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[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...

The question/ problem I have about the ending is that if you side with the mages, the game seems to assume you are taking sides in the larger war. Anders certainly assumes that. Whereas I don't envision my Hawke being involved in a protracted Circle vs. templar war- she just wanted to restore order in Kirkwall.

"Restoring order" by siding against the current status quo in the rest of Thedas seems like a really poor - and ultimately short lived - way to go about it.

Siding with the mages is siding with the revolution, no question.

[Pzykozis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think an opposition front against MEredith could have been used as the foundation for gradual change.

We know from Culen's letter that the common people always side with Templars against mages, but for the first time, people in Kikwall were actually sympathizing with mages. I think that's huge, could have been capitalized and could be used as the basis for reform.

For probably the first time too, we have Templars and mages collaborating to oust a Templar leader (too bad the idiot Grace had to ruin it). This is also very huge and could be used as the basis of reform.

Add to that the nobility that disliked Meredith because they see her grabing power. And the guards that don't like Meredith encroaching on them. And skepitcal Templars like Cullen, who is a hardcore Templar.

If all of these factions were mobalized, and I think they could have, this unprecedented event could have been the foundation for change and reform. Would it have freed mages instantly everywhere in the world? No. But having realistic objectives and patience is a sign of maturity. 

That is much better in both the short and long terms, than what Anders did imo.

I don't neccassarily disagree with you, though I think such an occurance is highly unlikely, and would perhaps just result in the exalted march that was hinted at in Sebs quest with Sister Nightingale taking place anyway.

As for Cullen I believe he is second in command? I'm not sure with the heirarchy for Templars, but there's no way he'd give mages more freedom, as you say he is a hardcore Templar he only disagrees with some of Meredith's actions, and in DA:O was proven to be fairly unstable in his hatred and paranoia of mages, and unlike Meredith he hasn't really gone of the deep end so ousting him would essentially encourage action from the divine.

Also, whilst.. perhaps not the best arguement to bring forth (and I will admit that) it'd make for a fairly dull ending to a game.

Edit: @Upsettingshorts, My Hawke sided with his sister, he didn't really care that much about the wider mage vs Templar conflict but he was damned if he was going to let Meredith annul his sister. It's a shame that there is no nuance or reasoning for your actions and that it is taken for granted (I can see why it's that way and don't really come away disappointed because of it though).

Modifié par Pzykozis, 02 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Again, I remind you that you make an inaccurate generalization about free mages that lore disproves. Free mages =/= Imperium. Free mages don't mean everyone else loses their rights.

And I remind you that the Dalish don't force non-mages into slavery or servitude.

The Dalish are small, nomadic tribes. You can't use them as proof that a mageocracy wouldn't oppress non-mages.

There's nothing to prevent me from providing examples from canon that illustrate that your theory isn't supported historically. Your claim that free mages means the oppression of everyone else is false by the standards of the societies we've seen where there are free mages, and everyone else isn't enslaved to them. Non-mages are not enslaved by the Chasind, nor the Dalish, or even in the nation of Rivain. Even the psychologically twisted town of Haven has mages living alongside non-mages, and no magocracy.

The Angry One wrote...

The fact is the only large, established society with mages at the top is Tevinter.

The fact is that the Chantry oppressed mages everywhere else, which is why the opposite to Tevinter is the Andrastian societies, where mages were enslaved to the Chantry through the Circles of Magi. Or were, until the mages rebelled.

The Angry One wrote...

By the way, Tevinter supports mage rebellions elsewhere in Thedas and has probably thrown funds behind Anders' underground and the general mage revolt. Think about that.

Anders wanted to end the slavery of the mages. Other individuals wanted the same thing.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

He's Guy Fawkes. He did it so that war would be inevitable, the Templars, the Chantry, and the Circle would have no choice but fight.

[ddv.rsa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders wanted to end the slavery of the mages. Other individuals wanted the same thing.

Except that mages aren't slaves to anyone. Well, perhaps in Tevinter.

