1927 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

[quote]ddv.rsa wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

Not a wizard.  Only someone that cares about game verisimilude and general consistancy.  Mind you I have no objection that Meridith called for the Rite and I am not suprised that all the Templars followed it, legal or not.  She was the de-facto Vis-Count of Kirkwall AND no one crosses her and lives (including her own templars).

-Polaris[/quote]

You do recall that she was willing to show mercy to members of the conspiracy? Suspending the templars and confining the mages to the their quarters is a far cry from killing anyone who crosses her. And that's crossing her in the worst way possible.

Not to play the devil's advocate but come on, you're laying it on a little thick.
[/quote]

Actually no she wasn't.  She wanted everyone dead.  It was Knight Captain Cullen that basically yelled at her enough to keep a small degree of sanity.  If you don't get Knight Captain Cullen to agree to ask for mercy, she kills them.

-Polaris



[/quote]

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wether or not there is a chance to rise through the ranks, the rank and file mages of Tevinter are still confined within the Circle Towers and watched over by Templars. They got as much reason as the Chantry mages to rebel.

Yes, but those Templars are regulated by MAGES.  You completely neglect the difference that makes in human nature.  A person will tolerate terrible conditions if they reasonably believe they have a fighting chance to be king of the moutain themselves one day....even if the chances are bad.

The fact that Magisters are mages makes all the difference in the world when it comes to what other mages will tolerate in such a situation.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

You laugh, but I fully expect a full fledged Qunari invasion within a month....two on the outside...of the outset of the magical civil war.  I don' think that the Qun will make any slack for Tevinter, though (why should they?).  I do think the Qun will leave the Anderfells/Grey Wardes alone if the Grey Wardens sit out since the Qunari clearly regard the Grey Wardens as basalit-an.

-Polaris

I would welcome this.  It would give the opportunity to slaughter many more communist oxbeasts.

But I doubt they'd do it really.  The templars and mages are the only ones entangled in this mess, the bulk of the Thedas military forces is neutral (or at least hasn't been mentioned taking sides in the game).  They'd still have to deal with the crown's military in all countries.  Doing so would also leave their own territory open for Tevinter invasion.  Not to mention, there's a very real possibility that qunari invasion would only serve to reunite Thedas, causing mage and templar to charge into battle side by side.  It has happened before.  Even with psychotic Meredith, she was willing to fight by Orsino's side against the Qunari in Kirkwall.  There's just too many "but's" and "if's" for their invasion to be a good idea.  Then again... they're deformed pinko's who think their swords have souls.  Good judgment isn't really their strong suite.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

"Hiearchy" means chain of command. If the local Arch-bishop dies, then this spiriual duties fall on to the most senior bishop under him until the Pope can nominate a replacement. That's how heirarchies work. Until 36 hours ago anyway....

-Polaris

Uhm. If an Archbishop dies, none of the bishops become "acting archbishops". They wait for the pope to promote one. It works that way because there is no immediate need for an Archbishop to always be present.

In the military, if the commanding officer dies, the next officer in the chain of command (heirarchy) takes over, becuase there is always an immediate need for a commanding officer to be present. But even then, it depends on which officer died. The LT may replace the Captain, but the Colonel rarely ever take the General's place (granted the cases of battlefield deaths amongst Generals are rather low).

Similarly when a Mother dies in the Chantry a sister may take over the sermons for a few days, but when a Grand Cleric dies, the Revered Mother does not just take over as there is (normally) no immediate need for a Grand Cleric to be present.

Long story short: Just because it is a heirarchy, does not mean that when the top of the chain dies, you just crank it up a notch. It doesn't work like that, especially not in the case of the Chantry where there are multiple subordinates of the same rank under one "unique" rank.

[EV 777777777]

this is an rpg. you decide if he was justified not other people
these threads are only for social perposes
but in my opnion he was justified

Modifié par EV 777777777, 04 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[IanPolaris]

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

You laugh, but I fully expect a full fledged Qunari invasion within a month....two on the outside...of the outset of the magical civil war.  I don' think that the Qun will make any slack for Tevinter, though (why should they?).  I do think the Qun will leave the Anderfells/Grey Wardes alone if the Grey Wardens sit out since the Qunari clearly regard the Grey Wardens as basalit-an.

