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[AlexXIV]

Darth Krytie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The chain of command thing is understandable. The Grand Cleric was dead, Meredith in charge. I would even bet money that this was Anders reasoning to kill the Grand Cleric because she was probably the only one who kept Meredith from annulling the Circle earlier. Or at least killing Orsino earlier.

Anyway, to invoke the Right of Annullment a Circle must be declared beyond redemption or beyond hope or something. But taking Anders' crime as an excuse to call the Circle hopeless? I don't see a base for that. Especially since Orsino offers that every mage can be taken and the whole Circle searched without resistance.

I mean he sees that Meredith has no reason to call the Right, and he is careful enough to not give her one, in contrary. And she still goes through with it. And Cullen follows. That's the point I have to say, ok in that case my Hawke will support the mages. Because what the templars do is wrong. Not in general maybe, but here and now.

You're conflating Meredith's legal ability to make the judgement with her judgement being sound. To state a Circle is lost is a subjective opinion. She does declare it lost and beyond redemption. She has the legal right--IN THIS SITUATION--to make that decision. It doesn't make her declaration "right" or "reasonable". Her decision is clearly wrong and her desire to kill the mages clearly unjust.

In that case you really have to say that the whole Right of Annullment is a rather questionable thing. I mean if you have no rules or guidelines for the use of it, then whoever becomes Knight Commander only needs to get rid of the Grand Cleric to wipe out a Circle. Not to mention what it says about the rights of mages. Which equal zero, since they don't even have the right to live. Because no matter what they do it can be decided they all need to die. 

[IanPolaris]

Darth Krytie wrote...

You're conflating Meredith's legal ability to make the judgement with her judgement being sound. To state a Circle is lost is a subjective opinion. She does declare it lost and beyond redemption. She has the legal right--IN THIS SITUATION--to make that decision. It doesn't make her declaration "right" or "reasonable". Her decision is clearly wrong and her desire to kill the mages clearly unjust.

Until DG explicitly stated otherwise, the overwhelming game play and game lore indicated (at the very least) that she didn't have that right.  The Grand Cleric has clerics and Mothers serving under her in a well defined clerical chain of command.  One of THEM became the Grand Cleric (Acting) the moment Elthina died....until the Divine appointed somone new of course.  Not all of them were in the Chantry.  Not by a long chalk.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 04 avril 2011 - 08:46 .

[Aldandil]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A Mother of the Chantry is not at all close to the "paygrade" needed to call an annulment. If the Grand Cleric is dead, the obvious person authorized to call the Rite would be the second party of the decission making, the Knight-Commander.

Two persons are needed for an annulment to be carried out, the Grand Cleric and the Knight-Commander. One requests it, the other authorizes it. If one or the other dies, it would naturally just surviving one, who would make the call. (this is all based on the Knight-Commander being able to deny an annulment if a Grand Cleric tasks him with one).

So on a nuclear sub (and the comparison is apt given the extreme nature of the Rite of Annulment), if the XO dies, the captain has sole authority over the sub's nukes?

NOT IN YOUR LIFE.

The confirming command code authority falls down to the NEXT officer in the chain of command (usually the Navigator or Chief Engineer).

Same, same.

-Polaris

Except the next officer in line for managing the Circle is the KC. Where does it say that the Rite of Annulment lies with the Clergy? We know that lies with the Grand Cleric normally, not how the chain of command looks. We don't know what contingency plans there are. None of the sources you have read brings this up. None of them mentions the Circle. Furthermore, that the command of the Circle would fall to the KC makes perfect sense. In an organisation which is based in different regions would have to let the emergency executive power remain in those regions. Anything else would be stupid. That's why the power of the Rite of Annulment doesn't move up to the Divine. Once again, since you don't know what the chain of command for the circle looks like, nor the election process of a grand cleric or the contingency plans in case of emergency. You've got nothing making it even remotely plausible that they changed Chantry hierarchy for this decision. The assumption that they practice balance of power is also something you've taken out of the air, a lot of organisations and democratic countries don't follow that principle.

[Darth Krytie]

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The chain of command thing is understandable. The Grand Cleric was dead, Meredith in charge. I would even bet money that this was Anders reasoning to kill the Grand Cleric because she was probably the only one who kept Meredith from annulling the Circle earlier. Or at least killing Orsino earlier.

Anyway, to invoke the Right of Annullment a Circle must be declared beyond redemption or beyond hope or something. But taking Anders' crime as an excuse to call the Circle hopeless? I don't see a base for that. Especially since Orsino offers that every mage can be taken and the whole Circle searched without resistance.

