1927 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well.. we know where Orsino got it, and we can deduce that it is Blood Magic. Where Quentin got it, is a mystery though.

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. we know where Orsino got it, and we can deduce that it is Blood Magic. Where Quentin got it, is a mystery though.

Probably found it as a surprise in his cereals.

[Sad Dragon]

Koyasha wrote...

If it happened that they simply woke up one morning and thought this would be a fine day to use the Rite of Annulment, it wouldn't really fulfill the requirement that the person considers the Circle irredeemably corrupted.  Or, if they believed it to be so with no evidence, that they were completely unfit for their position.  At minimum the Divine would strip that person of their position, and at most probably have them executed for abuse of power.

Oh I'm not arguing that they wouldnt be unfit for the position, what I am wondering is simply could it be done. And if so, is it leagal and if it is -- would it really be abuse of power?

- The Sad Dragon

[Rifneno]

AlexXIV wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

The First Enchanter a blood mage that turns himself into a fleshy monstrosity,

Are we to infer that Quentin or Orsino got their hands on the information that the Warden obtained from the lost thaig of Amgarrak about the Harvesters?

That information may also be found elsewhere. Like Tevinter, where the mage assisting the Dwarves in Amgarrak came from. No matter what information, the First Enchanter of the circle is a Maleficar, that alone is probably enough to warrant an annulment.

Kirkwall was part of Tevinter at that time, wasn't it? One of their greatest cities.

There is no way for us to know what kind of knowledge Orsino had and where from. We have to assume he knew how to turn into a harvester and that he thought it was a good idea.

Also it may be that GoA and WH are not canon, so never really happened.

If WH isn't canon, it may be the most pointless thing in the history of gaming.  Anyway, I'm also quite interested in how he became a Harvester but I think before we put much thought into it we should ask Mr. Gaider if that was indeed a harvester as we see in GoA or if they just wanted to reuse the model because it's too awesome to only use once and in a DLC.

Hopefully he's still occasionally checking the thread.  

[IanPolaris]

Koyasha wrote...

Now as we know there are indeed rules that the templar must abide to -- such as who they can and can not make Tranquil -- I assum there are quite stric rules for under what circumstances the Right of Annulment can be invoked and if these criteria are not met, it would be invoked illegaly. That wouldnt mean they wouldnt follow through with the Annulment mind you, just that they are doing so illegaly.

Exactly which is why I consider DG's declaration that Meridith's order was legal to be a blatent authorial "ass-pull" in contravention of prior game lore.  If the Knight-Commander who runs the Templars can order the most problematic and extreme use (abuse) of that power with no oversight, then the entire notion that the Templars have to follow rules and are held in check by the Clergy is nothing but a sick joke.

We know (or at least it's strongly implied) that Meridith asked for the Rite in Act Three and the Grand Cleric turned her down.  Given that, the person requesting authority to use force should NEVER be the one that can authorize it under any circumstances.  That's basic check-and-balances.

Until DG changed the lore, the Rite of Annulment was pretty clearly IMO a power reserved for the Clergy (and most senior clergy at that) because it reflected the most blunt and blantent use of Templar power and (quite reasonably) the Chantry wanted to keep that power for themselves.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Sad Dragon wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

If it happened that they simply woke up one morning and thought this would be a fine day to use the Rite of Annulment, it wouldn't really fulfill the requirement that the person considers the Circle irredeemably corrupted.  Or, if they believed it to be so with no evidence, that they were completely unfit for their position.  At minimum the Divine would strip that person of their position, and at most probably have them executed for abuse of power.

Oh I'm not arguing that they wouldnt be unfit for the position, what I am wondering is simply could it be done. And if so, is it leagal and if it is -- would it really be abuse of power?

- The Sad Dragon

Indeed which is why I regard DG's latest as an overt 'ass-pull'.  If Templars do indeed have the authority in absence of the grand-cleric to use even the most extreme measures under any circumstance (which is essentially what DG has said) then there is no real limit on Templar power at all....and the Chantry wonders why the Circles all rose up?  Idiots.

-Polaris

[stobie]

Could the old lady cleric be a sort of counterpart to Hawke? You're both caught in the middle. She then leaves it in the hands of the Maker, which sounds nice, but is kind of abdicating your own responsibility (in theory, Maker-given) and even making no choice *is* making a choice. Anyway - you have to pick, & in the end, it doesn't really matter which side you choose. She refuses, & dies, so ultimately, the fact you're willing to throw yourself into the chaos is the determining factor - and she's basically evidence of what happens if you stay benign in a chaotic world.

