1927 réponses à ce sujet

[ddv.rsa]

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

What's the thread called? I can't find it. I know there's a templar standing around the gallows who claims that in Act II already, but he says a lot of things.

[Foryou]

whoa i look away for a day and 40 pages come up... anyway KEEP IT ON TOPIC

[sphinxess]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

What's the thread called? I can't find it. I know there's a templar standing around the gallows who claims that in Act II already, but he says a lot of things.

Um the request would go to Elthina - where are they claiming she sent it?

Modifié par sphinxess, 04 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

Wait a minute, wasn't Elthina the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall?    If she was, then she would have been the one to approve or reject the Rite of of Annulment and, obviously, she hadn't given Meredith permission.  Elthina can be blamed for a lot, but it seems like she was protecting the Circle on this point.

[AshenEndymion]

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

a)Just because you don't think it's necessary, does not mean that it isn't, or that others feel the same as you.  Meredith felt it was necissary, and that's all that is needed for her to apply for the Rite of Annulment.

b)Elthina had officially denied the Rite of Annulment.  That's why Meredith was sending to Val Royeux for permission.  The local Grand Cleric denied permission, but the Divine can overrule her(although it's doubtful that she would based on the information at the time).  In essence, Anders garaunteed the Rite being applied on Kirkwall's Circle by killing the Grand Cleric.

[ddv.rsa]

sphinxess wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

What's the thread called? I can't find it. I know there's a templar standing around the gallows who claims that in Act II already, but he says a lot of things.

Um the request would go to Elthina - where are they claiming she sent it?

They guy I'm thinking of says Val Royeaux.

[stobie]

Hey - it's on topic! A lot of Anders's act is justified or not depending on the Grand Cleric. She seemed like a fairly benign old lady trying to keep peace, on my first run through. It would be very interesting to see if there was more to her than that. (Ok, the more Sebastian waxed on about her, the more I found her suspicious, but I didn't like him much, despite his gorgeous voice.)


However, she had been alerted to a lot of problems, & did nothing. Her 'turn my back & walk away from problems' seemed, on the surface, to be her greatest flaw, but to learn she was involved in any of it would be quite as damning as Orsino being pen pals with the necromancer.

[_Aine_]

AshenEndemion wrote...

  In essence, Anders garaunteed the Rite being applied on Kirkwall's Circle by killing the Grand Cleric.

Well, in the Fade wasn't Justice a Templar? He could easily eradicate the mages if he made a feisty one do something like say, blowing up a Chantry. Not saying that is the case of course, just that sometimes the reasons behind things may be different than at first glance.

Just used this as an example.  NOT saying it is probable or even possible.

Modifié par shantisands, 04 avril 2011 - 12:13 .

[Anarcala]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

What's the thread called? I can't find it. I know there's a templar standing around the gallows who claims that in Act II already, but he says a lot of things.

It's here > http://social.biowar...dex/6402250/567

Justified is a difficult word for me to use.  I think to Anders, of
course it was. Just as Meredith felt she was justified in looking for
the Rite.  Where emotion leads, logic rarely goes without being at
least warped a bit by that emotion.  I don't think *most anyone* who
has commit a crime says to themself: you know, I am probably wrong
about this but maybe killing a thousand innocent people may be the
right thing to do?  Lemme try and see.  Ooops, no I was wrong. Um,
sorry?  

Psychopaths are scariest when they *really* think they are right.  More so even when done with zealous fervor.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/surprised.png

Anders
action WAS similar to Meredith's call though, whether done
pre-emptively or not, because they both SUCK at problem solving.  None
of that was going to solve the issue. One was just going to clear the
slate until they had to do the exact same thing all over again, and the
other was set to start a revolt.  

For crazy people, it was
justifiable as much as crazy people can justify anything.      Seems
though the city was more scared of magic than they were of stupidty and
fear, and wanted termination of issues instead of resolution. 

Anders isn't a psychopath (he does feel shame and guilt for what he did), but he is a zealot.  Not sure I get the crime analogy though...

Meredith may have been trying to problem solve, but Anders certainly wasn't.  All he was trying to do was remove compromise from the situation.  Freedom or nothing, as it were.

[TJPags]

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

Say what?  She sent the request to Val Royeaux? Which would be the Divine herself?

And this is based on what?

[Anarcala]

AshenEndemion wrote...

b)Elthina had officially denied the Rite of Annulment.  That's why Meredith was sending to Val Royeux for permission.  The local Grand Cleric denied permission, but the Divine can overrule her(although it's doubtful that she would based on the information at the time).  In essence, Anders garaunteed the Rite being applied on Kirkwall's Circle by killing the Grand Cleric.

Sorry I must have missed this - where can you find out if Elthina contested the Rite?

[Anarcala]

TJPags wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

Say what?  She sent the request to Val Royeaux? Which would be the Divine herself?

