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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Exactly. Blood magic is only a tool. It's how it's used and by who uses it that matters. It isn't inherently evil.

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Angry and/or insane mages kill people.

Well... blood magic is also illegal for a reason. Mages who learn blood magic almost invariably learn it from demons (since the demons are pretty much the only ones who still know it), and that's got a very bad track record. I mean... yeah. Guns don't kill people, but the authorities are still going to lock you up if you own guns that are only sold by criminals. 

true, but...

*does the thing where he rubs his fingers between his eyes*

As long as you're not implying blood magic first originated from demons, then I'm happy. there's actually no factual evidence to support that. All there is to rely on is belief.

Plus, Blood Magic can also be learned from books. That's what Jowan did because the damn Circle didn't lock away those books. If you're teaching that demons are not to be associated with, and you're teaching that blood magic is bad, by keeping books on the subject where apprentices can reach them you're defeating the whole point.

You can educate a man on the dangers of a bomb without giving him a detailed step-by-step walkthrough of how to create said bomb.

Actually there is a codex entry about the four greatest demons teaching the Tevinters the secrets about Blood Magic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Koyasha wrote...
The Resolutionists are the only large organization actively wanting to get that ball rolling at the moment, but once it begins, it seems reasonable to presume that many of the other mages joined in, since we are told that all the Circles have revolted.  There are, after all, many attempted revolutions which used similar events to try to incite revolution, but were not picked up on by enough people to actually do anything.

We do not yet know for sure how those revolutions started, if they started at all as Gaider's post here makes it sound moe ambiguous. It could be entirely possible that it was the Templars who began aggression or more repression that forced the mages into a corner.

I am not saying that there wouldn't be mages who would be in favor of Anders' act (though I'd doubt there is much support for it outside Resolutionists). What I am syaing is that he acted on his own, without a strong basis both vis a vis personal qualifications, and without some kind of legitimacy or standing amongst mages. It's these two facts that will never make Anders justified in my eyes.   Which is something we already agree on I think, even if we reach different conclusions.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Exactly. Blood magic is only a tool. It's how it's used and by who uses it that matters. It isn't inherently evil.

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Angry and/or insane mages kill people.

Well... blood magic is also illegal for a reason. Mages who learn blood magic almost invariably learn it from demons (since the demons are pretty much the only ones who still know it), and that's got a very bad track record. I mean... yeah. Guns don't kill people, but the authorities are still going to lock you up if you own guns that are only sold by criminals. 

true, but...

*does the thing where he rubs his fingers between his eyes*

As long as you're not implying blood magic first originated from demons, then I'm happy. there's actually no factual evidence to support that. All there is to rely on is belief.

Plus, Blood Magic can also be learned from books. That's what Jowan did because the damn Circle didn't lock away those books. If you're teaching that demons are not to be associated with, and you're teaching that blood magic is bad, by keeping books on the subject where apprentices can reach them you're defeating the whole point.

You can educate a man on the dangers of a bomb without giving him a detailed step-by-step walkthrough of how to create said bomb.

Actually there is a codex entry about the four greatest demons teaching the Tevinters the secrets about Blood Magic.

in DA:O or DA2? More importantly, was this Codex entry written by some person in the DA universe and not one that is fact? If so, this codex could be wrong, as it's one person's view on how blood magic originated.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It was written by a Tevinter mage, from the ancient time, if I'm not mistaken. I'll dig it up.

[EmperorSahlertz]

""The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones- Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born."" ―Unknown Mage

Okay not a Tevinter mage, but an unknown one. Never the less it tells about the "birth" of Blood Magic.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

""The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones- Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born."" ―Unknown Mage

Okay not a Tevinter mage, but an unknown one. Never the less it tells about the "birth" of Blood Magic.

huh.... Gaxkang and Xebenkeck, two beings we've faced. Awesome.

Alas, as this was written by someone, it could be false just as much as it could be true. A story can be true or false, so I can't take that as definite fact of how blood magic was created. at least not yet. But I'll take it under advisement as a possibility that blood magic may have in fact stemmed from demons

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

true, but...