Going through it again, I can't see any evidence that the GC has negative intent - she just turns her back (literally) on trouble and walks away, while people go nuts around her. Hawke is the sane figure, too, without the Warden's huge deciding power, and your friends all seem to be a bit peculiar around *you.* Even Varrick gets you into trouble with the Deep Roads expedition. Her friends & allies go nuts, too (I'm looking at you, you vicious hag, Petrice!) You can either slap them, kill them, or support them, whereas she does nothing.

So I guess the Maker, iow Bioware, expects us to make choices & fling ourselves in, rather than just sit back & follow some predetermined path. Which is nice, really. I guess that was Flemeth's point. Dragons are not only witty, but wise!

[Rifneno]

stobie wrote...

So I guess the Maker, iow Bioware, expects us to make choices & fling ourselves in, rather than just sit back & follow some predetermined path.

I'm sorry, you must be in the wrong forum.  This one is for Dragon Age 2: No Choices Matter.

[Darth Krytie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

Now as we know there are indeed rules that the templar must abide to -- such as who they can and can not make Tranquil -- I assum there are quite stric rules for under what circumstances the Right of Annulment can be invoked and if these criteria are not met, it would be invoked illegaly. That wouldnt mean they wouldnt follow through with the Annulment mind you, just that they are doing so illegaly.

Exactly which is why I consider DG's declaration that Meridith's order was legal to be a blatent authorial "ass-pull" in contravention of prior game lore.  If the Knight-Commander who runs the Templars can order the most problematic and extreme use (abuse) of that power with no oversight, then the entire notion that the Templars have to follow rules and are held in check by the Clergy is nothing but a sick joke.

We know (or at least it's strongly implied) that Meridith asked for the Rite in Act Three and the Grand Cleric turned her down.  Given that, the person requesting authority to use force should NEVER be the one that can authorize it under any circumstances.  That's basic check-and-balances.

Until DG changed the lore, the Rite of Annulment was pretty clearly IMO a power reserved for the Clergy (and most senior clergy at that) because it reflected the most blunt and blantent use of Templar power and (quite reasonably) the Chantry wanted to keep that power for themselves.

-Polaris

DG didn't change the lore. I read the same codex entries as you did. And you're clearly not looking at the source of the codex entries. A Chantry Historian is not going to list contingency plans. The codex entry detailled only how the Rite of Annulment came into existence and why. It doesn't even list the process of how it's supposed to work. And, like many other laws in or real world, from the time of its inception and the current age, it can be refined and further regulated and other such things.

And if you're gonna drag DA:O into it, the big difference is the Grand Cleric for that particular circle is ALIVE. As are many other clergy.

In this case, the Grand Cleric is dead. The Chantry is gone. Most authority figures have greater leeway during times of emergency.

Also, you're missing  a fine point. It's also a judgement call. You seem to be conflating the "legality" of her ability to make the decision and the "rightness of the decision". The Rite is called when someone deems a Circle to be irredeemable. Her judgement is not sound. She's going to follow the letter of the law, not the spirit.

As an aside, it's really annoying for you to claim a greater knowledge of this canon based on a few measly paragraphs which weren't that detailed written-in game-by people who wouldn't put in the detail you are assuming than the guy who helped create the game and universe.

Your. Opinion. Is. Wrong. Accept it. Embrace it.

You are beating a dead horse. He's passed on! This horse is no more! He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker!  He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! If you hadn't brought it up every five seconds, he'd be pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, He's shuffled off  his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-HORSE!!

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 04 avril 2011 - 07:41 .

[IanPolaris]

Darth Krytie wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

Now as we know there are indeed rules that the templar must abide to -- such as who they can and can not make Tranquil -- I assum there are quite stric rules for under what circumstances the Right of Annulment can be invoked and if these criteria are not met, it would be invoked illegaly. That wouldnt mean they wouldnt follow through with the Annulment mind you, just that they are doing so illegaly.

Exactly which is why I consider DG's declaration that Meridith's order was legal to be a blatent authorial "ass-pull" in contravention of prior game lore.  If the Knight-Commander who runs the Templars can order the most problematic and extreme use (abuse) of that power with no oversight, then the entire notion that the Templars have to follow rules and are held in check by the Clergy is nothing but a sick joke.