-Polaris

I would welcome this.  It would give the opportunity to slaughter many more communist oxbeasts.

But I doubt they'd do it really.  The templars and mages are the only ones entangled in this mess, the bulk of the Thedas military forces is neutral (or at least hasn't been mentioned taking sides in the game).  They'd still have to deal with the crown's military in all countries.  Doing so would also leave their own territory open for Tevinter invasion.  Not to mention, there's a very real possibility that qunari invasion would only serve to reunite Thedas, causing mage and templar to charge into battle side by side.  It has happened before.  Even with psychotic Meredith, she was willing to fight by Orsino's side against the Qunari in Kirkwall.  There's just too many "but's" and "if's" for their invasion to be a good idea.  Then again... they're deformed pinko's who think their swords have souls.  Good judgment isn't really their strong suite.

I don't doubt it.  First of all when you kill the Arishock in the duel, he as much as promises you (and he considers you Basalit'an) that they will return.  Also Fenris (who I strongly suspect follows the Qun himself) suggests that the Qunari are waiting for an opportunity and are stronger than ever....and they could take over the Imperium at the very least, right now with little trouble.

Finally, if you read the accounts of the Exalted Marces against the Qunari, the only reason the Andrastians were able to even form a stalemate with the technologically superior Qunari who are also man for man far better soldiers is because by comparison, Qunari magic sucks.  If the Qunari see that magic is out of the fight, they have no reason to hold back.

I fully expect as I said before that one..two on the outside...months after the mage-templar civil war starts, the Qunari will invade.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

"Hiearchy" means chain of command. If the local Arch-bishop dies, then this spiriual duties fall on to the most senior bishop under him until the Pope can nominate a replacement. That's how heirarchies work. Until 36 hours ago anyway....

-Polaris

Uhm. If an Archbishop dies, none of the bishops become "acting archbishops". They wait for the pope to promote one. It works that way because there is no immediate need for an Archbishop to always be present.

In the military, if the commanding officer dies, the next officer in the chain of command (heirarchy) takes over, becuase there is always an immediate need for a commanding officer to be present. But even then, it depends on which officer died. The LT may replace the Captain, but the Colonel rarely ever take the General's place (granted the cases of battlefield deaths amongst Generals are rather low).

Similarly when a Mother dies in the Chantry a sister may take over the sermons for a few days, but when a Grand Cleric dies, the Revered Mother does not just take over as there is (normally) no immediate need for a Grand Cleric to be present.

Long story short: Just because it is a heirarchy, does not mean that when the top of the chain dies, you just crank it up a notch. It doesn't work like that, especially not in the case of the Chantry where there are multiple subordinates of the same rank under one "unique" rank.

That's not true.  Archbishop's chanceller will take over his immediate flock but the senior Bishop does subsume the authority (not the title but the authority) until the pope makes a replacement.  That's because (more historically than now), there often was immedate need to replace church officials.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Camenae wrote...

Tevinter and the Qunari leaders will get together: "Hai guise there's a civil war going on in Thedas lulz, let's work together for a minute, we take that sh*t over and split it? Dealz?"

"Deal!"

You laugh, but I fully expect a full fledged Qunari invasion within a month....two on the outside...of the outset of the magical civil war.  I don' think that the Qun will make any slack for Tevinter, though (why should they?).  I do think the Qun will leave the Anderfells/Grey Wardes alone if the Grey Wardens sit out since the Qunari clearly regard the Grey Wardens as basalit-an.

-Polaris

I would welcome this.  It would give the opportunity to slaughter many more communist oxbeasts.

But I doubt they'd do it really.  The templars and mages are the only ones entangled in this mess, the bulk of the Thedas military forces is neutral (or at least hasn't been mentioned taking sides in the game).  They'd still have to deal with the crown's military in all countries.  Doing so would also leave their own territory open for Tevinter invasion.  Not to mention, there's a very real possibility that qunari invasion would only serve to reunite Thedas, causing mage and templar to charge into battle side by side.  It has happened before.  Even with psychotic Meredith, she was willing to fight by Orsino's side against the Qunari in Kirkwall.  There's just too many "but's" and "if's" for their invasion to be a good idea.  Then again... they're deformed pinko's who think their swords have souls.  Good judgment isn't really their strong suite.