*does the thing where he rubs his fingers between his eyes*

As long as you're not implying blood magic first originated from demons, then I'm happy. there's actually no factual evidence to support that. All there is to rely on is belief.

Plus, Blood Magic can also be learned from books. That's what Jowan did because the damn Circle didn't lock away those books. If you're teaching that demons are not to be associated with, and you're teaching that blood magic is bad, by keeping books on the subject where apprentices can reach them you're defeating the whole point.

You can educate a man on the dangers of a bomb without giving him a detailed step-by-step walkthrough of how to create said bomb.

I'd say that not locking the books on blood magic away was a mistake. Blood magic was supposedly (according to legend) taught by the old god Dumat to the Tevinters first, who then used it to summon and control demons and stuff, which ultimately resulted in the first Blight. 

Since then, it's been a couple of thousand years, with most practitioners having died for some reason or other. In its essence, blood magic isn't inherently evil... but because of the things it can be used for (taking control of other peoples' minds), the things it allows unscrupulous mages to do (use somebody else's blood for mana), and the general source (mostly from demons or mages who had at some point made deals with demons, Jowan wasn't very well-versed in blood magic), the Chantry (and most national governments) treat the unlawful use of blood magic as a capital offense... probably within good reason. It also happens to be the one form of magic the lyrium-enhanced templars don't have an inherent resistance against.

If they had some reasonable way of controlling and regulating blood mages, then things would be a lot easier. But since it's so easy to feign ignorance, and since it's so easy to just pretend nothing happened, it's much more difficult to regulate blood mages. So rather than try to enforce something like that, they simply outlaw it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

""The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones- Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born."" ―Unknown Mage

Okay not a Tevinter mage, but an unknown one. Never the less it tells about the "birth" of Blood Magic.

huh.... Gaxkang and Xebenkeck, two beings we've faced. Awesome.

Alas, as this was written by someone, it could be false just as much as it could be true. A story can be true or false, so I can't take that as definite fact of how blood magic was created. at least not yet. But I'll take it under advisement as a possibility that blood magic may have in fact stemmed from demons

So far all lore we got says that Blood Magic is learned from demons. There are tomes which had the subject of Blood Magic too, but maybe all they taught was how to contact demons and then how to refine the art. So far tehre is more evidence towards Blood Magic being taught by demons than by reading.

[Heavensrun]

David Gaider wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I'm sorry but that doesn't fly.  You can not remove a person's emotions and therefor their desire to be free (or even potential desire to be free) and then say that they are free not to obey.  Tranquil must obey unless told explicitly by higher authority not to because the emotional context that permits freewill is removed.  Calling tranquil free is a bitter joke.  They are as free to disobey as your IPod....and that makes them slaves.

If you wish. You're the one who claimed they were forced to stay-- I'm simply telling you they're not. They're free to go, and some in fact do if there's a logical place for them elsewhere (which is rare). They're certainly not blind to the fact that the world would not welcome them. I'm also not sure how you equate the loss of emotion with the loss of free will. If the Tranquil saw a reason not to follow an order, they would do so. They are not automotons.

That actually relates to something I noticed in the game.  It seemed to me like the Tranquil in DA2 were voiced to be less "lobotomy patient" as they were portrayed in DA:O, and voiced more with a sort of vulcan/computer like demeanor.  It rather changed the way I look at them, actually.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

""The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones- Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born."" ―Unknown Mage

Okay not a Tevinter mage, but an unknown one. Never the less it tells about the "birth" of Blood Magic.

huh.... Gaxkang and Xebenkeck, two beings we've faced. Awesome.

Alas, as this was written by someone, it could be false just as much as it could be true. A story can be true or false, so I can't take that as definite fact of how blood magic was created. at least not yet. But I'll take it under advisement as a possibility that blood magic may have in fact stemmed from demons

So far all lore we got says that Blood Magic is learned from demons. There are tomes which had the subject of Blood Magic too, but maybe all they taught was how to contact demons and then how to refine the art. So far tehre is more evidence towards Blood Magic being taught by demons than by reading.