We know (or at least it's strongly implied) that Meridith asked for the Rite in Act Three and the Grand Cleric turned her down.  Given that, the person requesting authority to use force should NEVER be the one that can authorize it under any circumstances.  That's basic check-and-balances.

Until DG changed the lore, the Rite of Annulment was pretty clearly IMO a power reserved for the Clergy (and most senior clergy at that) because it reflected the most blunt and blantent use of Templar power and (quite reasonably) the Chantry wanted to keep that power for themselves.

-Polaris

DG didn't change the lore. I read the same codex entries as you did. And you're clearly not looking at the source of the codex entries. A Chantry Historian is not going to list contingency plans. The codex entry detailled only how the Rite of Annulment came into existence and why. It doesn't even list the process of how it's supposed to work. And, like many other laws in or real world, from the time of its inception and the current age, it can be refined and further regulated and other such things.

And if you're gonna drag DA:O into it, the big difference is the Grand Cleric for that particular circle is ALIVE. As are many other clergy.

In this case, the Grand Cleric is dead. The Chantry is gone. Most authority figures have greater leeway during times of emergency.

Also, you're missing  a fine point. It's also a judgement call. You seem to be conflating the "legality" of her ability to make the decision and the "rightness of the decision". The Rite is called when someone deems a Circle to be irredeemable. Her judgement is not sound. She's going to follow the letter of the law, not the spirit.

As an aside, it's really annoying for you to claim a greater knowledge of this canon based on a few measly paragraphs which weren't that detailed written-in game-by people who wouldn't put in the detail you are assuming than the guy who helped create the game and universe.

Your. Opinion. Is. Wrong. Accept it. Embrace it.

You are beating a dead horse. He's passed on! This horse is no more! He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker!  He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! If you hadn't brought it up every five seconds, he'd be pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, He's shuffled off  his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-HORSE!!

No.  It's a blatent authorial ass-pull because it's inconsistant with the prior lore and game play to this point.  Does DG have the right to make that change?  Certainly, but I will continue to call it for what it is.

-Polaris

[Darth Krytie]

IanPolaris wrote...


No.  It's a blatent authorial ass-pull because it's inconsistant with the prior lore and game play to this point.  Does DG have the right to make that change?  Certainly, but I will continue to call it for what it is.

-Polaris

And you can make this sound, clearly more right than the creator's, judgement, based on incomplete and vague information. You must be some kind of wizard.

[Rifneno]

Really, I think it just makes the Chantry look worse.

Elthina was an old woman.  She could've keeled over from a heartattack or something.  A million things can go wrong at that age, with that level of medical technology.  She and everyone else knew that if--no, WHEN the inevitable occurs, Meredith would invoke the Right of Annulment.  I really do hope that Andrestism (sp?) has a form of hell, because Elthina doesn't deserve a peaceful slumber in oblivion.

[stobie]

Rifneno wrote...

stobie wrote...

So I guess the Maker, iow Bioware, expects us to make choices & fling ourselves in, rather than just sit back & follow some predetermined path.

I'm sorry, you must be in the wrong forum.  This one is for Dragon Age 2: No Choices Matter.

I keep forgetting how negative & cynical we're supposed to be. So sorry.

[IanPolaris]

Darth Krytie wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


No.  It's a blatent authorial ass-pull because it's inconsistant with the prior lore and game play to this point.  Does DG have the right to make that change?  Certainly, but I will continue to call it for what it is.

-Polaris

And you can make this sound, clearly more right than the creator's, judgement, based on incomplete and vague information. You must be some kind of wizard.

Not a wizard.  Only someone that cares about game verisimilude and general consistancy.  Mind you I have no objection that Meridith called for the Rite and I am not suprised that all the Templars followed it, legal or not.  She was the de-facto Vis-Count of Kirkwall AND no one crosses her and lives (including her own templars).

However, DG's new lore is inconsistant with at least the strong impliction (at the very least!) of prior game-play, codex entries as they are read in the context of western history and culture (which forms the basis for the world of Thedas).  Does DG have the right to make that call?  Of course.  But changing the lore to win a point is a bad sign IMHO.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

Really, I think it just makes the Chantry look worse.

Elthina was an old woman.  She could've keeled over from a heartattack or something.  A million things can go wrong at that age, with that level of medical technology.  She and everyone else knew that if--no, WHEN the inevitable occurs, Meredith would invoke the Right of Annulment.  I really do hope that Andrestism (sp?) has a form of hell, because Elthina doesn't deserve a peaceful slumber in oblivion.

