1927 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
 But hell living in ashes can be fun right?

Don't girls find it attractive to be covered in a bit of ash?

Or was I tricked?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 avril 2011 - 10:37 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
 But hell living in ashes can be fun right?

Don't girls find it attractive to be covered in a bit of ash?

Or was I tricked?

You fell for that one too?  Damn women toying with my head, blood mages the lot of them!

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 06 avril 2011 - 10:42 .

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To fight fire with fire is the quickest way to burn down the forest. The very notion is foolish. Better to study other forms of magic for a viable counter, like Adralla did (and succeeded at).

Fighting fire with fire is actually one of the faster ways to put out a large forest fire....

doesn't it consume the oxygen quicker or something like that? It's been a while since I've taken a science course

No.  The use of high explosives to help fight a fire does that (creates a tempory vacuum that hopefully 'blows' the fire out).  What the poster is talking about is called  controlled "counter-burn".  You determine which way the fire is going, you dig trenches, try to get a favorable wind and then you burn all the fuel in front of the fire with a counter-burn so that when the counter-burn reaches the fire, you starve the fire of fuel in that direction.

It's used all the time in fighting large forest fires in very mountainous terrain.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AshenEndemion wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To fight fire with fire is the quickest way to burn down the forest. The very notion is foolish. Better to study other forms of magic for a viable counter, like Adralla did (and succeeded at).

Fighting fire with fire is actually one of the faster ways to put out a large forest fire....

doesn't it consume the oxygen quicker or something like that? It's been a while since I've taken a science course

No.  The use of high explosives to help fight a fire does that (creates a tempory vacuum that hopefully 'blows' the fire out).  What the poster is talking about is called  controlled "counter-burn".  You determine which way the fire is going, you dig trenches, try to get a favorable wind and then you burn all the fuel in front of the fire with a counter-burn so that when the counter-burn reaches the fire, you starve the fire of fuel in that direction.

It's used all the time in fighting large forest fires in very mountainous terrain.

-Polaris

huh.... that's pretty clever. you learn something new everyday. I'll probably forget it tomorrow, but hey! I learned it today!

[Heavensrun]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how would you control the ones who can control minds? No, blood magic should be treated like diseases. Destroyed.

If mind control magic were really as dominate as you claim, there should be no game at all.  The ancient magisters would have dominated everyone long ago and it would be game over.

The fact is that blood-domination seems to be hard, and doesn't have unlimited scope and exceptional people CAN resist it.  Does that mean it should be legal?  No.  (Although I can see a legit use for even for that against sa dangerous criminals).

However, given that mages can always contact demons and given that demons can always teach bloodmagic, trying to eradicate it is the worst possible thing to do.  It plays into the criminal's hands.  Regulated it.  Fight bloodmagic with bloodmagic.

Nothing is a perfect solution, but it's miles better than what we see now.

-Polaris

Hell, for that matter, if blood magic was -taught-, maybe mages would be less tempted to turn to demons to gain it's power.

[Heavensrun]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To fight fire with fire is the quickest way to burn down the forest. The very notion is foolish. Better to study other forms of magic for a viable counter, like Adralla did (and succeeded at).

As mentioned, you -are- aware that firefighters use fire to control brush fires all the time?

Edit:  I see others beat me to this.

But I'll set that issue aside anyway, because you know what?  No analogy is perfect, so rather than arguing about whether it's a good idea to fight fire with fire (though the answer is "yes, if you know what you're doing."), how about we approach the subject of whether it's a good idea to fight blood magic with blood magic?

Modifié par Heavensrun, 07 avril 2011 - 01:05 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Heavensrun wrote...

Hell, for that matter, if blood magic was -taught-, maybe mages would be less tempted to turn to demons to gain it's power.

Who'd do the teaching? The mages who made deals with the demons for it?

Blood Magic is outlawed for a lot of reasons. It's hard to detect, it's easy to abuse, and it involves consorting with demons most of the time. In addition, it allows mages to bypass their inherent magical limits without lyrium, because they can use other peoples' blood. The Chantry takes huge exception to this, because the Chantry controls all legitimate trade of Lyrium in Thedas. So... yeah, it might be better overall if there was some way to learn blood magic while under proper observation. But regulation of blood magic is really hard due to the inherent nature of it, and on top of that you'd have to convince the Chantry to give up their stranglehold on the only other source of magical batteries. 

[IanPolaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Hell, for that matter, if blood magic was -taught-, maybe mages would be less tempted to turn to demons to gain it's power.

Who'd do the teaching? The mages who made deals with the demons for it?