[Mahtisonni]

This entire conflict is born from the chantry's incredibly selfish desire for a private army.
Having control over Templars and Mages is what this essentially is about.

Should the Chantry go public with templar training, every guardsman or and warrior could learn how to beat the crap out of a mage. What will a mage do after he/she gets chainsilenced by random bystanders and/or by the city guard?

Also, if chantry plans to kill all mages that refuse to submit to them, then the mages will have backing of all the rulers with working brain during this rebellion.
Mages are the only force that can repel the Qunari conquest.

Even if the Qunari were not technologically superior, they would still win all melee confrontations due to their superior physique.
Beresaad are mostly bred to be warriors and trained as such as soon as their role is determined and their entire lives are dedicated to the sword, so to speak.

Do you honestly want to try to fight them without magic? I bet that Loghaine would back mages, considering that faith offers little protection from cannon fire.




So I will have to say that Anders was right.
Religion should never have any hold over politics and now people are being forced to give mages human rights, or be conquered by qunari.

Modifié par Mahtisonni, 02 avril 2011 - 07:47 .

[Kabraxal]

Willingly killing innocents is never justified.

Anders is a murdering terrorirst.

[Kotetsimaru]

Mahtisonni wrote...

This entire conflict is born from the chantry's incredibly selfish desire for a private army.
Having control over Templars and Mages is what this essentially is about.

Should the Chantry go public with templar training, every guardsman or and warrior could learn how to beat the crap out of a mage. What will a mage do after he/she gets chainsilenced by random bystanders and/or by the city guard?

Also, if chantry plans to kill all mages that refuse to submit to them, then the mages will have backing of all the rulers with working brain during this rebellion.
Mages are the only force that can repel the Qunari conquest.

Even if the Qunari were not technologically superior, they would still win all melee confrontations due to their superior physique.
Beresaad are mostly bred to be warriors and trained as such as soon as their role is determined and their entire lives are dedicated to the sword, so to speak.

Do you honestly want to try to fight them without magic? I bet that Loghaine would back mages, considering that faith offers little protection from cannon fire.

Lol especially when you consider the only reason the Qunari were originally pushed back was because they were nuked into oblivion by all the mages.  Have a feeling that maybe the Qunari may take advantage of the situation and try to take over again, i mean the Arishok does say they will return.

Modifié par Kotetsimaru, 02 avril 2011 - 07:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Pzykozis wrote...
I don't neccassarily disagree with you, though I think such an occurance is highly unlikely, and would perhaps just result in the exalted march that was hinted at in Sebs quest with Sister Nightingale taking place anyway.

I don't think it was likely that an exalted march was to happen if what I have in mind worked. The Divine was considering it seriously, because Kirkwall was drifting into chaos. But if order is re-established and the nobility, commoners and Templars are united with the mages, I just do not think the Chantry would be as stupid as to declare an exalted march. They might if the Templars are disbanded, which shouldn't happen.

As for Cullen I believe he is second in command? I'm not sure with the heirarchy for Templars, but there's no way he'd give mages more freedom, as you say he is a hardcore Templar he only disagrees with some of Meredith's actions, and in DA:O was proven to be fairly unstable in his hatred and paranoia of mages, and unlike Meredith he hasn't really gone of the deep end so ousting him would essentially encourage action from the divine.

I don't think he is unreasonable in DA2 and I think he can be made to see reason. He might not be that enthusiastic, but I think there wuld have been enough pressure for him to tolerate some reforms.

Cullen genuinely believes in serving the people, I think. If they want more mage freedom, within reasonable limits, I think he'd accept it.

[Mahtisonni]

Kotetsimaru wrote...
Lol especially when you consider the only reason the Qunari were originally pushed back was because they were nuked into oblivion by all the mages.  Have a feeling that maybe the Qunari may take advantage of the situation and try to take over again, i mean the Arishok does say they will return.

This is exactly what I expect to see.
Those that are unable to adapt, will perish or submit to the Qun.