I mean he sees that Meredith has no reason to call the Right, and he is careful enough to not give her one, in contrary. And she still goes through with it. And Cullen follows. That's the point I have to say, ok in that case my Hawke will support the mages. Because what the templars do is wrong. Not in general maybe, but here and now.

You're conflating Meredith's legal ability to make the judgement with her judgement being sound. To state a Circle is lost is a subjective opinion. She does declare it lost and beyond redemption. She has the legal right--IN THIS SITUATION--to make that decision. It doesn't make her declaration "right" or "reasonable". Her decision is clearly wrong and her desire to kill the mages clearly unjust.

In that case you really have to say that the whole Right of Annullment is a rather questionable thing. I mean if you have no rules or guidelines for the use of it, then whoever becomes Knight Commander only needs to get rid of the Grand Cleric to wipe out a Circle. Not to mention what it says about the rights of mages. Which equal zero, since they don't even have the right to live. Because no matter what they do it can be decided they all need to die. 

That, at least, wasn't really up for debate. The Rite of Annulment is a terrible thing indeed.

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...
In that case you really have to say that the whole Right of Annullment is a rather questionable thing. I mean if you have no rules or guidelines for the use of it, then whoever becomes Knight Commander only needs to get rid of the Grand Cleric to wipe out a Circle. Not to mention what it says about the rights of mages. Which equal zero, since they don't even have the right to live. Because no matter what they do it can be decided they all need to die. 

Exactly so.  If mages live solely on the sufference of the Knight Commander (since the KC has total power if he can kill/remove the Grand Cleric apparently) then mages are complete chattle with less rights than a stray dog.  And the chantry wonders why post Meridith all the circles rebelled.......

-Polaris

[Aldandil]

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The chain of command thing is understandable. The Grand Cleric was dead, Meredith in charge. I would even bet money that this was Anders reasoning to kill the Grand Cleric because she was probably the only one who kept Meredith from annulling the Circle earlier. Or at least killing Orsino earlier.


Anyway, to invoke the Right of Annullment a Circle must be declared beyond redemption or beyond hope or something. But taking Anders' crime as an excuse to call the Circle hopeless? I don't see a base for that. Especially since Orsino offers that every mage can be taken and the whole Circle searched without resistance.

I mean he sees that Meredith has no reason to call the Right, and he is careful enough to not give her one, in contrary. And she still goes through with it. And Cullen follows. That's the point I have to say, ok in that case my Hawke will support the mages. Because what the templars do is wrong. Not in general maybe, but here and now.

You're conflating Meredith's legal ability to make the judgement with her judgement being sound. To state a Circle is lost is a subjective opinion. She does declare it lost and beyond redemption. She has the legal right--IN THIS SITUATION--to make that decision. It doesn't make her declaration "right" or "reasonable". Her decision is clearly wrong and her desire to kill the mages clearly unjust.

In that case you really have to say that the whole Right of Annullment is a rather questionable thing. I mean if you have no rules or guidelines for the use of it, then whoever becomes Knight Commander only needs to get rid of the Grand Cleric to wipe out a Circle. Not to mention what it says about the rights of mages. Which equal zero, since they don't even have the right to live. Because no matter what they do it can be decided they all need to die. 

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Circle is quite questionable. DG explicitly said that that was the only thing a KC had to do to get rid of a Circle. Now, why would s/he want to do that (unless s/he was crazy paranoid).

Also, what's stopping Obama nuking any given country?

Modifié par Aldandil, 04 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[AlexXIV]

Darth Krytie wrote...
That, at least, wasn't really up for debate. The Rite of Annulment is a terrible thing indeed.

Well to me personally the question whather it is illegal or immoral goes in the same direction. Because if something is immoral it should also be illegal. And if something is legal despite being immoral every good person should speak against this law. That's a basic rule in our western civilisation and politics. And thinking.

[IanPolaris]

Aldandil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A Mother of the Chantry is not at all close to the "paygrade" needed to call an annulment. If the Grand Cleric is dead, the obvious person authorized to call the Rite would be the second party of the decission making, the Knight-Commander.

Two persons are needed for an annulment to be carried out, the Grand Cleric and the Knight-Commander. One requests it, the other authorizes it. If one or the other dies, it would naturally just surviving one, who would make the call. (this is all based on the Knight-Commander being able to deny an annulment if a Grand Cleric tasks him with one).

So on a nuclear sub (and the comparison is apt given the extreme nature of the Rite of Annulment), if the XO dies, the captain has sole authority over the sub's nukes?

NOT IN YOUR LIFE.

The confirming command code authority falls down to the NEXT officer in the chain of command (usually the Navigator or Chief Engineer).

Same, same.