I don't doubt it.  First of all when you kill the Arishock in the duel, he as much as promises you (and he considers you Basalit'an) that they will return.  Also Fenris (who I strongly suspect follows the Qun himself) suggests that the Qunari are waiting for an opportunity and are stronger than ever....and they could take over the Imperium at the very least, right now with little trouble.

Finally, if you read the accounts of the Exalted Marces against the Qunari, the only reason the Andrastians were able to even form a stalemate with the technologically superior Qunari who are also man for man far better soldiers is because by comparison, Qunari magic sucks.  If the Qunari see that magic is out of the fight, they have no reason to hold back.

I fully expect as I said before that one..two on the outside...months after the mage-templar civil war starts, the Qunari will invade.

-Polaris

The reason the Andrastians could form a stalemate was not because their magic was superior to the Qunaris'. The Qunari army was barely chipped by the Andrastians, the codex say, the Qunari retreated because of the enormous losses amongst the civillian populace of Rivain.
The codex even clarifies that the Qunari was "quick" (a few decades) to adapt more powerful magic. When the Qunari took Kirkwall during the New Exalted Marches, the Qunari stormed the city in a display of unprecedented magical power (from the Qunari). That was many years ago. Saarebas now, is probably as powerful as the mages in rest of Thedas.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The reason the Andrastians could form a stalemate was not because their magic was superior to the Qunaris'. The Qunari army was barely chipped by the Andrastians, the codex say, the Qunari retreated because of the enormous losses amongst the civillian populace of Rivain.
The codex even clarifies that the Qunari was "quick" (a few decades) to adapt more powerful magic. When the Qunari took Kirkwall during the New Exalted Marches, the Qunari stormed the city in a display of unprecedented magical power (from the Qunari). That was many years ago. Saarebas now, is probably as powerful as the mages in rest of Thedas.

That may have what prompted that actual Lloymellon Accords (sp), but if you read the other entries on Exalted Marches, it's very clear that the only reason the Andrastian Forces were able to meet the Qunari with any sort of Military euquivalance was because of magic.  The Codex entries make that very clear.  Until the mage really got involved, the Qunari were unstoppable.

-Polaris

[ddv.rsa]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't doubt it.  First of all when you kill the Arishock in the duel, he as much as promises you (and he considers you Basalit'an) that they will return.  Also Fenris (who I strongly suspect follows the Qun himself) suggests that the Qunari are waiting for an opportunity and are stronger than ever....and they could take over the Imperium at the very least, right now with little trouble.

Finally, if you read the accounts of the Exalted Marces against the Qunari, the only reason the Andrastians were able to even form a stalemate with the technologically superior Qunari who are also man for man far better soldiers is because by comparison, Qunari magic sucks.  If the Qunari see that magic is out of the fight, they have no reason to hold back.

I fully expect as I said before that one..two on the outside...months after the mage-templar civil war starts, the Qunari will invade.
-Polaris

I imagine that would end the civil war rather quickly. Whatever ideological issues may divide them, the qunari threaten mages, templars, and every nation state in Thedas. I don't think even you would argue when I say that in the face of a qunari victory, even the most radical resolutionist would be wishing for a returing of the templars. They would be compelled to unite, just like during Ferelden's blight. Perhaps it wouldn't happen easily, and perhaps a player character would have to nudge them along, but unite they most certainly would.

And how do you figure Fenris for a qunari? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The reason the Andrastians could form a stalemate was not because their magic was superior to the Qunaris'. The Qunari army was barely chipped by the Andrastians, the codex say, the Qunari retreated because of the enormous losses amongst the civillian populace of Rivain.
The codex even clarifies that the Qunari was "quick" (a few decades) to adapt more powerful magic. When the Qunari took Kirkwall during the New Exalted Marches, the Qunari stormed the city in a display of unprecedented magical power (from the Qunari). That was many years ago. Saarebas now, is probably as powerful as the mages in rest of Thedas.