People will be forced to either give mages their freedom, or suffer a much similiar fate that they had passed on to mages.

They will have to face this choice.
Either they give the mages their freedom, or lose their own.

It will be glorious to see how the shallow nature of the chantry will finally become public in the future.

Modifié par Mahtisonni, 02 avril 2011 - 07:55 .

[ddv.rsa]

Mahtisonni wrote...
They will have to face this choice.
Either they give the mages their freedom, or lose their own.

They might lose it any case. As someone  pointed out earlier, because of Anders this war is likely to end in the winner dominating the loser. If the mages win, that means everyone else. 

Can you really say the rise of another Imperium is better?

[Rifneno]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...
They will have to face this choice.
Either they give the mages their freedom, or lose their own.

They might lose it any case. As someone  pointed out earlier, because of Anders this war is likely to end in the winner dominating the loser. If the mages win, that means everyone else. 

Can you really say the rise of another Imperium is better?

Mages out from the Chantry's bootheel = Tevinter 2.0.

I know the Chantry does a good job of fearmongering to control public opinion in the game, but it's pretty incredible that they have actual players in the real world believing it too.

[Mahtisonni]

ddv.rsa wrote...
They might lose it any case. As someone  pointed out earlier, because of Anders this war is likely to end in the winner dominating the loser. If the mages win, that means everyone else. 

Can you really say the rise of another Imperium is better?

Well, considering that the Imperium cannot function without slaves it's not really an ideal option and anybody with brain could figure this one out, but sadly it seems that the likelyhood of you being born with a pair in Thedas is about on the same level as the likelyhood of being born with nipples that shoot laser.

So yes there is a high chance of that happening, unless there is some sort of champion who could put a stop to such a nefarious plan and install a democratic goverment where all men are considered as equal.

Modifié par Mahtisonni, 02 avril 2011 - 08:09 .

[The Baconer]

Tevinter got it right.

[Kotetsimaru]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Mahtisonni wrote...
They will have to face this choice.
Either they give the mages their freedom, or lose their own.

They might lose it any case. As someone  pointed out earlier, because of Anders this war is likely to end in the winner dominating the loser. If the mages win, that means everyone else. 

Can you really say the rise of another Imperium is better?

It could always end with mages getting their own land to live in.  I mean the magisters and the circle/chantry are both extremes to be honest, although they are both just going by the same religion just different understandings of it.  I think if given the option most mages would like to just live a normal life (well normal as a mage lol) but they either have the option of be a slave in a tower or make everyone else your slave.  I think if they had a third option to just have their own colonies then a lot would choose that option.

[Rifneno]

The Baconer wrote...

Tevinter got it right.

Anybody who says two wrongs don't make a right never saw Tevinter and the Qunari.  Either one would probably overrun the civilized parts of Thedas if not for the fact they're constantly battling each other.

[Mahtisonni]

The rise of a new imperium can naturally be stopped by MAKING THE GODDAMN TEMPLAR TRAINING PUBLIC!
Honestly, if half of the population can turn your magic into a wet fart, then it doesn't seem like a very compelling idea to ****** them off.

[Kotetsimaru]

Mahtisonni wrote...

The rise of a new imperium can naturally be stopped by MAKING THE GODDAMN TEMPLAR TRAINING PUBLIC!
Honestly, if half of the population can turn your magic into a wet fart, then it doesn't seem like a very compelling idea to ****** them off.

Not only that but if the common folk could combat magic then they wouldn't be so scared of mages.  Only reason people are so fearful of them is that the chantry has pretty much sat there going mages bad mages make big booms and use your blood to make deals with demons BUT it's ok come worship us for we have the special guards who can fight them.

[The Baconer]

Mahtisonni wrote...

The rise of a new imperium can naturally be stopped by MAKING THE GODDAMN TEMPLAR TRAINING PUBLIC!
Honestly, if half of the population can turn your magic into a wet fart, then it doesn't seem like a very compelling idea to ****** them off.

Going by certain codex entries, Templars aren't as effective as their ability trees would imply.