Blood Magic is outlawed for a lot of reasons. It's hard to detect, it's easy to abuse, and it involves consorting with demons most of the time. In addition, it allows mages to bypass their inherent magical limits without lyrium, because they can use other peoples' blood. The Chantry takes huge exception to this, because the Chantry controls all legitimate trade of Lyrium in Thedas. So... yeah, it might be better overall if there was some way to learn blood magic while under proper observation. But regulation of blood magic is really hard due to the inherent nature of it, and on top of that you'd have to convince the Chantry to give up their stranglehold on the only other source of magical batteries. 

Really the only good reason I saw in that was the Chantry's monopoly of the Lyrium trade, but as of the end of DA2, the Chantry doesn't have much say in that anymore do they?  Given that any mage can learn bloodmagic by making a deal with a demon (setting aside whether it' a good idea or not), it makes no sense to outlaw it completely.  That only insures that the most criminal, evil, and vile mages have the most powerful magic (sound like Kirkwall anyone?)

The fact is bloodmagic doesn't have to have anything to do with demons.  It usually does now because it's the easiest way to get the lore.  It is dangerous which is why it needs to be strongly regulated, but not inherently evil.  As for bypassing lyrium, I think that got blown up along with the Kirkwall Chantry.

-Polaris

[Dean_the_Young]

kaotician wrote...

Strawmanning yet again from Dean, I see.

Why don't you go back to failing to support your own argument elsewhere, kaotician?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[TEWR]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

kaotician wrote...

Strawmanning yet again from Dean, I see.

Why don't you go back to failing to support your own argument elsewhere, kaotician?

in the words of Michael Kelso, "BURN!!!!!"


I'm not taking sides, but that was pretty good I'll admit

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Hell, for that matter, if blood magic was -taught-, maybe mages would be less tempted to turn to demons to gain it's power.

Who'd do the teaching? The mages who made deals with the demons for it?

Blood Magic is outlawed for a lot of reasons. It's hard to detect, it's easy to abuse, and it involves consorting with demons most of the time. In addition, it allows mages to bypass their inherent magical limits without lyrium, because they can use other peoples' blood. The Chantry takes huge exception to this, because the Chantry controls all legitimate trade of Lyrium in Thedas. So... yeah, it might be better overall if there was some way to learn blood magic while under proper observation. But regulation of blood magic is really hard due to the inherent nature of it, and on top of that you'd have to convince the Chantry to give up their stranglehold on the only other source of magical batteries. 

except, it's not required to use other peoples' blood. You can also use your own! *gives thumbs up while making this face *

Only the most powerful and dangerous spells require copious amounts of blood.


EDIT: I just thought of the solution! Start a blood bank Thedas! You have freezing spells! You have people who bleed! It's so crazy it just might work!

"Uh yes, I'd like to perform some blood magic. Can I get some Type O for the go?"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 avril 2011 - 01:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
except, it's not required to use other peoples' blood. You can also use your own! *gives thumbs up while making this face *

You can even impale yourself and survive!
Blood magic is awesome.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
except, it's not required to use other peoples' blood. You can also use your own! *gives thumbs up while making this face *

You can even impale yourself and survive!
Blood magic is awesome.

Grace impaling herself and living was just a WTF moment. Also how Thrask died from being slammed into the ground when he was 2-3 feet above it is also a mystery. He wasn't bent back far enough for his back to break.

See also the quote you quoted me on, I found the solution!

[KnightofPhoenix]

I propose to drain people like Grace dry and store their blood somewhere. Freeze, then heat up with fire spells to use. On the fly!

[Heavensrun]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Hell, for that matter, if blood magic was -taught-, maybe mages would be less tempted to turn to demons to gain it's power.

Who'd do the teaching? The mages who made deals with the demons for it?

Blood Magic is outlawed for a lot of reasons. It's hard to detect, it's easy to abuse, and it involves consorting with demons most of the time. In addition, it allows mages to bypass their inherent magical limits without lyrium, because they can use other peoples' blood. The Chantry takes huge exception to this, because the Chantry controls all legitimate trade of Lyrium in Thedas. So... yeah, it might be better overall if there was some way to learn blood magic while under proper observation. But regulation of blood magic is really hard due to the inherent nature of it, and on top of that you'd have to convince the Chantry to give up their stranglehold on the only other source of magical batteries. 

I'll point out, firstly, that you can learn from a book.  In fact, there's no indication that learning blood magic from demons is more common than learning from books.

As for the other points, Blood magic is -easy- to detect!  The mages hack their own veins open!  It's hard to detect when the mage, say, isn't -doing- it, but that's true for magic in -general-.  0_o

Additionally, whether the Chantry would -want- to do so or not isn't really my point.  Of course they wouldn't.  In fact, I honestly wonder if the negative rap blood magic gets is deliberate propaganda by the Chantry to discourage people from circumvanting their Lyrium monopoly.

[Heavensrun]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
except, it's not required to use other peoples' blood. You can also use your own! *gives thumbs up while making this face *

You can even impale yourself and survive!
Blood magic is awesome.