That may have what prompted that actual Lloymellon Accords (sp), but if you read the other entries on Exalted Marches, it's very clear that the only reason the Andrastian Forces were able to meet the Qunari with any sort of Military euquivalance was because of magic.  The Codex entries make that very clear.  Until the mage really got involved, the Qunari were unstoppable.

-Polaris

True that. I just thought you meant that the mages were what forced the Qunari back.

[Deified Data]

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well.

Under no circumstances was Anders justified. I've mulled this over to myself repeatedly, and cannot think of a single, logical justification for his actions.

Terrorism on the scale that he committed can be justified (albeit selfishly) when it serves the ends of the terrorist, regardless of how the victims feel. That being said, Anders failed in this particular act. Let's brainstorm Anders's myriad motivations for this action:

• To remove any room for compromise between mage and templar in Kirkwall by killing Elthina, the only entity capable of mediating a peace between the two parties.
• To call attention to the plight of mages in Kirkwall and elsewhere.
• As a clarion call to mages everywhere to abandon the Circle, and a display of mage strength.
• As a purely vicious act of revenge on the part of Vengeance, who at this point dominates Anders's psyche.

...that's how I deciphered it, anyway. The first bullet is the only one that Anders elaborates on. Now, let's look at what he actually succeeded at doing:

• Anders succeeded in removing any form of compromise in the conflict.
• Anders failed to draw attention to the plight of mages. Instead, he legitimized and reinforced centuries of state-sponsored bigotry by proving what mages really do with their freedom. Indeed, the entire climax of the game is a gauntlet of mages giving in to demonic influence, truly challenging the player's sympathies. Whether or not all mages resort to violence and blood magic is immaterial - all the public sees is a blown-up Chantry and a First Enchanter-turned-abomination. Fear of mages will rise to an all-time high in Thedas.
• Anders's vicious attack on the Chantry will turn away many would-be supporters in the Circle who still support the Chantry and its doctrine. While many want freedom, few believe that freedom can be attained through violent means (it can't). Among the Circle fraternities, only the Libertarians are sure to support a complete break from the Chantry, and even that's in doubt. The most powerful fraternity, the Aequtarians, will likely be left reeling in the wake of the attack. The Apologists will likely be inconsolable. So, as a rallying cry to mages, the attack on the Chantry is likely to only attract dangerous elements (i.e. blood mages, mage supremacists, Tevinter-sympathists...all of whom are likely one in the same).
• Obviously, the attack succeeded in sating Vengeance's thirst for, well, vengeance.

...so, I largely believe that Anders's attack on the Chantry was largely futile. It may have inspired a rebellion, but there's no way it can end with mages living peacefully alongside normal people. One side must subdue the other. If Anders's goal was freedom and peace, he failed magnificently. If his goal was to create a new Tevinter Imperium, where mages rule normal people, he may succeed...it remains to be seen in DA3.

[IanPolaris]

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't doubt it.  First of all when you kill the Arishock in the duel, he as much as promises you (and he considers you Basalit'an) that they will return.  Also Fenris (who I strongly suspect follows the Qun himself) suggests that the Qunari are waiting for an opportunity and are stronger than ever....and they could take over the Imperium at the very least, right now with little trouble.

Finally, if you read the accounts of the Exalted Marces against the Qunari, the only reason the Andrastians were able to even form a stalemate with the technologically superior Qunari who are also man for man far better soldiers is because by comparison, Qunari magic sucks.  If the Qunari see that magic is out of the fight, they have no reason to hold back.

I fully expect as I said before that one..two on the outside...months after the mage-templar civil war starts, the Qunari will invade.
-Polaris

I imagine that would end the civil war rather quickly. Whatever ideological issues may divide them, the qunari threaten mages, templars, and every nation state in Thedas. I don't think even you would argue when I say that in the face of a qunari victory, even the most radical resolutionist would be wishing for a returing of the templars. They would be compelled to unite, just like during Ferelden's blight. Perhaps it wouldn't happen easily, and perhaps a player character would have to nudge them along, but unite they most certainly would.

And how do you figure Fenris for a qunari? 

I will answer the last question first if you don't mind:  I don't know if Fenris is Qunari or not, but he clearly understand the Qun very well, and seems to be more than a little sympathetic to it.  Given that he has a NEED to have a defined role and a place (which is one of the centerpieces of his Rivalmance with Hawke who gives him such definition even if they agree on nothing) makes him seem very Qunari in philosphy.  I could easily be wrong about that, however.  Just a passing thought.