-Polaris

Except the next officer in line for managing the Circle is the KC. Where does it say that the Rite of Annulment lies with the Clergy? We know that lies with the Grand Cleric normally, not how the chain of command looks. We don't know what contingency plans there are. None of the sources you have read brings this up. None of them mentions the Circle. Furthermore, that the command of the Circle would fall to the KC makes perfect sense. In an organisation which is based in different regions would have to let the emergency executive power remain in those regions. Anything else would be stupid. That's why the power of the Rite of Annulment doesn't move up to the Divine. Once again, since you don't know what the chain of command for the circle looks like, nor the election process of a grand cleric or the contingency plans in case of emergency. You've got nothing making it even remotely plausible that they changed Chantry hierarchy for this decision. The assumption that they practice balance of power is also something you've taken out of the air, a lot of organisations and democratic countries don't follow that principle.

Not true...at least not until DG changed the lore.  Until then, it was well established that there were two parallel chains of command.  The psuedo-military Templar Chain of command (headed by the Knight Vigilant) and was subservient to the overall Chantry Chain of Command (called a Heirarchy but a hiearchy is nothing more than a fancy name for a chain of command) of clergy headed ultimate by the Divine.

The Rite of Annulment has to be requested by the Knight Commander (Templar Chain of Command) and approved by the Grand-Cleric (Clerical Chain of command).  Meridith isn't supposed to be able to turn "both keys" an assume both chains of command....or at least she wasn't until 36 hours ago.  Gregoire even under more dire condidtons didn't have and never believed he had that right.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

Aldandil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The chain of command thing is understandable. The Grand Cleric was dead, Meredith in charge. I would even bet money that this was Anders reasoning to kill the Grand Cleric because she was probably the only one who kept Meredith from annulling the Circle earlier. Or at least killing Orsino earlier.


Anyway, to invoke the Right of Annullment a Circle must be declared beyond redemption or beyond hope or something. But taking Anders' crime as an excuse to call the Circle hopeless? I don't see a base for that. Especially since Orsino offers that every mage can be taken and the whole Circle searched without resistance.

I mean he sees that Meredith has no reason to call the Right, and he is careful enough to not give her one, in contrary. And she still goes through with it. And Cullen follows. That's the point I have to say, ok in that case my Hawke will support the mages. Because what the templars do is wrong. Not in general maybe, but here and now.

You're conflating Meredith's legal ability to make the judgement with her judgement being sound. To state a Circle is lost is a subjective opinion. She does declare it lost and beyond redemption. She has the legal right--IN THIS SITUATION--to make that decision. It doesn't make her declaration "right" or "reasonable". Her decision is clearly wrong and her desire to kill the mages clearly unjust.

In that case you really have to say that the whole Right of Annullment is a rather questionable thing. I mean if you have no rules or guidelines for the use of it, then whoever becomes Knight Commander only needs to get rid of the Grand Cleric to wipe out a Circle. Not to mention what it says about the rights of mages. Which equal zero, since they don't even have the right to live. Because no matter what they do it can be decided they all need to die. 

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Circle is quite questionable. DG explicitly said that that was the only thing a KC had to do to get rid of a Circle. Now, why would s/he want to do that (unless s/he was crazy paranoid).

Also, what's stopping Obama nuking any given country?

Same reason why Anders blew up the Chantry. Because he/she may think that the only way to save the world would be to kill all mages. Which is not really a stretch considering Chantry lore.

[Aldandil]

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...
That, at least, wasn't really up for debate. The Rite of Annulment is a terrible thing indeed.

Well to me personally the question whather it is illegal or immoral goes in the same direction. Because if something is immoral it should also be illegal. And if something is legal despite being immoral every good person should speak against this law. That's a basic rule in our western civilisation and politics. And thinking.

There are a lot of things in the world of Dragon Age that is immoral. I'd speak against Qunari laws before I start with the Circle.

[IanPolaris]

Aldandil wrote...

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Circle is quite questionable. DG explicitly said that that was the only thing a KC had to do to get rid of a Circle. Now, why would s/he want to do that (unless s/he was crazy paranoid).

Also, what's stopping Obama nuking any given country?

The President needs approval from congress to authorize a nuke launch and I can see the Pentagon being very meticulous about that.  Congress has a select group of people that can be called 24/7 to give POTUS that permission on a moments notice, but permission DOES have to be given.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

Aldandil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...
That, at least, wasn't really up for debate. The Rite of Annulment is a terrible thing indeed.

Well to me personally the question whather it is illegal or immoral goes in the same direction. Because if something is immoral it should also be illegal. And if something is legal despite being immoral every good person should speak against this law. That's a basic rule in our western civilisation and politics. And thinking.