And this is based on what?

There is in game dialogue at the Gallows during Act III.  Click on some of the templars.

[Conduit0]

ddv.rsa wrote...

I don't know. Lots of people here support unconditional mage freedom. But if I try to imagine mages existing in the real, modern day world, I don't think I'd be comfortable living and working side by side with them. You could be in your home, minding your own business, when your neighbor who is a mage gets possessed and destroys the entire block. Your family, your friends, your property - all gone, through no fault of your own. Or what about a mage child becoming possessed at school, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of kids? Not to say anything of the abuses blood mages with mind controlling abilities could get away with.

Sure, people will say "train them, then it'll be fine!". Great, except that even First Enchanters have fallen prey to possession by demons. People would be sympathetic at first, but after a few tragic incidents I think we'd implement a system similar to the circle. Maybe even outright witch hunts.

I don't know if thats a particularily fair notion. I think the fear of Mages being randomly possessed and turning into abominations is greatly exagerated by the Chantry. Look at the Dalish, the Keepers are all mages, if mages turned into abominations as often as the Chantry would suggest, the Dalish would have abandoned the Keeper system as being too dangerous long ago. Merril admits at one point that Keepers do occasionally fall prey to demons, but obviously it doesn't happen often enough for them to consider all mages as a bomb waiting to go off. I would even go so far as to surmise that under normal conditions, a trained mage sucumbing to a demon is infact exceedingly rare.

[AshenEndymion]

Anarcala wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

b)Elthina had officially denied the Rite of Annulment.  That's why Meredith was sending to Val Royeux for permission.  The local Grand Cleric denied permission, but the Divine can overrule her(although it's doubtful that she would based on the information at the time).  In essence, Anders garaunteed the Rite being applied on Kirkwall's Circle by killing the Grand Cleric.

Sorry I must have missed this - where can you find out if Elthina contested the Rite?

By not approving of the Rite, the Rite is denied.  If the request is sent to Val Royeux, it must have been sent to Elthina prior.  If the request was not sent to Elthina, then Meredith strongly believed that the Grand Cleric would not approve, and felt the Divine would have a more approving response.

Modifié par AshenEndemion, 04 avril 2011 - 12:23 .

[_Aine_]

Anarcala wrote...

Anders isn't a psychopath (he does feel shame and guilt for what he did), but he is a zealot.  Not sure I get the crime analogy though...

I was refering to Justice's lack of empathy in this particular installment.  And Justice, in the end, won within Anders, in my opinion.  His action at the chantry WAS devoid of societal morals also, whether "Just" or not.  Justice had only "principle" morals, at any cost to maintain the principle of justice as a concept.  Concepts are not always as neat in RL though.   And, thanks to Anders influence, they masked those tendencies with an outside ability to appear somewhat "normal".  I still think that fits with current Anders/Justice by the *end* of DA2 ( he originally maintained some guilt when aware of his actions, though, he also claimed to have blackouts and done things he was not aware of also....a whole other problem!)  I don't think much of Anders was left by the end.  I thought so MORE in my mage-sided playthrough, much less in my moderate templar-sided, then both.   

This is just my opinion of course.  To my eye, by the end, Anders had descended into madness.  He was little more than a husk.    

When I speak of crazy, I am refering more to Vengeance, than the old Anders or Justice, just to clarify. 

Modifié par shantisands, 04 avril 2011 - 12:29 .

[TJPags]

Anarcala wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

Okay so I'm just gonna get my spoon out and do a little s**t stirring, but there's a neat discussion going on in the Anders thread (companions & NPC's) that shows Meredith had already sent for the Rite of Annulment before Anders blew up the Chantry.

My point is this...does his act now seem more justified given:
a) Meredith was almost openly planning mass murder without necessity
Elthina (via official or unofficial channels) would have known the rite had been sent for...and did nothing

(Apologies if this has already been covered)

Say what?  She sent the request to Val Royeaux? Which would be the Divine herself?

And this is based on what?

There is in game dialogue at the Gallows during Act III.  Click on some of the templars.

Read what they had to say (in the livejournal page, the thread is useless for discussion).

My question - how would Ser Karras know this, what was the full conversation, and why would he just blurt that out?  Okay, sorry, 3 questions.

[ddv.rsa]

Conduit0 wrote...

I don't know if thats a particularily fair notion. I think the fear of Mages being randomly possessed and turning into abominations is greatly exagerated by the Chantry. Look at the Dalish, the Keepers are all mages, if mages turned into abominations as often as the Chantry would suggest, the Dalish would have abandoned the Keeper system as being too dangerous long ago. Merril admits at one point that Keepers do occasionally fall prey to demons, but obviously it doesn't happen often enough for them to consider all mages as a bomb waiting to go off. I would even go so far as to surmise that under normal conditions, a trained mage sucumbing to a demon is infact exceedingly rare.

