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Was Anders Justified (No Pun intended)


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#1351
Muddle

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AshenEndemion wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

nomadicmouse wrote...

Yes, "In my opinion", in Kirkwall she was the root of the problem. Better? :)


Out of curiosity, a thought experiment. Let's say that there's a criminal who is holding a child hostage with a knife. There's a police officer with a gun on the criminal. The criminal says "Put the gun down, or I will stab this child." The police officer refuses to put the gun down. The criminal stabs the child.

Who is the root of the problem?

The police officer.

Because she didn't shoot the criminal, because she was afraid of shooting the child, but also didn't back down in favor of the criminal, the child died.


Incorrect.  The police officer caused the child's death by not shooting the criminal...  but the criminal created the problem (and is thus the root) by taking  the child hostage.


Oh, I wish I could answer this question.  But, unlike DA2, there isn't enough information for me to form an  opinion.   What was the criminal doing at the time it took the child hostage?

#1352
TEWR

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nomadicmouse wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

nomadicmouse wrote...

Yes, "In my opinion", in Kirkwall she was the root of the problem. Better? :)


Out of curiosity, a thought experiment. Let's say that there's a criminal who is holding a child hostage with a knife. There's a police officer with a gun on the criminal. The criminal says "Put the gun down, or I will stab this child." The police officer refuses to put the gun down. The criminal stabs the child.

Who is the root of the problem?

The police officer.

Because she didn't shoot the criminal, because she was afraid of shooting the child, but also didn't back down in favor of the criminal, the child died.


Incorrect.  The police officer caused the child's death by not shooting the criminal...  but the criminal created the problem (and is thus the root) by taking  the child hostage.


Oh, I wish I could answer this question.  But, unlike DA2, there isn't enough information for me to form an  opinion.   What was the criminal doing at the time it took the child hostage?


jumping around in a monkey suit (underneath the suit he's naked) screaming about how cake is evil and a lie, while saying that the evil unicorns are making him do what he's doing. They say the child is an evil crackfiend from hell that runs a series of meth labs exploiting the labors of midgets from Asia.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 06:51 .


#1353
Dean_the_Young

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[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]
We can't prove what she is. Our best guess, and the one we were largely told by Morrigan, is that Flemeth is an abomination.[/quote]Did she? Then I sinceresly concede the point about Flemeth, though I seem to recall such during DA:O.


[quote]
Blood magic isn't used because it's Tevinter.

Those were your words, which implies that it's solely a Tevinter art.
[/quote]Not necessarily, and in this case not what I meant to imply.

As I was not clear, however, I will apologize and rephrase. Blood magic isn't used in Tevinter simply because Tevinter is an awful place of evil people.
[quote]
Ok now you're forgetting some lore it seems. Blood magic, while not requiring you to kill people, enables blood magic spells to be stronger. Hence why in Tevinter there is still slavery. That's why they would start killing people left and right. If they kill random civilians for blood magic, word would eventually leak to the Templars and then the Blood Mage would get a sword of mercy shoved through their heart at some point. Thus a free mage would have no reason to bring that kind of unwarranted attention to themselves, because Blood Magic doesn't work on a Templar who is in the know. Take him by surprise and of course it will work.
[/quote]Blood Mages staying hidden because they are perfectly capable of discretion and hiding their art: that's just as much lore. You're insisting on a reducto ad absurdem as proof that no one will do abuses of illegal magics.

[quote]
There is no illegal magic, aside from Blood Magic, that can bend the minds of people. Where that came from I don't know.[/quote]Controlling minds isn't the only abuses magic is capable of, which is what I meant to refer to.

[quote]
And a Blood Mage cannot control the minds of the masses to put him/her in power. It's a very exhausting effort, having to keep a leash on so many minds. Eventually exhaustion would cause one mind to break free, and then a ripple effect might occur.[/quote]The blood mage doesn't have to do it on everyone at the same time.

[quote]

Tevinter Magisters are only in power because the Imperial chantry deemed that Magisters could rule.[/quote]And why did the Imperial Chantry deem that Magisters could rule?