Grace impaling herself and living was just a WTF moment. Also how Thrask died from being slammed into the ground when he was 2-3 feet above it is also a mystery. He wasn't bent back far enough for his back to break.

See also the quote you quoted me on, I found the solution!

Because, y'know, the laws of physics totally matter when it comes to discussing magic.  ;p  But for the sake of argument, it doesn't matter how high off the ground Thrask was if gravity wasn't the only force acting on him.  (and it wasn't.)

[TEWR]

Heavensrun wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
except, it's not required to use other peoples' blood. You can also use your own! *gives thumbs up while making this face *

You can even impale yourself and survive!
Blood magic is awesome.

Grace impaling herself and living was just a WTF moment. Also how Thrask died from being slammed into the ground when he was 2-3 feet above it is also a mystery. He wasn't bent back far enough for his back to break.

See also the quote you quoted me on, I found the solution!

Because, y'know, the laws of physics totally matter when it comes to discussing magic.  ;p  But for the sake of argument, it doesn't matter how high off the ground Thrask was if gravity wasn't the only force acting on him.  (and it wasn't.)

Well to an extent they will matter obviously, but if his blood boiled within his veins or his heart exploded or he suddenly came down with a bad toe infection that ended up spreading rapidly is what caused his death I'd be fine, if I was given that as an explanation.

the lack of one though is what makes me go WTF. Instead it's just "He's dead. DEAL WITH IT."

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I propose to drain people like Grace dry and store their blood somewhere. Freeze, then heat up with fire spells to use. On the fly!

I second this!

edit: wait... is this another one of your tongue-in-cheek comments KoP?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 avril 2011 - 03:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Heavensrun wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Hell, for that matter, if blood magic was -taught-, maybe mages would be less tempted to turn to demons to gain it's power.

Who'd do the teaching? The mages who made deals with the demons for it?

Blood Magic is outlawed for a lot of reasons. It's hard to detect, it's easy to abuse, and it involves consorting with demons most of the time. In addition, it allows mages to bypass their inherent magical limits without lyrium, because they can use other peoples' blood. The Chantry takes huge exception to this, because the Chantry controls all legitimate trade of Lyrium in Thedas. So... yeah, it might be better overall if there was some way to learn blood magic while under proper observation. But regulation of blood magic is really hard due to the inherent nature of it, and on top of that you'd have to convince the Chantry to give up their stranglehold on the only other source of magical batteries. 

I'll point out, firstly, that you can learn from a book.  In fact, there's no indication that learning blood magic from demons is more common than learning from books.

As for the other points, Blood magic is -easy- to detect!  The mages hack their own veins open!  It's hard to detect when the mage, say, isn't -doing- it, but that's true for magic in -general-.  0_o

Additionally, whether the Chantry would -want- to do so or not isn't really my point.  Of course they wouldn't.  In fact, I honestly wonder if the negative rap blood magic gets is deliberate propaganda by the Chantry to discourage people from circumvanting their Lyrium monopoly.

And I'll just point out that you have absolutely no clue as to what is written in those books. For all we know the book only teaches how to contact demons who will be willing to teach. So the whole "book point" is rather moot until we can actually read one (which wont happen).

And Blood Magic is hard to detect. Even if you witness a Blood Mage doing his thing, he could just erase that memory from your mind, and no one would be any the wiser. Only if a Blood Mage do his magic in public might it be easily identified, but you can't detect a Blood Mage.

Or it might be because Blood Magic is dangerous, for every part involved.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
except, it's not required to use other peoples' blood. You can also use your own! *gives thumbs up while making this face *

You can even impale yourself and survive!
Blood magic is awesome.

Grace impaling herself and living was just a WTF moment. Also how Thrask died from being slammed into the ground when he was 2-3 feet above it is also a mystery. He wasn't bent back far enough for his back to break.

See also the quote you quoted me on, I found the solution!

Because, y'know, the laws of physics totally matter when it comes to discussing magic.  ;p  But for the sake of argument, it doesn't matter how high off the ground Thrask was if gravity wasn't the only force acting on him.  (and it wasn't.)

Well to an extent they will matter obviously, but if his blood boiled within his veins or his heart exploded or he suddenly came down with a bad toe infection that ended up spreading rapidly is what caused his death I'd be fine, if I was given that as an explanation.

the lack of one though is what makes me go WTF. Instead it's just "He's dead. DEAL WITH IT."

Well Grace is obviously a Force Mage. Seeing how my force mage have lifted people to about the same height and they have exploded in a shower of blood, I dare say that it was not just gravity affecting Thrask.

