ask David Gaider about this, then? I'm curious how the pro-templar Hawke's actions lead to the mage rebellion as well.

The status quo at the end of DA2 does imply rebellion from the mages and the templars. Varric addresses to Cassandra, "So how is hearing all this going to help? You've already lost all the Circles. In fact, haven't the templars rebelled as well? I thought you decided to abandon the Chantry to hunt the mages."

#958
KnightofPhoenix

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The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

From the Templar ending: "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression. He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied.  The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."


That's right, the Templars killed the mages, shattered the circle and defeated the First Enchanter who turned himself into a powerful flesh golem.
This shows that they can be defied!

Uhuh. I do not think defied means what they think it means.


The cutscene showing Templars plowing their way through mages with relative ease is such a show of defiance. 

#959
The Angry One

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ddv.rsa wrote...

Then Meredith tries to kill Hawke and fails. Maybe that's what they mean. 


The problem is at that point, none of the Templars are with Meredith, they're all against her and when Meredith is defeated they all kneel to pro-Templar Hawke.

#960
Pzykozis

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The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

From the Templar ending: "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression. He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied.  The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."


That's right, the Templars killed the mages, shattered the circle and defeated the First Enchanter who turned himself into a powerful flesh golem.
This shows that they can be defied!

Uhuh. I do not think defied means what they think it means.


Well technically the mages do defy the Templars a fair bit through the final act. Especially when they decide to have their last stand and actually attack. Just their defiance isn't successful.

#961
Sabariel

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

From the Templar ending: "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression. He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied.  The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."


That's right, the Templars killed the mages, shattered the circle and defeated the First Enchanter who turned himself into a powerful flesh golem.
This shows that they can be defied!

Uhuh. I do not think defied means what they think it means.


The cutscene showing Templars plowing their way through mages with relative ease is such a show of defiance. 


Well, you know, if you trip up a Templar with your dead mage body... defiance! :P

#962
ddv.rsa

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The Angry One wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Then Meredith tries to kill Hawke and fails. Maybe that's what they mean. 


The problem is at that point, none of the Templars are with Meredith, they're all against her and when Meredith is defeated they all kneel to pro-Templar Hawke.


I know. I'm also confused.

#963
KnightofPhoenix

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Pzykozis wrote...
Well technically the mages do defy the Templars a fair bit through the final act. Especially when they decide to have their last stand and actually attack. Just their defiance isn't successful.


It failed spectacularly, with both a pro-mage or pro-Templar Hawke, though.

If the "uprising" lasted for several days, with mages having a last stand worthy of song and poetry, then that could be very encouraging. But they were crushed within a few hours. And their leader turned insane. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 avril 2011 - 09:56 .


#964
The Angry One

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...
Well technically the mages do defy the Templars a fair bit through the final act. Especially when they decide to have their last stand and actually attack. Just their defiance isn't successful.


It failed spectacularly, with both a pro-mage or pro-Templar Hawke, though.

If the "uprising" lasted for several days, with mages having a last stand worthy of song and poetry, then that could be very encouraging. But they were crushed within a few hours. And their leader turned insane. 


Indeed, this is what gets me. Either way this should be a symbol of a complete disaster for mages.
Maybe with pro-mage Hawke you could say they could rally around his/her actions but that's about it.

#965
AshenEndymion

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The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

From the Templar ending: "Word of the slaughter spread quickly. The Champion's name became a rallying cry for all mages, a reminder of their brutal oppression. He had shown not only what the templars were willing to do, but that they could be defied.  The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."


That's right, the Templars killed the mages, shattered the circle and defeated the First Enchanter who turned himself into a powerful flesh golem.
This shows that they can be defied!

Uhuh. I do not think defied means what they think it means.


From Miriam-Webster

Defy (defied/defying)

1-to challenge to do something considered impossible 

2-to confront with assured power of resistance

3-to resist attempts at


Nothing in there says "successful" is needed...:lol:

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 03 avril 2011 - 09:59 .