There are a lot of things in the world of Dragon Age that is immoral. I'd speak against Qunari laws before I start with the Circle.

Well I'd speak against all at once. Also against slavery in some countries.

[Darth Krytie]

@Ian. You say changed, I say clarified. Do you earn Internet cake for mentioning DG's "ass pull" in every single solitary post you make in this thread? Because it's really obnoxious. Instead of just admitting that you. were. wrong. with. your. assumptions. you feel the need to bludgeon everyone with your superior knowledge of what DG thought as he wrote DA:O? Well, great PATS FOR PATRICK.

Now, can we move on to a new topic? Or, better yet, the actual topic of this actual thread?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darth Krytie wrote...
Now, can we move on to a new topic? Or, better yet, the actual topic of this actual thread?

I think you should do that as clearly nothing is coming out of this particular discussion.

[Camenae]

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

[Sad Dragon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the Circle is quite questionable. DG explicitly said that that was the only thing a KC had to do to get rid of a Circle. Now, why would s/he want to do that (unless s/he was crazy paranoid).

Also, what's stopping Obama nuking any given country?

The President needs approval from congress to authorize a nuke launch and I can see the Pentagon being very meticulous about that.  Congress has a select group of people that can be called 24/7 to give POTUS that permission on a moments notice, but permission DOES have to be given.

-Polaris

This is essentially my question. Lore wise we know to little to say anything either way -- we can only speculate and as DG has stated how the chanrty/templars work then all we can do is buy it.

Im still wondering if there is a legality here though, or if it is more a "I have to do this now and will take the consequenses later"-approach. That's to say, Meredith took the only option she thought open to her (sure she was probably already nutts at this point but lets forget about that for now). She may have the right to give the word during the circumstances -- but that doesn't really mean she is acting leagaly. She could be ignoring protocolls and laws that are there to prevent people from calling the Right of Annulment every other day -- and she would pay the price for that later.

- TSD

[EmperorSahlertz]

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

Unless even the Tevinter circles are rebelling. In which case it would just be the Qunari saying: "That is what you get for your uncivilized view on magic. Now, submit to the Qun!"

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

Unless even the Tevinter circles are rebelling. In which case it would just be the Qunari saying: "That is what you get for your uncivilized view on magic. Now, submit to the Qun!"

Actually that's an interesting question. Would Tevinter mages rebel as well?
The devs, including David Gaider, did say that Tevinter is not *that* different from the others in that regard. Power is monopolized in the hands of a few mages who keep everyone else down.

Of course the Qunari would scoff and essentially say: "told you so".

[IanPolaris]

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

You laugh, but I fully expect a full fledged Qunari invasion within a month....two on the outside...of the outset of the magical civil war.  I don' think that the Qun will make any slack for Tevinter, though (why should they?).  I do think the Qun will leave the Anderfells/Grey Wardes alone if the Grey Wardens sit out since the Qunari clearly regard the Grey Wardens as basalit-an.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

Unless even the Tevinter circles are rebelling. In which case it would just be the Qunari saying: "That is what you get for your uncivilized view on magic. Now, submit to the Qun!"

Actually that's an interesting question. Would Tevinter mages rebel as well?
The devs, including David Gaider, did say that Tevinter is not *that* different from the others in that regard. Power is monopolized in the hands of a few mages who keep everyone else down.

Of course the Qunari would scoff and essentially say: "told you so".

No probably not. In Tevinter the mages are the ones in power anyway. And the templars at best some sort of bodyguard. Also they have their own Chantry. However, the Tevinters alone are probably not much of an obstacle for the Qunari so they would have their own problems without the rest of Thedas standing at their side in a war against the Qunari.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[Aldandil]

IanPolaris wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A Mother of the Chantry is not at all close to the "paygrade" needed to call an annulment. If the Grand Cleric is dead, the obvious person authorized to call the Rite would be the second party of the decission making, the Knight-Commander.

Two persons are needed for an annulment to be carried out, the Grand Cleric and the Knight-Commander. One requests it, the other authorizes it. If one or the other dies, it would naturally just surviving one, who would make the call. (this is all based on the Knight-Commander being able to deny an annulment if a Grand Cleric tasks him with one).

So on a nuclear sub (and the comparison is apt given the extreme nature of the Rite of Annulment), if the XO dies, the captain has sole authority over the sub's nukes?

NOT IN YOUR LIFE.

The confirming command code authority falls down to the NEXT officer in the chain of command (usually the Navigator or Chief Engineer).

Same, same.