Work it backwards from there.
[quote]

I never said Blood Magic turns you into an abomination. Look at my comment to another poster where I said Demons use Blood Magic as a way to breach the very person of a mage. [/quote]You made an argument that blood magic makes people especially prone, a leading reason, to becoming an abomination.

People who use blood magic without demonic infection are no more at risk than regular mages.


[quote]
When was the last time locking up people prevented crime? [/quote]Would you like a comparison between societies with working justice (and jail systems) versus those without chronologically, or alphabetically.

[quote]
A Circle (or in Kirkwall's case, a Prison) doesn't stop mages from misbehaving either.
[/quote]It does, however, diminish the costs of those who do fall to the general public compared to when instances when mages who are living 'normal' lives go nuts, in large part by limiting the fallout.

A tower of abominations was barely noticed, One abomination of an untrained, unoppressed boy nearly wiped out a major settlement.

[quote]
I refer you to my previous statement. People can trust a mage.
[/quote]People can trust mages in general to not abuse great power as much as they can trust anyone to not abuse great power. Simply because not all people abuse power does not mean that you should blindly trust all people to use power responsibly.

#1354
Mnemnosyne

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

40-45% is a huge number however. And a majority (simple majority as opposed to absolute majority).
I doubt mages make up more than 5% of the population and even that sounds too high. 1% or so sounds reasonable.

Within
that 1%, only the Resolutionists call for armed revolt against the
Chantry and are deemed as too extremist by the Libertarians themselves.
Let's assume that all fraternities have the same number of adherents
(not true, but lets for the sake of argument). That means only 1/6 are
resolutionists. I doub they represent a higher percentage or even that
percentage, as the Chantry would have probably called in the Seekers a
long time ago. 

At worse, Anders is representing himself only, as
he is not part of any organization or fraternity. At best, he is
representing the Resolutionists who are deemed extremists by even
Libertarians. At best, 1/6 of all mages, who themselves probably make up
about 1% of the total population. Him representing the Resolutionists
however is  highly debatable as we have no indication that he is part of
the group and if he coordinated anything with them. They might like his
act, but that does not mean he planned anything with them and that he
wasn't acting on his own.

I think he is just representing
himself. This goes far from a substantial minority (or a simple
majority) deciding the fate of everyone else. This is more like one man
thinking he is qualified to make a choice bigger than himself on behalf
of all mages.

I did not mean that 40-45% actually
participated in the revolution nor that they actively encouraged it
before the fact, only that that's the approximate percentage that is
believed to have been in favor of it and supported it after it began.  I
don't know of any figures on how many supported it before it actually
began, but I'm pretty sure it was much, much less - I'm not sure it
would be possible to even obtain such figures in any way that would be
objectively meaningful.

You're right about Anders, though, since
as far as we're aware he wasn't even representing a small organization,
but only himself.  I think the story would
have been more interesting and made more sense if we'd gotten even a
small indication that he was in contact with other Circles across
Thedas, since his actions would have made a lot more sense then, but
alas.  I was more referring to people claiming
that most of the mages were being forced into this, which is true, but
no more true than most any revolution.

Most revolutions that I have studied (although I'm not an expert on them by any means) are sparked by a tiny percentage of the population doing some very visible things, which then explodes into popular support.  So, once the ball gets rolling is when people start to support the movement, in general.  The Resolutionists are the only large organization actively wanting to get that ball rolling at the moment, but once it begins, it seems reasonable to presume that many of the other mages joined in, since we are told that all the Circles have revolted.  There are, after all, many attempted revolutions which used similar events to try to incite revolution, but were not picked up on by enough people to actually do anything.

sphinxess wrote...

The trouble with using Anders as an example is he has plot immunity - it's like holding up Merrill as proof that Blood Mages can easily and safely control their magic...