As for the rest, given that the mages feel (with good justification I might add), that they are free or they are dead, I don't see the mages making a truce with the Chantry or Templars even if the Qunari invade.  At best, they will come to terms IMHO with the various secular heads of state (first with Fereldan who seems to be on very good terms with them) and essentially say this:

We will help you, but only on our terms.  Otherwise, we might die but we'll enjoy seeing the Qunari take you down too.

Those terms would almost certainly at a minimum include an end of all chantry oversight of mages and a full "bill of human rights" for mages.

-Polaris

[Deztyn]

Dragging something up from about ten pages back:

The Angry One wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
It is implicit in this case. There have been I think two Rights of Annulment performed before.

Afaik the right has been invoked 17 times, including ferelden and kirkwall.

That many? I guess I should read the codex again..

I think you were getting tripped up on the average. Before DA2 came out we used to say every known circle had been annulled about twice in seven hundred years. It helped put it in perspective when people cried about how many poor mages died in the seventeen annulments. Now we know there are fourteen Circles.

The Circle's success rate looks even better from where I'm standing.

*Goes back to page 40*

Modifié par Deztyn, 04 avril 2011 - 10:46 .

[Oneiropolos]

IanPolaris wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't doubt it.  First of all when you kill the Arishock in the duel, he as much as promises you (and he considers you Basalit'an) that they will return.  Also Fenris (who I strongly suspect follows the Qun himself) suggests that the Qunari are waiting for an opportunity and are stronger than ever....and they could take over the Imperium at the very least, right now with little trouble.

Finally, if you read the accounts of the Exalted Marces against the Qunari, the only reason the Andrastians were able to even form a stalemate with the technologically superior Qunari who are also man for man far better soldiers is because by comparison, Qunari magic sucks.  If the Qunari see that magic is out of the fight, they have no reason to hold back.

I fully expect as I said before that one..two on the outside...months after the mage-templar civil war starts, the Qunari will invade.
-Polaris

I imagine that would end the civil war rather quickly. Whatever ideological issues may divide them, the qunari threaten mages, templars, and every nation state in Thedas. I don't think even you would argue when I say that in the face of a qunari victory, even the most radical resolutionist would be wishing for a returing of the templars. They would be compelled to unite, just like during Ferelden's blight. Perhaps it wouldn't happen easily, and perhaps a player character would have to nudge them along, but unite they most certainly would.

And how do you figure Fenris for a qunari? 

I will answer the last question first if you don't mind:  I don't know if Fenris is Qunari or not, but he clearly understand the Qun very well, and seems to be more than a little sympathetic to it.  Given that he has a NEED to have a defined role and a place (which is one of the centerpieces of his Rivalmance with Hawke who gives him such definition even if they agree on nothing) makes him seem very Qunari in philosphy.  I could easily be wrong about that, however.  Just a passing thought.

As for the rest, given that the mages feel (with good justification I might add), that they are free or they are dead, I don't see the mages making a truce with the Chantry or Templars even if the Qunari invade.  At best, they will come to terms IMHO with the various secular heads of state (first with Fereldan who seems to be on very good terms with them) and essentially say this:

We will help you, but only on our terms.  Otherwise, we might die but we'll enjoy seeing the Qunari take you down too.

Those terms would almost certainly at a minimum include an end of all chantry oversight of mages and a full "bill of human rights" for mages.

-Polaris

I got the -very- strong impression that the "Fog Warriors" where Fenris was stranded originally were Qunari... well, probably the outcasts as they were fighting for their freedom. But I think outcasts that still, in their mind, followed their interpretation of the Qun. We often hear the diferrences between extremists in a religion, dogmatists, and more liberal intrepretations. It makes the Qunari race to two-dimensional to only see them as those who follow the Qun in the way the Arishok interprets it and those who rebel entirely, like the Talvishoth. There are likely some who do not agree with treatment of mages in their own society, and do not likely accept the perceived gender roles. They are probably outcasts, fighting for freedom as opposed to just 'accepting death' like the Arishok says is the other option. Fenris is seeking a purpose throughout the game, even though he is able to speak the Qun and understand their society. He is not a follower of the Qun. 