I know, and if that's the case I really don't mind. But so far it's all conjecture to me, stories that were written down without enough proof. I'm not ruling it out, but stories shoudn't always be believed at face value. But that's just my take, so don't worry about it too much.

Now if a demon comes along and randomly says "Derp we gave you blood magic" then I'll be happy.

And now I want a demon to say Derp... great...

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

""The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones- Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born."" ―Unknown Mage

Okay not a Tevinter mage, but an unknown one. Never the less it tells about the "birth" of Blood Magic.

huh.... Gaxkang and Xebenkeck, two beings we've faced. Awesome.

Alas, as this was written by someone, it could be false just as much as it could be true. A story can be true or false, so I can't take that as definite fact of how blood magic was created. at least not yet. But I'll take it under advisement as a possibility that blood magic may have in fact stemmed from demons

So far all lore we got says that Blood Magic is learned from demons. There are tomes which had the subject of Blood Magic too, but maybe all they taught was how to contact demons and then how to refine the art. So far tehre is more evidence towards Blood Magic being taught by demons than by reading.

That is false.  We have lore that says that Blood magic originated from Demons, but we have at least one alternative set of lore that says that Dumat (an Old God) taught Tevinter the first bloodmagic.  In any event the Warden himself can learn bloodmagic from a book in DAA and aparently that's how Jowan learned it.  We also know that bloodmagic can be taught from person to person like any other magic.  Demons are the most common teacher, yes, but that's due to the fact the knowledge is dangerous to learn and teach given the prejudice against bloodmagic.

Bloodmagic is not intrinsically evil.  Sorry but it's not.  That's a lot of tripe.  Bloodmagic is dangerous both as a cheap form of alternative power (which is actually more powerful than normal magic) AND because it does seem offer very dangerous forms of magic that aren't available otherwise.

The sane thing to do (but the Chantry Zealots would never hear of it) would be to treat bloodmagic the same way we treat machine guns and oher military grade weapons today.  Make them (keep them) illegal for every mage but a tiny select few who use it (strictly supervised) to guard and regulate everyone else.  Putting a blanket ban on it just invites Demons and other evil people to use it as a tool against others (mages and non-mages alike).

-Polars

[EmperorSahlertz]

And how would you control the ones who can control minds? No, blood magic should be treated like diseases. Destroyed.

[cers001]

I think he was, he should've given time for the chantary to be evaced then torn the thing to shreds, but weather things for the mages should change defently yes, Anders did say that templars were encouraged by Meradith to abuse the mages, much like Admiral Cain did to Pegasus 7 on BSG and heck its even implied that ser Alrik raped female tranquil and Ethina did squat about it, and when i first seen what Anders does to the chantry apart form being shocked i said to my self "I guess when Andraste destoryed the imperium she was creating one of her own, the chantry" and i think it was needed, the mages are a abused in hoorable ways and no one bats an eye lid kill a few people a blow up a building and it Defcon 1!

[EmperorSahlertz]

No one is arguing Alrik was a ******. But to paint all Templars with the same brush as him is as stupid as claiming all mages are Maleficar. Also important of note is that both teh Divine AND Meredith denied the Tranquil Solution (take that Anders you paranoid freak (God I hate that freak)).

[TEWR]

actually, you can show Anders the papers y'know. He was right to be fearful of the "Tranquil Solution" at first. I mean, if I were a mage and I heard whisperings about some nutjob plan being taken to the Divine, I would want to kill the nutjob too. But I'd also hope that the Divine would be smart enought to say in response to the nutjob's proposal, "You're a ****ing nutjob"

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how would you control the ones who can control minds? No, blood magic should be treated like diseases. Destroyed.

If mind control magic were really as dominate as you claim, there should be no game at all.  The ancient magisters would have dominated everyone long ago and it would be game over.