How about using Jowan as an example that blood mages can easily and safely control their magic?  There is never once an incident in which Jowan's magic gets out of control, and even when he's escaping the tower he apparently doesn't kill or cause permanent injury to anyone - he just disables them enough so he can escape.  He certainly never seems to be in any danger of becoming an abomination, and even though he's a screwup and an idiot, he never once does anything bad that is related to his magic.  Poisoning the arl is the only bad thing he ever did that we know of, and any servant could do that just as easily.

#1355
hoorayforicecream

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nomadicmouse wrote...

Oh, I wish I could answer this question.  But, unlike DA2, there isn't enough information for me to form an  opinion.   What was the criminal doing at the time it took the child hostage?


The criminal entered a convenience store to hold it up that coincidentally both the cop and the child happened to be buying snacks at.

#1356
Dean_the_Young

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Darth Krytie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

He wants mages to rise up and fight with him. Presumably, not as Arcane Horrors. You can't force war between Templars and Mages (both who live in the Gallows) if they're both dead.

Anders' actions weren't based around helping the mages win a war: indeed, he disclaims all responsiblity for being the one to help them, and says he'll await the arrival of whoever would. Anders was fixated on starting, not winning, a war, and whether the mages won freedom or were massacred wasn't important because both were preferable to continuing with the status quo. That's his own admission.


And where in my statement did I use the word "win"?

Where did I say you used the word "win"?


When you started arguing about a point I never made. 

I never claimed you made it. I was making a point about Anders, not you.

You made a point about that Anders wouldn't kill mages because they wouldn't be able to wage a war. Waging a war isn't Anders' point, however: escaping Templar control in life or death is.

#1357
Muddle

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

nomadicmouse wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

nomadicmouse wrote...

Yes, "In my opinion", in Kirkwall she was the root of the problem. Better? :)


Out of curiosity, a thought experiment. Let's say that there's a criminal who is holding a child hostage with a knife. There's a police officer with a gun on the criminal. The criminal says "Put the gun down, or I will stab this child." The police officer refuses to put the gun down. The criminal stabs the child.

Who is the root of the problem?

The police officer.

Because she didn't shoot the criminal, because she was afraid of shooting the child, but also didn't back down in favor of the criminal, the child died.


Incorrect.  The police officer caused the child's death by not shooting the criminal...  but the criminal created the problem (and is thus the root) by taking  the child hostage.


Oh, I wish I could answer this question.  But, unlike DA2, there isn't enough information for me to form an  opinion.   What was the criminal doing at the time it took the child hostage?


jumping around in a monkey suit (underneath the suit he's naked) screaming about how cake is evil and a lie, while saying that the evil unicorns are making him do what he's doing. They say the child is an evil crackfiend from hell that runs a series of meth labs exploiting the labors of midgets from Asia.



(giggle) The police officer should have shot the criminal. Because the criminal probably would have stabbed the child anyway. This of course assumes the child is small in size and the office can get a decent shot. 
 
As always, this is my opinion, not to be confused with anyone else’s.

#1358
AshenEndymion

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Koyasha wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

The trouble with using Anders as an example is he has plot immunity - it's like holding up Merrill as proof that Blood Mages can easily and safely control their magic...

How about using Jowan as an example that blood mages can easily and safely control their magic?  There is never once an incident in which Jowan's magic gets out of control, and even when he's escaping the tower he apparently doesn't kill or cause permanent injury to anyone - he just disables them enough so he can escape.  He certainly never seems to be in any danger of becoming an abomination, and even though he's a screwup and an idiot, he never once does anything bad that is related to his magic.  Poisoning the arl is the only bad thing he ever did that we know of, and any servant could do that just as easily.


Jowan didn't kill the 6 who were immediately going to arrest him.  But that doesn't meant the guards at the tower gate didn't die.  Nor the Templars sent to kill him (the guy in Howe's dungeon doesn't say that Logain killed the other Templars....).

And Jowan does use blood magic to kill Eamon's wife, if you let him.  Whether that's "bad" really depends, doesn't it?  A better example would be Alain.  But only seeing a single act of "good" using blood magic doesn't mean he never used it for bad (although, I'd agree that Alain doesn't seem the type, Flemeth didn't seem all that good looking in DA:O either).