Again, this is why DG's new lore doesn't make any sense!  Grand Clerics are almost always going to be older ladies (in the same way that Cardinals and Arch-Bishops are almost always going to be older) since it takes time to rise to this level (usually).  If all it takes is an old lady to have a heart-attack or even choke on her food in the morning to give the local Knight Command (who isn't even a member of the clergy!) total authority even over other surviving clergy (in the matter of the Rite of Annulment) then there is no real check at all....and as idiotic as I think the Chantry is, I have trouble seeing them at *that* idiotic.  That's a big reason why I regard the new lore as an "ass-pull"

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Polaris, you don't really know a lot about power and how it works do you? If I have to ask for emergency rights(clearance/allowance/whatever) from one specific person, and that specific person just happens to die during the emergency, I can take that power myself. I would probably have to answer for my actions on a later date, but just because the person I need to ask permission from is dead, does not make the emergency disappear.

Meredith did what any authority would have done. She took a decission based on the circumstances. This decission may not have been what the Chantry would have wanted, and if we didn't end up killing her, she would probably have to answer to the next Grand Cleric or even the Divine herself (or just go totally bat**** insane).
What else was Meredith to do? She was of the opinion that the Circle was corrupted beyond redemption. A very dire situation. And the one person she needs permission from, recently ceased to exist. Should she just sit on her hands and wait for it all to blow over? No. Wether or not you agree with her actions is completely irrelevant, she is well within her power to do as she did.

[Sad Dragon]

Darth Krytie wrote...

You are beating a dead horse. He's passed on! This horse is no more! He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker!  He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! If you hadn't brought it up every five seconds, he'd be pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, He's shuffled off  his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-HORSE!!

Made me smile, love that sketch

- TSD

[Camenae]

You are free to think that Meredith calling the Rite was wrong. I don't understand why it's necessary to say that it is against protocol? Especially since we have confirmation that, like it or not, it's not against protocol?

Just like in real life you are free to disagree with a law, but you can't say "it's not the law" because until the lawmakers change it, it is the law.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Polaris, you don't really know a lot about power and how it works do you? If I have to ask for emergency rights(clearance/allowance/whatever) from one specific person, and that specific person just happens to die during the emergency, I can take that power myself. I would probably have to answer for my actions on a later date, but just because the person I need to ask permission from is dead, does not make the emergency disappear.

Meredith did what any authority would have done. She took a decission based on the circumstances. This decission may not have been what the Chantry would have wanted, and if we didn't end up killing her, she would probably have to answer to the next Grand Cleric or even the Divine herself (or just go totally bat**** insane).
What else was Meredith to do? She was of the opinion that the Circle was corrupted beyond redemption. A very dire situation. And the one person she needs permission from, recently ceased to exist. Should she just sit on her hands and wait for it all to blow over? No. Wether or not you agree with her actions is completely irrelevant, she is well within her power to do as she did.

Actually that is NOT how it usually works.  I will agree, however, that it often does work the way you say in practice, but the fact is that superior authority (the Divine herself) was still able to be contacted.  Again, if you read my post above, I take no issue with Meridith's actual action.  They are perfectly in character for her and the Templars would follow her technical legality or no.  There are many cases where commanders make "field decisions" that mght be technically illegal.  I also point out that all the clergy almost certainly did not die in the bombing AND that unlike say KC Gregoire (who would have been far more justified in making such a field decision), Meridith was still in contact with the Chantry....just not the Kirkwall chantry.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Camenae wrote...

You are free to think that Meredith calling the Rite was wrong. I don't understand why it's necessary to say that it is against protocol? Especially since we have confirmation that, like it or not, it's not against protocol?

Just like in real life you are free to disagree with a law, but you can't say "it's not the law" because until the lawmakers change it, it is the law.

Because it's blatently inconsist with what we were told the protocol was merely 7 years prior during the blight in Fereldan by another Knight Commander.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Polaris, you don't really know a lot about power and how it works do you? If I have to ask for emergency rights(clearance/allowance/whatever) from one specific person, and that specific person just happens to die during the emergency, I can take that power myself. I would probably have to answer for my actions on a later date, but just because the person I need to ask permission from is dead, does not make the emergency disappear.