[Deztyn]

You know, I don't know why people blame 'Chantry propaganda' for Blood Magic being considered a great evil. Realistically, it's not as simple as drain your ally, kill enemies, toss your companion a potion or switch to spirit healer and everything's fine at the end of the day. That's game mechanics. It's not ****** your finger for power. You are using someone's life force to fuel your magic. You are sucking out someone's life for power. I think that's worth repeating. In italics, bolded and underlined.

Blood magic might not be innately evil and it might have some good uses, but innately morally dubious isn't a stretch. At all.

Modifié par Deztyn, 07 avril 2011 - 10:41 .

[sonoko]

I don't think that using any form of blood magic is more evil than for example burn people alive by fireballs - any mage can do it without demonic help or sinister rituals and it isn't considered an awful thing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Killing in all its forms are considered evil...

[Deztyn]

sonoko wrote...

I don't think that using any form of blood magic is more evil than for example burn people alive by fireballs - any mage can do it without demonic help or sinister rituals and it isn't considered an awful thing.

Unless you're talking about burning yourself or your allies alive with fireballs for the purposes of a cheap powerup it's not the same thing.

[tiernanls]

i dont buy the whole "most learn it from a book" argument to debunk that blood magic does not come from demons. it is however rather obvious to me that a demon is not required to learn blood magic. still though, whos not to say the first mage that learned blood magic from a demon didnt just simply write down what he/she learned and mass produced it? sort of like a blood magic bible. taking a hard line stance either way about its origins requires a great deal of assumption and belief in heresay one way or the other.

but some things to consider in regards to blood magic:

i think its pretty telling that while its not outlawed in tevinter, and is openly practiced, not all tevinter mages use it. this much is made quite clear by fenris. this may not mean anything ultiamtely, but i personally believe that in a realm in which your status is determined by the power of your magic every mage would practice blood magic if it were in fact the most powerful form, or if it was not extremely dangerous.

however that doesnt make a case for blood magic being inherently evil. what does make a case for it being inherently evil is what is attracted to blood magic. now there are spirits in the fade like justice, who in and of themselves are not evil, and there are the demons, who are inherently evil. while anders is himself a kind of abomination (as was wynn technically), his own spirit possesion did not lead him to condoning blood magic. in fact justice was just as hard set against blood magic as he was the templars. however while not every mage learns blood magic from a demon (tho a great deal do including merrill admittedly), everywhere there is a blood mage a demon follows. they are attracted to it. and all mages are suseptable to the possesion of a demon and not always is it voluntary. even the jowan argument falls to this. while jowan did not learn from a demon, it can be easily argued that the demon that took eamons boy was attracted there by the presence of a blood mage practicing magic. the evidence doesnt lie. everywhere you go in the game that you encounter a blood mage, the demon is not far behind. even in merrill's case.

but to me the most telling evidence that blood magic is inherently evil is what it requires to use it. true, it doesnt require blood from anyone other than yourself should you shoose to be selective in your source. but blood is still life. blood is the driving force of all walking talking intelligent life. every living advanced organism requires it to live. a body can still be alive without brain function so long as the blood keeps flowing through the body. the heart is the most important vital organ because of its function. to pump living blood through your body and your brain constantly. so blood in a manner of speaking, is life. you cannot be alive without. so whether its yours or someone elses blood magic MUST consume life to be practiced, and its THAT that makes it evil.

than the argument of its use comes down to the question in the original post. is any act be it evil or not, justified in order to meet an end. some would say that yes, it is depending on the end. and yes its true, that in extreme cases of oppresion sometimes a violent conflict is the only means to reach that end. but back to my earlier post on the topic i would reiterate that the second you are willing to sacrifice innocent life you lose the moral high ground. there is no justification for it. its terrorism. plain and simple. you have become in many ways worse than that you were fighting against. you want to place blame on elthina, then fine. i dont agree but i can understand the argument. but what about the mother sitting in pew 3 praying for the health of a sick child or the other innocents just around the immediate vacinity of the chantry? how is their death justified? sure elthina was the target, but what anders did was anything but a simple and sweet assasination. he took innocent life. he made more enemies. no matter how oppressed anyone feels mages were he made it WORSE. you cannot argue that. there is no justification.

that being said i think you can argue some justification for blood magic individually, just as the wardens justify it. if your willing to take your own life to stop an enemy, or if you have willing comrades that tell you you can take theirs to stop a horrible enemy than yeah. i can see it being justified in certain VERY particular circumstances. but that doesnt make it less evil. just like having a good reason to go to war doesnt make taking life a good thing. it just means the particpants were that desperate in their struggle. which is not the description i would use to describe 99.9% of the blood mage population in kirkwall. they were practicing well before the time of desperation. meredith may have gone mad once she got the idol, but before that, in act one she was definetly justified for clamping down in the manner in which she did. and what orsino ultimately turned out to be made her that much more right.

at the end of the day i think its much easier to argue that meredith was justified than it is to argue that anders was. but thats just me.