#1359
TEWR

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The blood mage doesn't have to do it on everyone at the same time.

Then what's the point of even trying? It is bound to fail at some point, either at the beginning or somewhere down the line.

Would you like a comparison between societies with working justice (and jail systems) versus those without chronologically, or alphabetically.

Both pleasePosted Image.

Seriously though, prisons have murder, rape, and gang wars too (I don't know how best to describe the latter, but hopefully you understand. Infighting among the fraternities I guess, though gang wars and infighting are two different things. Point is, prisons have crime too). Just because Mages are free does not mean there is no justice, nor a jail system. The Aeonar? You remember that from the Magi Origin?

You made an argument that blood magic makes people especially prone, a leading reason, to becoming an abomination.

People who use blood magic without demonic infection are no more at risk than regular mages.


Because it does weaken their defenses. That's why demons lead mages to use Blood Magic. Why do you think the Pride Demon led Merrill to Blood Magic (yes she's naive, but the fact remains that's why the demon led her to use it. Why do you think Uldred used Blood Magic? Same thing)

Where blood magic came from however is something else, so I really hope that doesn't come up in this thread anywhere. I already proved how it didn't originate from demons as far as we know in a Jowan thread I believe.

A tower of abominations was barely noticed, One abomination of an untrained, unoppressed boy nearly wiped out a major settlement.


A tower of abominations was only barely noticed because Wynne cast a barrier that kept all demons, abominations, and Undead Horrors from escaping the Tower. Had Wynne not done that, the whole countryside would've been knee-deep in Abominations. I don't see your point.

Connor only became an Abomination because Isolde, being the dumb **** she is, well.... did dumb ****y things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 07:15 .


#1360
Darth Krytie

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[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[/quote]I never claimed you made it. I was making a point about Anders, not you.

You made a point about that Anders wouldn't kill mages because they wouldn't be able to wage a war. Waging a war isn't Anders' point, however: escaping Templar control in life or death is.

[/quote]

Your own quote said: Anders was fixated on starting, not winning, a war, and whether the mages won
freedom or were massacred wasn't important because both were preferable to continuing with the status quo.


In response to my first statement which spoke only of waging war. To wage war means to carry it out. To engage in the act. You basically agreed with that when you said Anders wanted to start it. But, then, you argued that winning was not in his mind. I never actually discussed his end goal. Or what he hoped would be accomplished by the war. Ergo, instead of saying: Added to what you said, this comment of mine is also true. Your comment came off as disagreement and argumentative about something that simply didn't exist in the comment of mine to which you were responding.

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 06 avril 2011 - 07:13 .


#1361
hoorayforicecream

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nomadicmouse wrote...

(giggle) The police officer should have shot the criminal. Because the criminal probably would have stabbed the child anyway. This of course assumes the child is small in size and the office can get a decent shot. 
 
As always, this is my opinion, not to be confused with anyone else’s.


The question isn't about what should have been done. The question is about who is at fault.

#1362
TEWR

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

nomadicmouse wrote...

(giggle) The police officer should have shot the criminal. Because the criminal probably would have stabbed the child anyway. This of course assumes the child is small in size and the office can get a decent shot. 
 
As always, this is my opinion, not to be confused with anyone else’s.


The question isn't about what should have been done. The question is about who is at fault.


The police officer for not giving the man some damn cake to show the criminal that cake is in fact NOT a lie.

#1363
Deztyn

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Connor only became an Abomination because Isolde, being the dumb **** she is, well.... did dumb ****y things.


Right. Like keeping her child away from the Circle and thinking it would be good enough to have him trained at home. :whistle:

#1364
TEWR

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Deztyn wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Connor only became an Abomination because Isolde, being the dumb **** she is, well.... did dumb ****y things.