[Mahtisonni]

Rifneno wrote...
Anybody who says two wrongs don't make a right never saw Tevinter and the Qunari.  Either one would probably overrun the civilized parts of Thedas if not for the fact they're constantly battling each other.

Well, not really if all warriors in those civilized parts would know templar arts then the conquest would be significantly more.... inconvinient.

Templars counter tevinter and Mages counter Qunari.
Simple as that.
Why should you skimp on templars? It's not there aren't people who have left the order and gave their secrets away already.

[ddv.rsa]

Rifneno wrote...

Mages out from the Chantry's bootheel = Tevinter 2.0.

I know the Chantry does a good job of fearmongering to control public opinion in the game, but it's pretty incredible that they have actual players in the real world believing it too.

Almost every apostate mage in the game was a maleficar who tried to kill me. That made a far bigger impression on me than either Chantry "fearmongering" or pro-mage arguments from the likes of Anders. 

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 02 avril 2011 - 08:21 .

[Rifneno]

Mahtisonni wrote...

The rise of a new imperium can naturally be stopped by MAKING THE GODDAMN TEMPLAR TRAINING PUBLIC!
Honestly, if half of the population can turn your magic into a wet fart, then it doesn't seem like a very compelling idea to ****** them off.

Templars' abilities are exaggerated.  Hawke being able to mow down anyone is no big surprise, but you can see other mages holding their own too.  Orsino takes out quite a few templars when he still looks like Count Chocula and not Roseanne Barr.  It's just that mages can't totally roflstomp them like some peasant with a pitchfork.  That's why Kirkwall led to rebellions, they found out the templars aren't as invincible as they think.

I think mages will actually watch over their own fairly well.  Consider that they'll realize how delicate their freedom is and that a few bad apples can ruin it for everyone.  When word starts going around about a bad apple, you can bet other mages will barbeque him even if just so his crimes won't reflect on them.

[Mahtisonni]

Rifneno wrote...
Templars' abilities are exaggerated.  Hawke being able to mow down anyone is no big surprise, but you can see other mages holding their own too.  Orsino takes out quite a few templars when he still looks like Count Chocula and not Roseanne Barr.  It's just that mages can't totally roflstomp them like some peasant with a pitchfork.  That's why Kirkwall led to rebellions, they found out the templars aren't as invincible as they think.

I think mages will actually watch over their own fairly well.  Consider that they'll realize how delicate their freedom is and that a few bad apples can ruin it for everyone.  When word starts going around about a bad apple, you can bet other mages will barbeque him even if just so his crimes won't reflect on them.

The way I see it that a templar is sort of like the Sherman tank during WW2 and a mage is like a Tiger.
Unlike Tiger, you can mass produce shermies so cheap that even though you lose 6 taking down a Tiger the enemy suffers heavier losses due to how rare those things were.

In this case however the Sherman isn't being mass produced so the advantage is moot.
All because chantry wanted to patent templars.

Modifié par Mahtisonni, 02 avril 2011 - 08:29 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

No. Absolutely not. It was excessive, and without doubt led to more suffering to the mages, the templars, and all the people of Thedas, than it avoided. The problem was mostly with Meredith, and any justified action should have been directed at her, and the most radical of templars. Less aggressive means should have been explored for improving the lot of mages.

The only reason why I hesitated, for a moment, before killing Anders, was that he seemed to WANT to be killed, to become a martyr. If I had the choise, I would have handed him over to the templars instead, to be made tranquil. THAT would have been punishment fitting the crime, in the case of Anders.

[Rifneno]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Mages out from the Chantry's bootheel = Tevinter 2.0.

I know the Chantry does a good job of fearmongering to control public opinion in the game, but it's pretty incredible that they have actual players in the real world believing it too.

Almost every apostate mage in the game was a maleficar who tried to kill me. That made a far bigger impression on me than either Chantry "fearmongering" or pro-mage arguments from the likes of Anders. 

http://dragonage.wik...gma_of_Kirkwall