The fact is that blood-domination seems to be hard, and doesn't have unlimited scope and exceptional people CAN resist it.  Does that mean it should be legal?  No.  (Although I can see a legit use for even for that against sa dangerous criminals).

However, given that mages can always contact demons and given that demons can always teach bloodmagic, trying to eradicate it is the worst possible thing to do.  It plays into the criminal's hands.  Regulated it.  Fight bloodmagic with bloodmagic.

Nothing is a perfect solution, but it's miles better than what we see now.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No one is arguing Alrik was a ******. But to paint all Templars with the same brush as him is as stupid as claiming all mages are Maleficar. Also important of note is that both teh Divine AND Meredith denied the Tranquil Solution (take that Anders you paranoid freak (God I hate that freak)).

Except if you take the papers to Cullen, he seems to think the idea has merit.  If you take them to the Grand Cleric, she says it was rejected but was worth considering for peace.  In both cases they are far more concerned/irate that Ser Alrik was murdered (really?  the foresics clearly show an attack...not a murder) and not about the gross violation of Chantry law.

Made me want to blow up the Grand Cleric right then and there.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how would you control the ones who can control minds? No, blood magic should be treated like diseases. Destroyed.

How did the Ancient Tevinter Imperium not only able to maintain itself for so long, but capable of expanding throughout Thedas, if it couldn't control those who can control minds within its ranks?

They might not have had a perfect solution, but I highly doubt the empire was plagued by infighting amongst its Magisters, who all practised blood magic, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to expand that much. And I didn't get the impression that there was one single Magister who controlled all magister minds. They must have had some way to regulate blood magic and mind control, or at the very least, check it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 avril 2011 - 10:24 .

[Wulfram]

Maybe blood magic allows you to resist blood magic?  Fine for the Magisters, no good for the rest of us.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how would you control the ones who can control minds? No, blood magic should be treated like diseases. Destroyed.

How did the Ancient Tevinter Imperium not only able to maintain itself for so long, but capable of expanding throughout Thedas, if it couldn't control those who can control minds within its ranks?

They might not have had a perfect solution, but I highly doubt the empire was plagued by infighting amongst its Magisters, who all practised blood magic, otherwise it wouldn't have been able to expand that much. And I didn't get the impression that there was one single Magister who controlled all magister minds. They must have had some way to regulate blood magic and mind control, or at the very least, check it.

This is why we need to learn more about Tevinter. All we can really do is speculate. That's why it helps to know the political structure, workings, social climate, and everything else about a nation. Once we know more, most of the "you're wrong and I'm right" arguments should go away....

oh how my optimism gets the better of me. thankfully though we haven't seen that type of argument on this thread for a while now.

[EmperorSahlertz]

To fight fire with fire is the quickest way to burn down the forest. The very notion is foolish. Better to study other forms of magic for a viable counter, like Adralla did (and succeeded at).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Maybe blood magic allows you to resist blood magic?  Fine for the Magisters, no good for the rest of us.

Maybe. Like Redux said, we'll have to wait for more info. And I've been asking for info on Acnient Tevinter for months.

[AshenEndymion]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To fight fire with fire is the quickest way to burn down the forest. The very notion is foolish. Better to study other forms of magic for a viable counter, like Adralla did (and succeeded at).

Fighting fire with fire is actually one of the faster ways to put out a large forest fire....

[TEWR]

AshenEndemion wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To fight fire with fire is the quickest way to burn down the forest. The very notion is foolish. Better to study other forms of magic for a viable counter, like Adralla did (and succeeded at).

Fighting fire with fire is actually one of the faster ways to put out a large forest fire....

doesn't it consume the oxygen quicker or something like that? It's been a while since I've taken a science course

[EmperorSahlertz]

Start a gas fire to burn out all the oxygen? Yeah, that's not the way to handle a forest fire. THere is way too much oxygen. It is a nice quick way to stop an appartment fire though. Ofcourse you are left with nothing but ruins to shift through afterwards. But hell living in ashes can be fun right?