-Polaris

Except the next officer in line for managing the Circle is the KC. Where does it say that the Rite of Annulment lies with the Clergy? We know that lies with the Grand Cleric normally, not how the chain of command looks. We don't know what contingency plans there are. None of the sources you have read brings this up. None of them mentions the Circle. Furthermore, that the command of the Circle would fall to the KC makes perfect sense. In an organisation which is based in different regions would have to let the emergency executive power remain in those regions. Anything else would be stupid. That's why the power of the Rite of Annulment doesn't move up to the Divine. Once again, since you don't know what the chain of command for the circle looks like, nor the election process of a grand cleric or the contingency plans in case of emergency. You've got nothing making it even remotely plausible that they changed Chantry hierarchy for this decision. The assumption that they practice balance of power is also something you've taken out of the air, a lot of organisations and democratic countries don't follow that principle.

Not true...at least not until DG changed the lore.  Until then, it was well established that there were two parallel chains of command.  The psuedo-military Templar Chain of command (headed by the Knight Vigilant) and was subservient to the overall Chantry Chain of Command (called a Heirarchy but a hiearchy is nothing more than a fancy name for a chain of command) of clergy headed ultimate by the Divine.

The Rite of Annulment has to be requested by the Knight Commander (Templar Chain of Command) and approved by the Grand-Cleric (Clerical Chain of command).  Meridith isn't supposed to be able to turn "both keys" an assume both chains of command....or at least she wasn't until 36 hours ago.  Gregoire even under more dire condidtons didn't have and never believed he had that right.

-Polaris

Separate hierarchies doesn't say anything about contingencies in case of death. Nor does it say anything about how decisions are being made, who has what kind of power, especially when you have a geographically decentralised office. If the local Head for BeliefCo Kirkwall gets , the Head of Personnel questions does get to give the employee who didn't show up for work for a week the sack, without consulting the John, CFO in Kirkwall, who is next in line to get promoted, even though he normally would have to consult with the highest ranking official. You're assuming that all organisations have chains of command that looks the same way, and there's no reason to do so. The facts available before DA2 got out (or before DG posted in this thread) don't make your interpretation of the chain of command the only possible one. You're making things up that never existed.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

Unless even the Tevinter circles are rebelling. In which case it would just be the Qunari saying: "That is what you get for your uncivilized view on magic. Now, submit to the Qun!"

Actually that's an interesting question. Would Tevinter mages rebel as well?
The devs, including David Gaider, did say that Tevinter is not *that* different from the others in that regard. Power is monopolized in the hands of a few mages who keep everyone else down.

Of course the Qunari would scoff and essentially say: "told you so".

I doubt it.  Whatever evils exist in the Tevinter system (and they are legion I'll give you), ulimately mages are controlled by other mages and that makes all the difference.  Every new mage/enchanter can dream of becoming a magister (even if it's realistically a crock) and mages rate above slaves.

Tevinter is an evil system no question, but it works and seems to work much better than the Andrastian system.

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

Not a wizard.  Only someone that cares about game verisimilude and general consistancy.  Mind you I have no objection that Meridith called for the Rite and I am not suprised that all the Templars followed it, legal or not.  She was the de-facto Vis-Count of Kirkwall AND no one crosses her and lives (including her own templars).

-Polaris

You do recall that she was willing to show mercy to members of the conspiracy? Suspending the templars and confining the mages to the their quarters is a far cry from killing anyone who crosses her. And that's crossing her in the worst way possible.

Not to play the devil's advocate but come on, you're laying it on a little thick.

[IanPolaris]

"Hiearchy" means chain of command. If the local Arch-bishop dies, then this spiriual duties fall on to the most senior bishop under him until the Pope can nominate a replacement. That's how heirarchies work. Until 36 hours ago anyway....

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

Unless even the Tevinter circles are rebelling. In which case it would just be the Qunari saying: "That is what you get for your uncivilized view on magic. Now, submit to the Qun!"

Actually that's an interesting question. Would Tevinter mages rebel as well?
The devs, including David Gaider, did say that Tevinter is not *that* different from the others in that regard. Power is monopolized in the hands of a few mages who keep everyone else down.

Of course the Qunari would scoff and essentially say: "told you so".

I doubt it.  Whatever evils exist in the Tevinter system (and they are legion I'll give you), ulimately mages are controlled by other mages and that makes all the difference.  Every new mage/enchanter can dream of becoming a magister (even if it's realistically a crock) and mages rate above slaves.

Tevinter is an evil system no question, but it works and seems to work much better than the Andrastian system.

-Polaris

Wether or not there is a chance to rise through the ranks, the rank and file mages of Tevinter are still confined within the Circle Towers and watched over by Templars. They got as much reason as the Chantry mages to rebel.