#966
Pzykozis

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AshenEndemion wrote...

From Miriam-Webster

Defy (defied/defying)

1-to challenge to do something considered impossible 

2-to confront with assured power of resistance

3-to resist attempts at


Nothing in there says "successful" is needed...:lol:


Aye, that was my point, of course it's not wrong however to say that it did fail spectacularly and so shouldn't really be a rallying symbol to get behind.. unless all mages want to die horrible deaths.

#967
The Angry One

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AshenEndemion wrote...
Nothing in there says "successful" is needed...:lol:


It is implicit in this case. There have been I think two Rights of Annulment performed before.

#968
KnightofPhoenix

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The Angry One wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...
Well technically the mages do defy the Templars a fair bit through the final act. Especially when they decide to have their last stand and actually attack. Just their defiance isn't successful.


It failed spectacularly, with both a pro-mage or pro-Templar Hawke, though.

If the "uprising" lasted for several days, with mages having a last stand worthy of song and poetry, then that could be very encouraging. But they were crushed within a few hours. And their leader turned insane. 


Indeed, this is what gets me. Either way this should be a symbol of a complete disaster for mages.
Maybe with pro-mage Hawke you could say they could rally around his/her actions but that's about it.


The ending just sucks.

The Templar vs Mage battle should have lasted for at least a few days, with the Templars besieging the Gallows. And with such high casualties on the Templars (they didn't seem to suffer that much).  That would have been an inspiring show of defiance, even if it failed.

But boware sucks with battle and warfare.

#969
Lithuasil

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The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
Nothing in there says "successful" is needed...:lol:


It is implicit in this case. There have been I think two Rights of Annulment performed before.


Afaik the right has been invoked 17 times, including ferelden and kirkwall.

#970
The Angry One

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Lithuasil wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
Nothing in there says "successful" is needed...:lol:


It is implicit in this case. There have been I think two Rights of Annulment performed before.


Afaik the right has been invoked 17 times, including ferelden and kirkwall.


That many? I guess I should read the codex again.. :bandit:

#971
AshenEndymion

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Lithuasil wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
Nothing in there says "successful" is needed...:lol:


It is implicit in this case. There have been I think two Rights of Annulment performed before.


Afaik the right has been invoked 17 times, including ferelden and kirkwall.


Seventeen times, excluding those two.... there was no Annulment in Ferelden (because the templars didn't do so, if the Warden performs it for them, thus "technically" no annulment).  And the codex entry saying 17 is given before Kirkwall occurs.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 03 avril 2011 - 10:06 .


#972
ddv.rsa

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The ending just sucks.

The Templar vs Mage battle should have lasted for at least a few days, with the Templars besieging the Gallows. And with such high casualties on the Templars (they didn't seem to suffer that much).  That would have been an inspiring show of defiance, even if it failed.

But boware sucks with battle and warfare.


I thought the cutscene of the templars storming the hall was pretty cool. They actually reminded me of imperial stormtroopers there.

#973
_Somebody

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The Angry One wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...
Nothing in there says "successful" is needed...:lol:


It is implicit in this case. There have been I think two Rights of Annulment performed before.


Afaik the right has been invoked 17 times, including ferelden and kirkwall.


That many? I guess I should read the codex again.. :bandit:

Yeah, but thats over the course of centuries. 

#974
Lithuasil

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But boware sucks with battle and warfare.


Actually, this. I can't remember a single really compelling battle-scene in a bioware game :|

#975
_Somebody

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ddv.rsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The ending just sucks.

The Templar vs Mage battle should have lasted for at least a few days, with the Templars besieging the Gallows. And with such high casualties on the Templars (they didn't seem to suffer that much).  That would have been an inspiring show of defiance, even if it failed.

But boware sucks with battle and warfare.


I thought the cutscene of the templars storming the hall was pretty cool. They actually reminded me of imperial stormtroopers there.

It was so one sided, one templar took out like 5 mages. Yup, they really defied the templars that day...