Right. Like keeping her child away from the Circle and thinking it would be good enough to have him trained at home. :whistle:


not so much that, but moreso about hiring an apostate who never passed his Harrowing and doesn't know how to teach new mages because he's a bumbling idiot, at best.

Malcolm Hawke kept Bethany (and potentially Hawke) out of the Circle and taught them, yet they didn't suffer the result of abomination-hood

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 07:20 .


#1365
Deztyn

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You're making an assumption. Jowan could have been an awful teacher. He could have been a fantastic teacher. Either way he only had a few months at most with Connor and Connor didn't have any other oversight. That would be a problem in any replacement for the current system.

Modifié par Deztyn, 06 avril 2011 - 07:27 .


#1366
Muddle

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

nomadicmouse wrote...

(giggle) The police officer should have shot the criminal. Because the criminal probably would have stabbed the child anyway. This of course assumes the child is small in size and the office can get a decent shot. 
 
As always, this is my opinion, not to be confused with anyone else’s.


The question isn't about what should have been done. The question is about who is at fault.



Yes, sorry.   The police officer was, in my opinion, because the police officer didn't shoot.  Of course in IRL this was would be a whole other basket of kittens, only because of the laws we have to follow.

Modifié par nomadicmouse, 06 avril 2011 - 07:28 .


#1367
AshenEndymion

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nomadicmouse wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

nomadicmouse wrote...

(giggle) The police officer should have shot the criminal. Because the criminal probably would have stabbed the child anyway. This of course assumes the child is small in size and the office can get a decent shot. 
 
As always, this is my opinion, not to be confused with anyone else’s.


The question isn't about what should have been done. The question is about who is at fault.



Yes, sorry.   The police officer was, in my opinion, because the police officer didn't shoot.  Of course in IRL this was would be a whole other basket of kittens, only because of the laws we have to follow.


.... The police officer was at fault for the entire situation?  I'm going to need to be explained that one.

#1368
TEWR

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Deztyn wrote...

You're making an assumption. Jowan could have been an awful teacher. He could have been a fantastic teacher. Either way he only had a few months at most with Connor and Connor didn't have any other oversight. That would be a problem in any replacement for the current system.


True enough, I am making an assumption. I just remembered some posts I made on a Jowan related thread a while back, where I said the exact same thing you said about Jowan maybe not being able to teach Connor what he needed to know, so I ****ed upPosted Image

He may have barely begun teaching Connor and not gotten to some of the basics. However, rule 1 should've been:

Connor, whatever you do, don't trust demons! No matter what they say or offer you, they are not to be trusted.


Arguably however, the demon was the only thing that kept Eamon alive from the poison. Isolde and Teagan say as much. Should Connor have not made the deal with the demon? Yea... but had he not the Warden and Alistair would've seriously been ****ed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 07:39 .


#1369
TEWR

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oops, I quoted instead of edited. I fail....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 avril 2011 - 07:39 .


#1370
Mnemnosyne

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AshenEndemion wrote...

Jowan didn't kill the 6 who were immediately going to arrest him.  But that doesn't meant the guards at the tower gate didn't die.  Nor the Templars sent to kill him (the guy in Howe's dungeon doesn't say that Logain killed the other Templars....).

And Jowan does use blood magic to kill Eamon's wife, if you let him.  Whether that's "bad" really depends, doesn't it?  A better example would be Alain.  But only seeing a single act of "good" using blood magic doesn't mean he never used it for bad (although, I'd agree that Alain doesn't seem the type, Flemeth didn't seem all that good looking in DA:O either).

Claiming that he killed people off-screen and with no accusations of it is making up completely unsupported suppositions.  The guy in Howe's dungeon doesn't say the other templars are even dead, if I remember right.  He says they were spread out looking for him, and that he came upon Jowan alone.  We never see Jowan killing anyone, and no one accuses him of killing anyone, ergo there's no evidence whatsoever to support he did.