However, if you DO have Exiled Prince, by the third act, there are very strong indications that Fenris has become Andrastian. Sebastian catches him praying in the Chantry. Hardly something a follower of the Qun would do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The fog warriors are human Seheron natives who fight against both the Qunari and Tevinter.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The fog warriors are human Seheron natives who fight against both the Qunari and Tevinter.

Probably elves too.

[Oneiropolos]

Good to know about the Fog Warriors. I stand entirely corrected. (Look, someone on this thread can say that! Joking. ) I know they were on Seheron... and yes, they were probably elves too, since Fenris says he was told he was from there. I was just trying to think if it's ever explained where Fenris picked up his Qun knowledge and that era of time made the most 'sense' to me. But maybe someone else has the answer?

[Conduit0]

Deified Data wrote...

Foryou wrote...

Okay say what you will about Anders blowing up the Chantery, but was Anders Justified for what he did even if it was wrong. I mean is he justified for blowing up the chantery. Due to him thinking that it was the only way to solve the Mage Templar Problem.
To be honest I think he is justified I mean he thought that the end would justify the means. To add on he took complete responsiblity for his action and didn't put up a fight when he confessed to what he did. He was fine with being killed as well.

Under no circumstances was Anders justified. I've mulled this over to myself repeatedly, and cannot think of a single, logical justification for his actions.

Terrorism on the scale that he committed can be justified (albeit selfishly) when it serves the ends of the terrorist, regardless of how the victims feel. That being said, Anders failed in this particular act. Let's brainstorm Anders's myriad motivations for this action:

• To remove any room for compromise between mage and templar in Kirkwall by killing Elthina, the only entity capable of mediating a peace between the two parties.
  
• To call attention to the plight of mages in Kirkwall and elsewhere.
  
• As a clarion call to mages everywhere to abandon the Circle, and a display of mage strength.
  
• As a purely vicious act of revenge on the part of Vengeance, who at this point dominates Anders's psyche.

...that's how I deciphered it, anyway. The first bullet is the only one that Anders elaborates on. Now, let's look at what he actually succeeded at doing:

• Anders succeeded in removing any form of compromise in the conflict.
  
• Anders failed to draw attention to the plight of mages. Instead, he legitimized and reinforced centuries of state-sponsored bigotry by proving what mages really do with their freedom. Indeed, the entire climax of the game is a gauntlet of mages giving in to demonic influence, truly challenging the player's sympathies. Whether or not all mages resort to violence and blood magic is immaterial - all the public sees is a blown-up Chantry and a First Enchanter-turned-abomination. Fear of mages will rise to an all-time high in Thedas.
  
• Anders's vicious attack on the Chantry will turn away many would-be supporters in the Circle who still support the Chantry and its doctrine. While many want freedom, few believe that freedom can be attained through violent means (it can't). Among the Circle fraternities, only the Libertarians are sure to support a complete break from the Chantry, and even that's in doubt. The most powerful fraternity, the Aequtarians, will likely be left reeling in the wake of the attack. The Apologists will likely be inconsolable. So, as a rallying cry to mages, the attack on the Chantry is likely to only attract dangerous elements (i.e. blood mages, mage supremacists, Tevinter-sympathists...all of whom are likely one in the same).
  
• Obviously, the attack succeeded in sating Vengeance's thirst for, well, vengeance.

...so, I largely believe that Anders's attack on the Chantry was largely futile. It may have inspired a rebellion, but there's no way it can end with mages living peacefully alongside normal people. One side must subdue the other. If Anders's goal was freedom and peace, he failed magnificently. If his goal was to create a new Tevinter Imperium, where mages rule normal people, he may succeed...it remains to be seen in DA3.

I would largely disagree with a lot of this, you seem to be ignoring the actual end of the game where Varric states that all of the Circles have been lost, if only the redical factions rose up, most of the Circles would still be largely intact. Second, and I'm surprised so many people seem to be forgetting this, Varric states that even the Templars have rebelled against the Chantry, which suggest that even Templars them selves have "woken up" as it were to the hypocracy of the Chantry. When even the watch dogs decide to turn on their masters, favorable public opinion will be all but impossible to maintain.