Meredith did what any authority would have done. She took a decission based on the circumstances. This decission may not have been what the Chantry would have wanted, and if we didn't end up killing her, she would probably have to answer to the next Grand Cleric or even the Divine herself (or just go totally bat**** insane).
What else was Meredith to do? She was of the opinion that the Circle was corrupted beyond redemption. A very dire situation. And the one person she needs permission from, recently ceased to exist. Should she just sit on her hands and wait for it all to blow over? No. Wether or not you agree with her actions is completely irrelevant, she is well within her power to do as she did.

Clearly you don't know a whole lot about power works either.  Let's say the president of the US is visiting a nuclear-armed military base, which is hit by an attack that kills him and disables all their outside communications.  The base commander then goes, "Those damned Russians!  Launch our nukes at the Kremlin!"  ...  Do you think that's how it works?  Because if so, I sure hope you never wind up a base commander anywhere.

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Really, I think it just makes the Chantry look worse.

Elthina was an old woman.  She could've keeled over from a heartattack or something.  A million things can go wrong at that age, with that level of medical technology.  She and everyone else knew that if--no, WHEN the inevitable occurs, Meredith would invoke the Right of Annulment.  I really do hope that Andrestism (sp?) has a form of hell, because Elthina doesn't deserve a peaceful slumber in oblivion.

I agree. Regardless of the legality and the lore behind the Rite of Annulment, Meredith wants to murder all the mages in Kirkwall.

The Kirkwall Circle is the only standing Circle in all the Free Marches, with the destruction of the Starkhaven Circle. It's safe to say it has a large population, likely a great deal of men, women, and children possessing magical ability. Out of all these people we never see, how many does Hawke actually encounter? Safe to say that it's a small fraction since most of them are locked in the Gallows Prison. Is it hundreds? Thousands? It's impossible to say with any degree of accuracy unless we get further information, but Meredith is going to condemn all these mages to execution. The mage ending specifically references "many survivors" while the templar ending excludes its mention.

Meredith assumed power, and she was looking to enact the Rite of Annulment. Anders actions gave her an opening to annihilate the entire Circle, and what does she do about Anders - the man responsible for actually attacking the Kirkwall Chantry and killing the Grand Cleric Elthina? Nothing. She used the actions of a former Grey Warden to take away peoples' lives.

[Darth Krytie]

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

You are free to think that Meredith calling the Rite was wrong. I don't understand why it's necessary to say that it is against protocol? Especially since we have confirmation that, like it or not, it's not against protocol?

Just like in real life you are free to disagree with a law, but you can't say "it's not the law" because until the lawmakers change it, it is the law.

Because it's blatently inconsist with what we were told the protocol was merely 7 years prior during the blight in Fereldan by another Knight Commander.

-Polaris

There is a brick wall where your head should be.

The DA:O situation and the DA:2 situation were clearly DIFFERENT. One has a living Grand Cleric and a Chantry which was not all rubble and one has a Chantry that is currently scattered all over Kirkwall with a dead Grand Cleric beside. You can say there must be living members of the chantry left alive in Kirkwall, but you'd probably have to unearth them first. When it comes to the Rite, there must be emergency powers to declare it or the mages could just assassignate the Grand Cleric and run amok until the messengers got back from god knows where to deal with it.

[Darth Krytie]

Rifneno wrote...

Clearly you don't know a whole lot about power works either.  Let's say the president of the US is visiting a nuclear-armed military base, which is hit by an attack that kills him and disables all their outside communications.  The base commander then goes, "Those damned Russians!  Launch our nukes at the Kremlin!"  ...  Do you think that's how it works?  Because if so, I sure hope you never wind up a base commander anywhere.

That's a pretty bad analogy. It's not an equal situation. Firstly, there's no law in the US that allows anyone to exterminate a whole people if we think they're all irredeemable. It goes against our Constitution. Secondly...there is no secondly. That's just a bad analogy all over.

[Esther]

Anders blew up many innocents, among them the Grand Cleric.  

The Grand Cleric.
The one person who might have had enough influence to solve the situation in a pieceful manner, loved and respected by everyone.
The one person who could have taken sides rather than refusing to adapt any position, thus contributing to the mages' situation.

Many others stood idly by, watching or not even watching, doing nothing. Is standing idly by being innocent in this case? 

A tragedy was necessary to finally overcome this inactivity. Anders' deed seemed not justified but inevitable.   

The one thing which I found much worse was how Anders betrayed his companions if completing his quest, how he occulted his dark plan, accomplishing it behind his friends' back, involving them without their knowledge...
Although he later on took all the blame...