Alain, frankly, is a lot more sketchy and questionable than Jowan, considering he participated in the kidnapping of Hawke's sibling or some other significant person and only backed off at the last moment, even if Hawke has been solidly in support of mages the entire time.  Alain was, at least initially, willing to participate in taking and threatening a completely uninvolved hostage (for example, Grey Warden sibling) to hold against Hawke, while we never see any indication that Jowan is willing to intentionally threaten a bystander.

And yes, I suppose if you think doing the only thing in his power, with a willing sacrifice, to end the situation that he indirectly caused, is a bad thing, then sure, he did something bad.  However there's no reasonable way to fault Jowan for this, in my opinion.  Any condemnation of what he did in that situation would be rooted in pure anti-blood magic fanaticism, or believing that a mother doesn't have the right to sacrifice herself for her son.

Most of the people of Thedas believe blood magic is automatically evil, but we as players when we're discussing things from a supposedly objective viewpoint need to keep in mind that is absolutely untrue, and blood magic is no more evil than say, explosives, which if used carelessly can harm their user or other non-targets just as much or more than the intended target.

#1371
TEWR

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Koyasha wrote...

Most of the people of Thedas believe blood magic is automatically evil, but we as players when we're discussing things from a supposedly objective viewpoint need to keep in mind that is absolutely untrue, and blood magic is no more evil than say, explosives, which if used carelessly can harm their user or other non-targets just as much or more than the intended target.


Exactly. Blood magic is only a tool. It's how it's used and by who uses it that matters. It isn't inherently evil.

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Angry and/or insane mages kill people.



similarly, guns don't kill people. Monkeys with guns kill people. (just joking around, don't take <-- this seriously)

#1372
hoorayforicecream

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Exactly. Blood magic is only a tool. It's how it's used and by who uses it that matters. It isn't inherently evil.

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Angry and/or insane mages kill people.


Well... blood magic is also illegal for a reason. Mages who learn blood magic almost invariably learn it from demons (since the demons are pretty much the only ones who still know it), and that's got a very bad track record. I mean... yeah. Guns don't kill people, but the authorities are still going to lock you up if you own guns that are only sold by criminals. :P

#1373
TEWR

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Exactly. Blood magic is only a tool. It's how it's used and by who uses it that matters. It isn't inherently evil.

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Angry and/or insane mages kill people.


Well... blood magic is also illegal for a reason. Mages who learn blood magic almost invariably learn it from demons (since the demons are pretty much the only ones who still know it), and that's got a very bad track record. I mean... yeah. Guns don't kill people, but the authorities are still going to lock you up if you own guns that are only sold by criminals. :P



true, but...

*does the thing where he rubs his fingers between his eyes*

As long as you're not implying blood magic first originated from demons, then I'm happy. there's actually no factual evidence to support that. All there is to rely on is belief.

Plus, Blood Magic can also be learned from books. That's what Jowan did because the damn Circle didn't lock away those books. If you're teaching that demons are not to be associated with, and you're teaching that blood magic is bad, by keeping books on the subject where apprentices can reach them you're defeating the whole point.

You can educate a man on the dangers of a bomb without giving him a detailed step-by-step walkthrough of how to create said bomb.

#1374
stjasonl1

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He got Justified when I stuck my knife in his back

#1375
kaotician

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

He wants mages to rise up and fight with him. Presumably, not as Arcane Horrors. You can't force war between Templars and Mages (both who live in the Gallows) if they're both dead.

Anders' actions weren't based around helping the mages win a war: indeed, he disclaims all responsiblity for being the one to help them, and says he'll await the arrival of whoever would. Anders was fixated on starting, not winning, a war, and whether the mages won freedom or were massacred wasn't important because both were preferable to continuing with the status quo. That's his own admission.


And where in my statement did I use the word "win"?

Where did I say you used the word "win"?


When you started arguing about a point I never made. 

I never claimed you made it. I was making a point about Anders, not you.

You made a point about that Anders wouldn't kill mages because they wouldn't be able to wage a war. Waging a war isn't Anders' point, however: escaping Templar control in life or death is.


Strawmanning yet again from Dean, I see.