The thing is, it doesn't need to happen often. Like Cullen says, one mage having a bad day could destroy an entire city. It's happened in DA's past that lone abominations have destroyed entire towns before being stopped. Even if destruction on this scale only happens a few times in a century, spread across the world, do you genuinely think that people would be prepared to live with that constant risk in the real world? 

As for the Dalish, magic is much less prevalent among them than with humans. Merrill tells you that fewer and fewer mage children are born to them each generation. Of course there would be less abominations.

[TJPags]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Anarcala wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

b)Elthina had officially denied the Rite of Annulment.  That's why Meredith was sending to Val Royeux for permission.  The local Grand Cleric denied permission, but the Divine can overrule her(although it's doubtful that she would based on the information at the time).  In essence, Anders garaunteed the Rite being applied on Kirkwall's Circle by killing the Grand Cleric.

Sorry I must have missed this - where can you find out if Elthina contested the Rite?

By not approving of the Rite, the Rite is denied.  If the request is sent to Val Royeux, it must have been sent to Elthina prior.  If the request was not sent to Elthina, then Meredith strongly believed that the Grand Cleric would not approve, and felt the Divine would have a more approving response.

Nothing in what I saw indicates it was sent to Elfinna.  Meredith may have sent directly to the Divine, bypassing Elthinna.  Assuming its at all accurate.

[Anarcala]

By not approving of the Rite, the Rite is denied. If the request is sent to Val Royeux, it must have been sent to Elthina prior. If the request was not sent to Elthina, then Meredith strongly believed that the Grand Cleric would not approve, and felt the Divine would have a more approving response.

Okay so the key issue here is whether or not Elthina was ever given the chance to view the request, and if she had what was her response. We're not gonna get answers I guess.

I was refering to Justice's lack of empathy in this particular installment. And Justice, in the end, won within Anders, in my opinion. His action at the chantry WAS devoid of societal morals also, whether "Just" or not. Justice had only "principle" morals, at any cost to maintain the principle of justice as a concept. Concepts are not always as neat in RL though. And, thanks to Anders influence, they masked those tendencies with an outside ability to appear somewhat "normal". I still think that fits with current Anders/Justice by the *end* of DA2 ( he originally maintained some guilt when aware of his actions, though, he also claimed to have blackouts and done things he was not aware of also....a whole other problem!) I don't think much of Anders was left by the end. I thought so MORE in my mage-sided playthrough, much less in my moderate templar-sided, then both.

This is just my opinion of course. To my eye, by the end, Anders had descended into madness. He was little more than a husk.

I agree, there are intrinsic problems with trying to apply an absolute to any given situation. And essentially Anders was saying 'either Mages get Justice, or they don't' by blowing up the Chantry.

However, it is made plain that Anders does understand that his actions are extreme. He feels guilt for them. As to whether or not he is insane...I'm not sure he is in any kind of psychopathic or sociopathic way at least. Certainly he's depressed, paranoid and possibly schizophrenic, but he seems (for the most part) in control of his actions. As for Justice taking over, or Vengence, Anders himself says that they are all one now.

Honestly, he seems to me like any terrorist/freedom fighter - regardless of the spirit inside.

[Conduit0]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

I don't know if thats a particularily fair notion. I think the fear of Mages being randomly possessed and turning into abominations is greatly exagerated by the Chantry. Look at the Dalish, the Keepers are all mages, if mages turned into abominations as often as the Chantry would suggest, the Dalish would have abandoned the Keeper system as being too dangerous long ago. Merril admits at one point that Keepers do occasionally fall prey to demons, but obviously it doesn't happen often enough for them to consider all mages as a bomb waiting to go off. I would even go so far as to surmise that under normal conditions, a trained mage sucumbing to a demon is infact exceedingly rare.

The thing is, it doesn't need to happen often. Like Cullen says, one mage having a bad day could destroy an entire city. It's happened in DA's past that lone abominations have destroyed entire towns before being stopped. Even if destruction on this scale only happens a few times in a century, spread across the world, do you genuinely think that people would be prepared to live with that constant risk in the real world? 

As for the Dalish, magic is much less prevalent among them than with humans. Merrill tells you that fewer and fewer mage children are born to them each generation. Of course there would be less abominations.

And Loghain having a bad day wiped out an entire city's worth of people at Ostegar. The problem is the fact that these events happen even with the Circle system and infact likely increase the chances of it happening. Apostates hidden by their families simply because they don't want to lose their child to the Circle. Improperly trained mages and mage apostates simply wanting to be free are forced to live in constant fear and forced into greater danger of possession than is actually necessary. So if the Circle system doesn't stop these events from happening and infact likely increase the risk of them happening, its pretty hard to imagine that people would be willing to accept the system as is, if they were honestly informed and not just fed Chantry propaganda.