[Conduit0]

double post.

Modifié par Conduit0, 05 avril 2011 - 12:21 .

[Herr Uhl]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Good to know about the Fog Warriors. I stand entirely corrected. (Look, someone on this thread can say that! Joking. ) I know they were on Seheron... and yes, they were probably elves too, since Fenris says he was told he was from there. I was just trying to think if it's ever explained where Fenris picked up his Qun knowledge and that era of time made the most 'sense' to me. But maybe someone else has the answer?

Seheron is under occupation by the Qunari. How would he miss it?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Conduit0 wrote...

[*]I would largely disagree with a lot of this, you seem to be ignoring the actual end of the game where Varric states that all of the Circles have been lost, if only the redical factions rose up, most of the Circles would still be largely intact. Second, and I'm surprised so many people seem to be forgetting this, Varric states that even the Templars have rebelled against the Chantry, which suggest that even Templars them selves have "woken up" as it were to the hypocracy of the Chantry. When even the watch dogs decide to turn on their masters, favorable public opinion will be all but impossible to maintain.

Except that neither mages nor Templars are looked favorably upon by the general populace anymore. That these two factions rise up against the Chantry, which are looked favorably upon, may help the Chantry garner support from the medium man.

[ddv.rsa]

@Conduit0: You have no information on why the templars rebelled. No one does. So what is your basis for saying it is due to the "hypocracy" of the chantry? For all we know they refused orders to stand down, and left to prosecute a war against the mages. But like your proposal that is pure conjecture.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 05 avril 2011 - 12:23 .

[Oneiropolos]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Oneiropolos wrote...

Good to know about the Fog Warriors. I stand entirely corrected. (Look, someone on this thread can say that! Joking. ) I know they were on Seheron... and yes, they were probably elves too, since Fenris says he was told he was from there. I was just trying to think if it's ever explained where Fenris picked up his Qun knowledge and that era of time made the most 'sense' to me. But maybe someone else has the answer?

Seheron is under occupation by the Qunari. How would he miss it?

Well, in fairness, just because it was occupied, doesn't mean you can suddenly quote something in a foreign language of a foreign religion. And if the Arishok doesn't regard you highly enough to falt out offer you a 1 on 1 duel, Fenris can point out that the terminology he calls Hawke by means Hawke (regardless of gender, whic his something the Arishok points out and Fenris counters) is worthy of a duel. But we can mark it up to Fenris having studied the Qunari and their customs visually and just been a very quick learner. We do know he CAN'T read prior to Hawke giving him the book about Shartan. So he had to have been close enough at one point to learn entirely by sight and sound and retain it. Perhaps the -simplest- explanation may be there were renegade Qunari amongst the fog warriors as well, like we see with the Talvishoth, and Seamus (The Viscount's son) and Fenris could ask questions about customs directly. Just speculating. 

[Conduit0]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...


[*]I would largely disagree with a lot of this, you seem to be ignoring the actual end of the game where Varric states that all of the Circles have been lost, if only the redical factions rose up, most of the Circles would still be largely intact. Second, and I'm surprised so many people seem to be forgetting this, Varric states that even the Templars have rebelled against the Chantry, which suggest that even Templars them selves have "woken up" as it were to the hypocracy of the Chantry. When even the watch dogs decide to turn on their masters, favorable public opinion will be all but impossible to maintain.

Except that neither mages nor Templars are looked favorably upon by the general populace anymore. That these two factions rise up against the Chantry, which are looked favorably upon, may help the Chantry garner support from the medium man.

I find that hard to buy, when two diametrically opposed factions both end up agreeing on something, such a dislike of a third faction, it usually puts said third faction in a pretty bad light. Regardless of whether people like the Templars or not, people are going to ask questions as to why they would rebel. Also without the Templars the military power of the Chantry is greatly deminished, so countries that may not have liked how the Chantry did things, but were afraid of standing up to them, such as Feralden, may very well throw their lot in, as an attempt to knock the Chantry down a peg. Not to mention that Orzzamar has a lot to gain if the Chantry loses and the lyrium trade is deregulated. Thedas isn't so easily black and white as one might think.