[AshenEndymion]

TJPags wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

By not approving of the Rite, the Rite is denied.  If the request is sent to Val Royeux, it must have been sent to Elthina prior.  If the request was not sent to Elthina, then Meredith strongly believed that the Grand Cleric would not approve, and felt the Divine would have a more approving response.

Nothing in what I saw indicates it was sent to Elfinna.  Meredith may have sent directly to the Divine, bypassing Elthinna.  Assuming its at all accurate.

Yes, nothing in the statement indicates it was.  Nothing indicates it wasn't.  I assume a request was sent to Elthina, because that is standard procedure.  Just like I assume there are children in the Kirkwall Circle, even though there is nothing to indicate that there are...

It never looks good, in military-like organizations, to go over the head of ones immediate superior without even informing them.  Usually the result is "Why did you come to me with this?  Go talk to them, then come to me."  Yes it is possible that she didn't even send the request to Elthina.  But I don't believe this is the case.

[stobie]

At some point, doesn't Anders attempt to talk to Elthina? Isn't that when he's planting his bomb? He says he wants to give her another chance, or something like that? And she - shock - waffles.

I will say, both with Anders and Merrill, I never really understood what they were after. What he does just seems to make things worse for all mages, & what she does seems destined to haul in a demon. If you're involved with either, it means they're putting their lover in a position of having to kill them, potentially. Merrill isn't sneaky about it - Anders does deceive you, if only to keep you out of it. But it is rather unkind of them, considering what you've already lost. Curious that she can destroy the thing she wants to save, her clan, as he can threaten the people he wants to save, the mages. (I adore the clan - that's not happening.)


eta:  The terrorist - freedom fighter is distinction based solely on which side you're on. (as in, George Washington viewed by old british eyes)   What I cared about was friendship (or love) angle.  I sided with him, no matter what, because I understood, just as I did with Merrill, but it's a little weird to have no real discussion after, or any relationship changes.

Modifié par stobie, 04 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[Sabariel]

Quite possible my memory is just being holey, but I swear I warned Elthina, more than once, and she chose not to leave nor to empty out the Chantry. So... yeah...

[TJPags]

AshenEndemion wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

By not approving of the Rite, the Rite is denied.  If the request is sent to Val Royeux, it must have been sent to Elthina prior.  If the request was not sent to Elthina, then Meredith strongly believed that the Grand Cleric would not approve, and felt the Divine would have a more approving response.

Nothing in what I saw indicates it was sent to Elfinna.  Meredith may have sent directly to the Divine, bypassing Elthinna.  Assuming its at all accurate.

Yes, nothing in the statement indicates it was.  Nothing indicates it wasn't.  I assume a request was sent to Elthina, because that is standard procedure.  Just like I assume there are children in the Kirkwall Circle, even though there is nothing to indicate that there are...

It never looks good, in military-like organizations, to go over the head of ones immediate superior without even informing them.  Usually the result is "Why did you come to me with this?  Go talk to them, then come to me."  Yes it is possible that she didn't even send the request to Elthina.  But I don't believe this is the case.

All fair points, and in general, I agree.  Here, however, I think we see in early Act 3 that Meredith is not exactly the biggest fan of Elthinna.  I can see her going right to the Divine with that.

I'll also add, given the number of blood mages we run into during the game - which only gets worse in Act 3 - was consideration of the Rite so "out there"?

[Conduit0]

stobie wrote...

At some point, doesn't Anders attempt to talk to Elthina? Isn't that when he's planting his bomb? He says he wants to give her another chance, or something like that? And she - shock - waffles.

I will say, both with Anders and Merrill, I never really understood what they were after. What he does just seems to make things worse for all mages, & what she does seems destined to haul in a demon. If you're involved with either, it means they're putting their lover in a position of having to kill them, potentially. Merrill isn't sneaky about it - Anders does deceive you, if only to keep you out of it. But it is rather unkind of them, considering what you've already lost. Curious that she can destroy the thing she wants to save, her clan, as he can threaten the people he wants to save, the mages. (I adore the clan - that's not happening.)


eta:  The terrorist - freedom fighter is distinction based solely on which side you're on. (as in, George Washington viewed by old british eyes)   What I cared about was friendship (or love) angle.  I sided with him, no matter what, because I understood, just as I did with Merrill, but it's a little weird to have no real discussion after, or any relationship changes.

Well, at the very least in Merril's case, she knew what she was doing was risky that there was likely a high price to pay for it. What she never considered was not that she might be possessed and Hawke would be forced to kill her, but that someone else besides her would be the one to pay the price. As far as Merril was concerned, it was her life and if she wanted to risk it on the slim chance that she could help her people, than it was her life to risk, it didn't dawn on her how her choices could impact other people and cause them to suffer because of her.